166 replies to this topic

[rancho_gordo]

If the KA meat grinder doesn't do it for you, you could try the grain mill attachment, although it sounds like most folks feel a stand-alone grinder would be a better option.

The grain mill seems to be for "low moisture" grains. Do you think the meat attachment would work? Why not? Chris, which one are you referring to?

[rancho_gordo]

I have this one. Called a "food grinder". It's in a very nice box on the shelf never used. Is this the one? Can you adjust the grind?

[Chris Amirault]

I have this one. Called a "food grinder". It's in a very nice box on the shelf never used. Is this the one? Can you adjust the grind?

This is indeed the one. Take it off the shelf, Steve, and get crackin; I never buy ground meat any more and have been making sausages like there's no tomorrow.

There are I think two (maybe three) different grind plates (if that's the right word), and you can adjust the speed, of course, which does make a slight difference. I was thinking that I'd run it through the plate with the smallest holes a couple of times, see how that goes.

I don't have a food grinder -- but I can say that I will be tossed out of my house on my fat arse if I even suggest that we should buy one.

[bavila]

A few summers ago at a friend's lake house in Wisconsin, I was one of about 10 people lead by a native of Colombia in a mass empanada production, including making our own fresh masa.

Talk about labor intensive! I hope you are committed Chris. Afterward, I calculated that the empanadas had to have been the most "expensive" thing we ate that week given the labor hours that went into it. I regret to report that the empanadas did not seem worth the trouble. Perhaps in the hands of a better cook they would have been something to write home about.

That said, Chris, I'm sure you can do a better job with seasoning, etc. And although I can't tell you where exactly he got the corn, it had to have been somewhere in Wisconsin, or more likely Miami --- where this guy lived.

[ScorchedPalate]

I have this one. Called a "food grinder". It's in a very nice box on the shelf never used. Is this the one? Can you adjust the grind?

I, too, love mine. Haven't bought ground meat in years, and I love making my own sausage.

You can only adjust the grind by changing from the medium die to the coarse die... so far as I know, there are no other die options.

~A

[Gabriel Lewis]

For a long time I have been pushing myself to get my act together such that I can make tamales. I am now in a relatively good position to make tamales, but my quandary is this: how to prepare the masa from scratch? If I am going to make all the effort, I would like my tamales to turn out as best as I can possibly make them.

After much reading, here's what I know:

I have some corn which is corn for posole. When my aunt stopped by the other day (she is mexican), she exclaimed "ah you have the corn for posole!" and told me about some happy memories involving posole and some particular celebration in september. I believe this corn has already been nixtamalized, it is all white except the tip, and looks like the corn in this picture.

Assuming my corn has been nixtamalized, can anyone provide any advice or a general procedure for turning it into masa para tamales? I found this thread digging through the back pages of this forum which has been helpful, but leaves some questions unanswered. The member in question who originall performed the experiment, Bimbo Jones hasn't been active in several months.

I have looked through many websites and guides and done a lot of reading, and I think I have a pretty good idea of what to do, but really I'm looking for a little "hand-holding" as I'm still a little uncertain..

[Jay Francis]

It's really exciting to hear that you are going to tackle making your own masa. Although I have slaked corn in Mexico, I haven't ever tackled grinding corn into masa in my home. I default to the Maseca, masa para tamales, which is an excellent product. In a class I once had with Patricia Quintana, she recommended a 50/50 mix of regular Maseca and Maseca para tamales.

I had the pleasure of doing some recipe testing for Robb Walsh's The Tex-Mex Cookbook. I am very proud of the tamal recipe he and I developed for the book using Maseca as our base. Here's hoping, if you default to Maseca, you will have great success with this recipe, too.

[Jmahl]

My wife tells me that if you already have access to maize that has been nixtamalized or (soaked in lime) after it has been rinsed and drained just grind. On the ranch in Northern Mexico we use a hand grinder and you grind it twice. My resident expert says Kitchenaid makes a grain grinder that also works. Also your grind should be fine but not as fine as you would use for tortillas. If you want to make tortillas see the thread "Tortillas 1,2,3." Fresh ground masa makes wonderful tortillas.

Enjoy,

Jmahl

[Gabriel Lewis]

Thanks for your responses everyone.

It seems another aspect that I didn't quite understand has become clear. Fresh masa is prepared in the same way as Maseca would be except that the corn has been freshly ground. Feel free to enlighten me if I've misspoken.

I don't know that I have anything capable of grinding the corn I have, this stuff seems pretty rock solid and all I have is a small coffee grinder for spices and a food processor. Unfortunately, I am not in a financial position to make any grinding purchases right now but I will keep the suggestions in mind.

In the thread I mentioned previously Bimbo Jones simply simmered (and also soaked overnight I believe) the corn until it seemed soft enough to grind, and then ground it in her food processor. I'm not sure if she added more water to her dough afterwards, I am curious at to the details as it seemed to work well for her.

Jay - Thank you for the suggestion and encouragement. Maseca para tamales (pink bag) doesn't seem to be available here, so I am left only with Maseca para tortillas (white bag). Is the recipe you mention simply this mix or is there a link to it somewhere on the web? I have looked at some recipes for masa para tamales but am as of yet unsure how I am going to turn the basic masa (ground corn) into the actual masa for the finished tamales.

[Jmahl]

Maseca is already ground and dehydrated Masa. To make fresh masa you need dry corn, dehusked, soaked in water overnight with lime added to break down the cellulose coating of the kernals.

A good source of fresh masa is a tortilla factory -- just tell them you want a courser grind. Use the masa quickly -- it has a short use life.

Good luck,

Jmahl

[Gabriel Lewis]

Thanks Jmahl. Once the corn has been soaked and nixtamalized (cellulose layer taken off) is it ground straight away or dried and then ground? I wondered because usually when grinding you want your grain to be as dry as possible, although it doesn't seem this would be a problem with a traditional metate.

I just tried grinding up a small batch in my coffee grinder, and suprisingly it worked quite well. I didn't try to get it as fine as I could but it ended up a little coarser than my maseca (white bag). I made two small tortillas with it and they seemed pretty good, although I'm not sure they were better than Maseca; it may be the corn I have isn't quite fresh enough. I'm going to experiment a little more and do a side by side comparison, and also try grinding the corn in my food processor.

I did try asking the local tortilla factory for some of their masa, but they were unwilling to part with any. It would have been nice, but I am really enjoying the process of learning about masa and doing everything myself. Also, I am a bit suspicious of the quality as their tortillas are worse than mine made from maseca, and I'm pretty sure they make them daily. Whether this is a result of the corn used, the way they or made, or the freshness I do not know.

[gfron1]

For the good of the cause I'm bringing Gabe's and my PM discussion into the thread. I did fresh masa for the Pastry & Baking Cookoff Round 2 (Mincemeat Tamales).

I had previously only made tamales from the powdered masa - not even the same thing as the fresh stuff. My fresh masa started with frozen posole at the advice of a friend who lived in MX for many years. She had me grind the posole and fresh corn in a Cuisinart which gave a great consistency and taste. In my PMs I've suggested that Gabe seek out the frozen posole versus canned, and so now I wonder the difference between frozen and dried.

[Gabriel Lewis]

Indeed, Rob (grfon1) has been very helpful. On my next trip to the latin markets in the area I will check for frozen posole. I suspect the fact that Rob's posole had not yet been nixtamalized (outer shell removed), along with the fact that it was frozen, worked in his favor to preserve the freshness and quality of the corn.

Rob, I just thought of a detail I hadn't asked you before. When you thawed the frozen posole to what extent was the corn hydrated, was it closer to fully dried or fresh? And, had the corn already been treated such that all you had to do was rub off the outer shell, or did you have to include a step involving treatment with lime?

[gfron1]

The posole already had the lime. It wasn't dry by any means, but it was hard. The hardness reminded me of when I've made posole soup where the corn was fully rehydrated, but again, with the skin. So...hard if you pinched it between your fingers, but not between the teeth - surely there's a culinary term for that description

[Jmahl]

When we did it, the kernels were damp after draining but not dried in any way. My inlaws have been growing their own corn and making fresh tortillas every day for generations so you can be sure they know what they are doing.

Keep experimenting. It is worth the effort.

Jmahl

[rancho_gordo]

Somone PM'd me about this thread. I wish I'd known sooner.

From my experience:

Maseca is a fine product. Until you are really skilled at tamales I would recommend you use the tamal version (as opposed to the finer tortilla version) of Maseca. You have plenty of other things to worry about making tamales, like sourcing good manteca and folding techniques.

If you insist on making your own masa, you need to find large field corn that is dried, soak it in water and Cal and then rub the skins off and then grind it (while moist). This is great but it's also for channel swimmers, if you know what I mean.

My posole product is known as "prepared hominy". You soak it and simmer it and it explodes like a flower and is beyond delicious in a stew known by the same name. It is from the American southwest and indigenous to the Native Americans. I've never seen anything like it in Mexico. They tend to use a bigger kernel and more often than not, the product is canned. I think the posole is a nicer product and has a nicer "tooth" to it. The kernels aren't obscenly large, either. In Mexixo, pozole (with a "z") refers only to the dish. In the US, posole (with an "s") refers to the dish and to hominy. But unless you are an expert at masa textures for tamales, I wouldn't go this route.

If you to have a tortilla factory near you, you will be able to buy masa para tamales, the coarser grain, but double check. There's a better than good chance they're using Maseca and then you might as well do it yourself.

[andiesenji]

I knew you would have the answer, Rancho gordo: I suggested Gabriel PM you because your info in all the earlier threads that discussed tamales was so helpful.

[andiesenji]

My neighbors, who are from Durango, Mexico, used to use a hand-cranked meat grinder. Now they have a Rival that I gave them.
First, She soaks the dry corn until the skin softens and begins to split, then dumps it into a bag that looks like burlap and lays the bag on an outside table and sort of massages the bag to loosen the skin from the kernels. She then dumps it into a big pan and washes and loosens the remaining skins, which float to the top and are skimmed off.
She dumps the corn into a big colander and starts putting it through the grinder with the large-hole plate. When the batch is finished, she switches to the plate with the small holes and grinds it again.
She gave me a bowl full yesterday - when I get home I will take a photo so you can see the consistency.

[Gabriel Lewis]

Thanks for your input everyone, I have been very busy lately and haven't had as much time for cooking as I might like. However, I am no relatively caught and have turned my attention back to tamales.

I've decided to take Rancho Gordo's excellent advice and take a bottom-up approach rather than a top down. In my zeal sometimes I get obsessed with perfecting every aspect of a process and lose sight of important details like learning the specifics of the technique first.

Unfortunately, maseca para tamales doesn't seem to be available in my area. The white bags are plentiful, but the pink bags seem nowhere to be found. I will check agian at my local tortilla factory to see if they have any masa para tamales, but I don't really want to go the pre-prepared route.

andies: Thanks so much for writing about your neighbours procedure. As I said I will make them with maseca just to get it done once, but once I have attained basic mastery I think I will turn my attention to the masa, and I always welcome any information I can get! Luckily for me, someone was kind enough to bring this thread to rancho's attention (somehow your earlier suggestion slipped by me or was forgotten). I might add I have nothing but great admiration and respect for all the things I've seen you do or talk about through reading old e-gullet threads.

If you insist on making your own masa, you need to find large field corn that is dried, soak it in water and Cal and then rub the skins off and then grind it (while moist). This is great but it's also for channel swimmers, if you know what I mean.

Maybe it is because I have never acutally done this, or maybe I'm just crazy, but strangely enough this doesn't sound that difficult to me. What exactly is so difficult about this? It took me a long time to figure out exactly what happens in the process of making fresh masa from reading different bits and pieces, but now that I do understand it seems relatively simple. I know that if I knew somewhere I could get ready access to the right corn here in montreal I would jump on it.

You have plenty of other things to worry about making tamales, like sourcing good manteca and folding techniques.

My manteca is fairly good I think; I get fat from a local pig farmer who raises excellent pigs, and then render it myself at home. Is the savory lard (amber-coloured when rendered and still liquid) the most appropriate kind for tamales?

You mention folding techniques. I recall reading that one person whips their masa in a mixer first to make it light in fluffy, and another recipe specifies kneading until a chunk of masa "floats in cold water". Would you be willing to talk a little bit more about the different techniques or perhaps provide a description of one of the most basic ones?

I hope I'm not coming off as obnoxious, I like to really go into the details, and I know some people don't feel the same way. Obviously, I am a tamal-making virgin but I'd like to gather as much information as I can before I embark. I want to start with the most basic, open ended version of tamales with each element executed to the best of my ability.

I really appreciate any and all help your willing to give, but as you may have guessed, I feed on details.

Edited by Gabriel Lewis, 06 November 2006 - 07:17 AM.

[esperanza]

If you insist on making your own masa, you need to find large field corn that is dried, soak it in water and Cal and then rub the skins off and then grind it (while moist). This is great but it's also for channel swimmers, if you know what I mean.

Maybe it is because I have never acutally done this, or maybe I'm just crazy, but strangely enough this doesn't sound that difficult to me. What exactly is so difficult about this? It took me a long time to figure out exactly what happens in the process of making fresh masa from reading different bits and pieces, but now that I do understand it seems relatively simple. I know that if I knew somewhere I could get ready access to the right corn here in montreal I would jump on it.

You have plenty of other things to worry about making tamales, like sourcing good manteca and folding techniques.

My manteca is fairly good I think; I get fat from a local pig farmer who raises excellent pigs , and then render it myself at home. Is the savory lard (amber-coloured when rendered and still liquid) the most appropriate kind for tamales?

Obviously, I am a tamale-virgin...

It isn't so much that making tamales is difficult, it's just extremely time-and-energy consuming. That's why Rancho compared it most aptly to swimming the channel.

Here in Mexico, the process of making tamales is usually shared among several women during the course of a day or two: one day to make the nixtamal (the cooked field corn), another day to grind it and prepare the tamales.

Your manteca sounds perfect, how wonderful that you can make it yourself.

And FYI (because I am a picky stickler), the singular of tamales is tamal. One tamal, two tamales.

Muchísima suerte con el proyecto!

Edited by esperanza, 05 November 2006 - 10:14 PM.

[Gabriel Lewis]

Muchas Gracias Esperanaza, su estímulo me anima.

(Hope this makes sense, my spanish is very poor at best)

Thank you for pointing out the difference between the plural and single forms of the word; I would agree that it is important to use correct terminology.

I think I have a grasp of the degree of work involved, but for a number of reasons, this doesn't really faze me. Past large scale cooking projects have taught me to carefully assess the degree of effort required (think 8-course meals prepared in a single day, with relatively little cooking experience, how they were not more disastrous than they were, I do not know). But it is always good to be reminded, as Rancho aptly put it there is little point going to all the effort if I do not even know how to assemble the tamales correctly. What I was trying to figure out was if there was something difficult about the nixtamalization process I was missing, other than simply the scale of the project.

Now I am off to the market. (crosses his fingers that they still have corn and poblanos)

[andiesenji]

Here's something interesting, not that I am recommending it, I came across the ad and thought "there are a lot of very clever people out there, figuring out how to do things with less effort - and in quantity.

Knowing how much work it is when my neighbors prepare a large batch of tamales (I have helped and it is very much like a production line) I showed the ad to Mr. Obregon and he is checking the web site because he thinks it would be a great Christmas gift for his wife.

I finally got around to reading the October Chile Pepper Magazine (which has some great recipes) and saw the ad for Tamale King.com The Perfect Tamale machine!

Also offering a bunch of spice mixtures.

[andiesenji]

I am following this topic with interest.  I would love to see your photo, andiesenji.

I forgot to take a photo of the masa before I used it (for tamale pie).
However my neighbors are having a huge gathering today and made a huge batch of tamales. They did have some masa left so I "inherited" it since I have plenty of room in my fridge.

I made six flans and also baked several sheet pans full of pan dulce that Leila, one of the daughters, prepared.
The celebration is going to continue for the entire weekend.
The homemade masa - she used a yellow corn grown on their ranch in Durango. They brought back two 100 pound bags week before last. She gave me enough to fill this 2-quart container. She started out with a 5-gallon pail full.


And the flan:

Edited by andiesenji, 23 November 2006 - 06:11 PM.

[andiesenji]

I am so stuffed full of food that I can barely move. It is a good thing we have a gate in the wall between our properties because there is no way I would have been able to walk the long way around. I went over at 12:30 and returned at 4:30. They had over 100 people there for dinner and most are still there. There are 4 motorhomes parked in my north driveway with another three outside my front wall next to the road. There are at least that many on their property and in front of their place. It's a good thing were are in a rural area, this would never work in an urban neighborhood.

[bjcohan]

I will check agian at my local tortilla factory to see if they have any masa para tamales, but I don't really want to go the pre-prepared route.

Gabriel, if your local tortilla factory does, in fact, grind their own masa, you can do what we did when I lived in Mexico. Take them your nixtamalized corn and have them grind it for you. Then remember, on your next trip to Mexico, to bring back a hand-cranked molino. I have a big old heavy one that my sister-in-law sent me which clamps to the table and works like a charm. I don't recommend using the metate - it takes just too damned much elbow grease for my taste!

My manteca is fairly good I think; I get fat from a local pig farmer who raises excellent pigs, and then render it myself at home. Is the savory lard (amber-coloured when rendered and still liquid) the most appropriate kind for tamales?

Your manteca sounds perfectly lovely. I save all my pork fat in the freezer and then render it myself as well. It's just fine.

You mention folding techniques. I recall reading that one person whips their masa in a mixer first to make it light in fluffy, and another recipe specifies kneading until a chunk of masa "floats in cold water". Would you be willing to talk a little bit more about the different techniques or perhaps provide a description of one of the most basic ones?

I learned to make tamales on my second day after arriving in Mexico, 17 years ago when I lived and studied there. The woman I lived with and several of our neighbors came over and we made a huge batch. We whipped the masa in a large earthenware cazuela using a bare right forearm and a clenched fist. It was quite a workout! We also had music playing and sang as we worked. All of the women told me that this is essential for the masa to taste right, as it "knows" when one is in good humor - shades of "Como agua para chocolate," ¿verdad? I still do it that way, and my Mexican husband (the chef) laughs at the sight of this guera loca beating the crap out of the masa in a cazuela de barro. It works, though, and he devours my tamales. Can't mess with success, right?

BTW, although I don't have the tamal-making neighbors here to share in the experience, I do often invite friends over to learn and to partake. We do a large batch, and definitely spread it over two days. On day #1 I make the masa and the various fillings. On day #2 we assemble them and steam them.

Let me share with you another trick that makes my husband cringe, but which works beautifully. After all of my tamales are cooked, I flash-freeze the extras on a sheet pan in the freezer, then throw them into a bag to store. When I need to eat one NOW (usually late at night when nothing else will do!) I wrap the still-frozen tamal in a cloth or paper towel, then put it in a shallow dish in the microwave with about a half cup of water. Cover and nuke at half power. The towel keeps the tamal from going soggy and the water keeps it moist. The result is almost-instant gratification! This technique also works well with Puerto Rican pasteles (which my husband calls tamales puertorriqueños). It's nontraditional, to be sure, but it beats waiting.

Good luck with your tamales! Reading this thread gave me ganas to go make a batch. Maybe this weekend...

¡Buen provecho!

Barb

[Greg]

I am going to make tamales for Christmas. Which kind of tamal is most traditional at Christmas in México?

[Jmahl]

It depends where you are from. In the north in Coahuila its pork, chicken, turkey, cheese, venison or whatever else you have.

Me dar hambre.

Jmahl

[Greg]

I am serving tamalitos on Monday, but I am using fresh masa on Sunday. Which is the best scenario?

• Keep the fresh masa for a day, and assemble and steam the tamales on Monday?

• Make the tamales on Sunday, and steam them on Monday?

• Make the tamales on Sunday and steam them on Sunday, and reheat or re-steam on Monday?

Any other ideas?

¡Felices fiestas a todos!

[theabroma]

For tamales:

You want white field corn - cacahuazintle, or maiz para posole - pick it over, rinse it, and put it in a NON reactive, deep pot. Cover with 3-4" cold water and bring to a simmer. For each pound of corn, measure a rounded tablespoon of cal - calcium hydroxide, or pickling lime - into another small, non-reactive container. Add a cup or so of cold water - and keep it well away from your eyes. Stir with a non-reactive spoon until dissolved.

When the water in the corn has come to a full boil, pour the cal-water through a fine strainer into the pot. Stir thoroughly with a non-reactive spoon. The corn will turn chrome yellow. Drop the heat and heavy simmer for 15 minutes. Check t he corn kernels: you should be able to rub the holleja - or outer coat on the kernel - off between your thumb and fingers. If it does not come off easily, cook 5 minutes more. Check again. As soon as the holleja comes off easily, cut the heat, cover the pot, and let sit for 1 hour or so. Pour the corn through a colander set in a deep sink. Plug the sink, fill it with cold water and wash the corn, rubbing it - refregando - between your palms. Do this washing and rinsing in at least 3-4 changes of water. When the kernels are all pure white again, and the holleja is removed, remove the colander from the sink, shake it vigorously, and dump the corn out onto sheet pans lined with towels. Let it dry until it is no longer wet.

If you have a proper corn grinder or grain mill, let the corn dry in a warm space overnight. If you do not, when the corn is barely damp, grind it in batches in a very stalwart food processor. When it is a fine, but coarse meal, dump it into a sifter or sieve, and sieve it onto a pan or large towel. Repeat until all of the corn is ground, and then re-grind the coarser pieces left in the sieve and sift again.

What you have made is harina para tamal - tamal flour - but a vast improvement on Maseca. It will make a coarser masa than Maseca para tamales, but it will be spongy. You can also mix in a portion of Maseca para Tamales with your harina. This will not be like the masa used for border tamales - it is like that used in Central Mexico. I think that you will like it.

One caveat, however: you must return the flour to a barely warm oven to dry it completely - and/or freeze it. It will mold and sour unbelievably quickly otherwise.

Regards,

Theabroma

[theabroma]

The Christmas season in Mexico brings with it a marked tradition for sweet tamales: pineapple and raisin, pineapple and coconut, etc. Chicken in green chile sauce, pork in red chile sauce, and black bean tamales with either epazote, avocado leaves, or hoja santa.

Yum

Theabroma