69 replies to this topic

[francois]

Is it expensive? Not the book, but the ingredient cost of the recipes you tried at home. cost/yield?

Specially truffles. I just hate books with a lot of recipes using truffles. They just are too expensive for my purse, and for what they are worth (at least the canned variety we have around here). As a results, these recipies are useless, with probably hardly anyone ever trying them--they are mostly for show!

[MobyP]

Not really. I think it's a way for Ducasse to annotate his recipes to pass them around his various restaurants - and of course for training purposes. I'm just the sort of home cook who takes the occasional pleasure from trying something a little more involved.

Is it expensive? Not the book, but the ingredient cost of the recipes you tried at home. cost/yield?

No - but it all depends on how you approach what you're doing. In the case of the veal jus, I had four pounds of veal shoulder - one of the cheapest cuts of the animal. The other ingredients are veg, water, and a little veal stock (made from bones - even less expensive than shoulder).

(And by the way, once I had siphoned off the jus, I had the makings of a great veal stew for dinner - so it paid for itself twice.)

But placing truffles as an inhibition to this kind of cooking is ridiculous. If I want to do a duck dish, I can buy a supermarket duck for 5 pounds sterling. But for fuck's sake, it's going to taste like a five pound duck.

If I do my research, and find a duck hand raised, organic and free-range, it's going to cost me a lot more. Now for a thousand bucks - which one do you think will taste better?

For me, the point of getting into food is to find the best ingredients possible - not buying the most expensive for the sake of them being the most expensive - but the best for what you can afford.

I can go and buy a chicken reared in Bresse for around 24 pounds. Alternatively, and with some work, I can start to research alternatives, and I discovered (along with many others) a chicken raised in England under the Label Anglais tag, which is less than half the price (around 10 pounds), and equals the Bresse bird in flavour (according to all of the Michelin 3 star restaurants in this country). But the point is not the price - the point is the looking. The discovery. Finding the best you can, and doing the best you can with it.

[FaustianBargain]

Finding the best you can, and doing the best you can with it.

Excellent reply, Moby. Thank you.

[francois]

But placing truffles as an inhibition to this kind of cooking is ridiculous.  If I want to do a duck dish, I can buy a supermarket duck for 5 pounds sterling. But for fuck's sake, it's going to taste like a five pound duck.


For me, the point of getting into food is to find the best ingredients possible - not buying the most expensive for the sake of them being the most expensive - but the best for what you can afford.

I perfectly agree with you about the importance of using the best ingredient possible and I certainly go to great lenght to do so, as well as getting to know the producers.

However, there are too many cookbooks with just too many recipes using ingredients that are either unavailable or just expensive beyond reason (like fresh truffles!). Truffles are not an inhibition to great cooking, but they are to some recipes. Of course, when these ingredients are not central to the dish, it doesn't really matter.

Great cooking does not depends on these outrageously expensive ingredients. Anyone can make a good dish with a ton of fresh truffles and foie gras (but not anyone can take a good piece of meat or vegetable and cook it to perfection).

[Lowblow]

Not really. I think it's a way for Ducasse to annotate his recipes to pass them around his various restaurants - and of course for training purposes. I'm just the sort of home cook who takes the occasional pleasure from trying something a little more involved.

Is it expensive? Not the book, but the ingredient cost of the recipes you tried at home. cost/yield?

No - but it all depends on how you approach what you're doing. In the case of the veal jus, I had four pounds of veal shoulder - one of the cheapest cuts of the animal. The other ingredients are veg, water, and a little veal stock (made from bones - even less expensive than shoulder).

(And by the way, once I had siphoned off the jus, I had the makings of a great veal stew for dinner - so it paid for itself twice.)

But placing truffles as an inhibition to this kind of cooking is ridiculous. If I want to do a duck dish, I can buy a supermarket duck for 5 pounds sterling. But for fuck's sake, it's going to taste like a five pound duck.

If I do my research, and find a duck hand raised, organic and free-range, it's going to cost me a lot more. Now for a thousand bucks - which one do you think will taste better?

For me, the point of getting into food is to find the best ingredients possible - not buying the most expensive for the sake of them being the most expensive - but the best for what you can afford.

I can go and buy a chicken reared in Bresse for around 24 pounds. Alternatively, and with some work, I can start to research alternatives, and I discovered (along with many others) a chicken raised in England under the Label Anglais tag, which is less than half the price (around 10 pounds), and equals the Bresse bird in flavour (according to all of the Michelin 3 star restaurants in this country). But the point is not the price - the point is the looking. The discovery. Finding the best you can, and doing the best you can with it.

Hear Hear, I couldnt agree with you more MobbP, its not all about when you get there, some of its about the journey you had on the way. Finding an ingredient localy that is as good as the best imported French Lux et Volup ingrediant is a moment to cherish in its self.

Edited by Lowblow, 08 March 2005 - 08:48 PM.

[francois]

I received my copy of the Grand Livre yesterday. It is HUGE! In comparaison, my Larousse Gastronomique looks like a poketbook!

At first glance it looks quite nice. Every dish is pictured. As was written previously, the recipes are often sketchy, and there are often no cooking times ('cook until done'), but that does not really matter.

As is often the case, truffles are over-represented (I have this thing against truffles which I find way over-valued and over-priced. I will probably change my mind about them when someone discovers how to cultivate them and when they can be grown locally instead of getting them from halfway around the globe). However, often the truffles are not central to the dishes.

These are not the kind of cooking that can be done on the spur of the moment. They take some planning (unless you have a freezer full of all that different stocks, jellies, etc.). However, overall the recipes do not seem very difficult to do. I was surprised to see that most are for 4 people. I had expected recipes for much larger groups. That is a good thing as it gives me less math to do.

Tomorrow I will be trying a fish dish with parsley sauce and bouillabaise sauce. I made the fish stock tonight. It looks nice. I was surprised by the large amount of oil (1 cup for 1/2 recipe - using 3 quarts of water and 5 pounds of fish). Same for the large amount of saffron (5 grams!).

[Fat Guy]

Four people would be a lot of people to cook for in a restaurant. Although mise en place is done for large numbers, most restaurant dishes at this level are made to order for one person.

I just got my copy of the English version -- now I have the French and English side by side on a shelf that is noticeably bending in the middle. So far, based on spending about 15 minutes with the books, I prefer the French edition. Even with my very limited kitchen-French, I can tell that the French is less awkward -- it would be nice if they'd bring an American or British editor in on these English-language editions, and also a recipe tester to QA the translations. Nonetheless, it's great that the book is out in English, even if it hasn't translated as well as it could have, because it will now be accessible to a much wider audience -- not just to native English speakers, but also to people in places like Japan, Israel, etc., where they're more likely to be able to get through an English book than a French one.

[MobyP]

These are not the kind of cooking that can be done on the spur of the moment.  They take some planning (unless you have a freezer full of all that different stocks, jellies, etc.). 

The thing that has changed the most in my cooking is precisely this. I now have a freezer full of stocks, most reduced to demi or glaces for storage space. Chicken stock I replenish every 2 -3 months or so - usually buying around 10-15 pounds of bones. I used to include chicken feet or a trotter for body, but I found I prefer the simpler, purer version. I end up with around 10 - 12 litres of stock, which I reduce down to approximate 3 or so cups.

Veal stock lasts longer - probably 4 months - as it has more body and so I need less. A

I always strain and reduce any left over braising liquids, as they work very well for sauces.

As someone mentioned up thread, this book is great for inspiration on how to use components, as much as anything else. Having come across a copy of the Spoon book, I far prefer this one.

[francois]

Four people would be a lot of people to cook for in a restaurant. Although mise en place is done for large numbers, most restaurant dishes at this level are made to order for one person.

Interresting. I did not know that. It makes a lot of sense.

Last night, I did the fish with parsley-bouillabaise sauce (p 242). Nice! Smelled great, looked great and tasted great. Even the kids loved it! I used some halibut. This is definetly something I will prepare again.

I must say that I am disapointed by the poor quality of the traduction/adaptation. Considering that most readers will be from outside of France, Ducasse should have made some effort to adapt the ingredients. What for exemple is a 'mountain potato'?

Also I don't know how he learned to convert C into F but many times he is way off. For exemple he instructs to cook the fish in a 176 F (180C) oven, or in the confit tomatoes recipe (p. 826), in a 94F (90C) oven. These temperatures are not at all equivalent. The C temperatures make more sense.

Some sentences are meaningless: 'Contrary to what is usually done, to treat the semi-dried tomato and confit tomato in the same way'.

Considering the price of the book, these errors should not be.

The glossary at the end is totally useless, with hardly any valuable informations (but with a few nice pictures).

[francois]

The ingredient lists somethime include 'lobsters, seconds'.

Does anyone know what that means?

[francois]

Ducasse uses 'veal jelly' in several of his sauces, to give them body I suppose. The jelly is made with calf's feet.

These are not available in my part of the world, apparently the slaughter houses just will not bother with them. (Keller also uses them as optional ingredient in his stock)

What would be the next best thing to use?

[chefzadi]

Ducasse uses 'veal jelly' in several of his sauces, to give them body I suppose.  The jelly is made with calf's feet. 

These are not available in my part of the world, apparently the slaughter houses just will not bother with them.  (Keller also uses them as optional ingredient in his stock)

What would be the next best thing to use?

At home I wouldn't bother. The added "benefit" is not worth the trouble. But then again it's not my business to tell anyone how much trouble to go to.

But the veal jelly he is talking about that's made from calf's feet is basically gelatin. Gelatin is available in many forms.

[MobyP]

pig's trotters are a great substitute for adding gelatin and body. Easier also to get hold of.

Also, veal glace, which has a great amount of body - so long as the taste isn't too overpowering.

Edited by MobyP, 19 March 2005 - 11:09 AM.

[chefzadi]

Some sentences are meaningless: 'Contrary to what is usually done, to treat the semi-dried tomato and confit tomato in the same way'.

Franglish to English. Two possibilities.

"Semi-dried tomato (sundried or oven dried?) and tomato confit are commonly used interchangeably, they should not be."

"Semi-dried tomato and tomato confit are not commonly used interchangeably, they can be."

[francois]

Last night, I made the scallops with brown butter vinaigrette (p. 723). Served them with a small salad of wild aragula. Very good. Easy and quick to do if you have some good chicken stoc around.

Also did some halibut (I like that fish!) with an adaptation of the peppery sauce (p. 105). Again, it was great!

These are two recipes that I will 'adopt'.

[MobyP]

I'm falling behind here. Thanks for keeping us up to date.

[francois]

Sometimes there are little steps that add a lot to a dish.

Whenever I can find nice fresh shrimps with the head on, I use the heads and shells to make a stock for the sauce. Ducasse goes one step further. He puts everything in the blender and then through a chinois (p. 156, 'prawn sauce').

Why did I not think of that before! It is simple, does not take that much more time and makes a very significant difference. Great sauce!

[chefzadi]

Sometimes there are little steps that add a lot to a dish. 

Whenever I can find nice fresh shrimps with the head on, I use the heads and shells to make a stock for the sauce.  Ducasse goes one step further.  He puts everything in the blender and then through a chinois (p. 156, 'prawn sauce'). 

Why did I not think of that before!  It is simple, does not take that much more time and makes a very significant difference.  Great sauce!

It's the way to make bisque.

[francois]

Sometimes there are little steps that add a lot to a dish. 

Whenever I can find nice fresh shrimps with the head on, I use the heads and shells to make a stock for the sauce.  Ducasse goes one step further.  He puts everything in the blender and then through a chinois (p. 156, 'prawn sauce'). 

Why did I not think of that before!  It is simple, does not take that much more time and makes a very significant difference.  Great sauce!

It's the way to make bisque.

As you can see, I am really not a professional chef. I learned to cook reading cookbooks (thank you Julia!). Funny thing is that I made bisque several times but I never thought of using the same idea when making a sauce!

[MobyP]

Do you have a digital camera? Might you be able to take photographs for us?

[francois]

Do you have a digital camera? Might you be able to take photographs for us?

I don't have a camera (digital or not). The dishes that I made look nice but are not nearly as picture perfect as the ones in the book.

Last night, I made the safran rice (p. 510). Nice but no better than other risotto 'patties' I made before (for exemple from Simply Bishop's). He instructs to make them rather thin which makes them a bit difficult to handle. Color is great!

I made the fish and sauce. Result was OK but then it was stupid of me to choose the fish according to the color of the skin instead of the brightness of its eyes!. I use a yellow tail snipper (I went for the red color). The sea bass looked better, I should have used it instead. I did not stuff the fish - don't know what a fish liver looks or tastes like.

Again the ingredient list is hard to make sense of: I don't have a clue what he means by 'seasoning olive oil', I just used some good olive oil instead.

Has anyone else tried things from this book?

[nathanm]

It is clearly a great book in many ways, but the copy editor should be shot. The typos are persistent throughout - "Prime Rip" of beef in one recipe, and tons of others.

Ricotta gnocchi are translated as "Buttermilk gnocchi" and in some places buttermilk is misspelled.

In the beef section it calls for "chicken steak". What cut of beef is that? In the southern US it would be chicken fried steak, but this is clearly not that! Anybody know? Presumably the French version must have the French name.

The rich beef jus is interesting. It is somewhat counter intuitive to take a big beef brisket, throw it on the meat slicer and cut it into thin slices to roast, and turn into jus, but that is just what I did yesterday....

[francois]

The rich beef jus is interesting.  It is somewhat counter intuitive to take a big beef brisket, throw it on the meat slicer and cut it into thin slices to roast, and turn into jus, but that is just what I did yesterday....

Was it good?

[crosparantoux]

You guys are already into the meat dishes! Did anybody do the sauce that reduces 3 bottles of Cote du Rhone?
I’ve been working through the vegetables, most recently the asparagus ones, since they’re really in season now. I’m not a pro chef either, and taught myself from cookbooks and dining out. But I was pleasantly surprised to learn Ducasse’s trick of whipping the cream before incorporating it in sauces. I used to just bring cream to the same temp as the other part of a sauce, then reduce the combination if needed. There’s a better texture on the tongue with the whipped cream version. Is this the same technique as the “broken cream” that was discussed in the ADNY-Delouvier thread?

[nathanm]

I made the rich beef jus yesterday - we ate it tonight. YES it was very good. I also made the rich chicken jus. It is very concentrated - a stiff jelly when cold - so it only takes a little bit to achieve the right effect.

To literally follow his recipe you would need to make a veal stock and and pot au feu stock and then make the beef jus, and then enrich it further with oxtail. If you have them all on hand all the time that would be great but I did not have the time to make them one after another so I did this pretty much in combination. It worked out very well.

I have also recently made the pumpkin soup with ricotta gnocchi, and a verison of the broccoli soup. And also the wild salmon with arugula, artichokes and a saurce made from the salmon head... that was great too...

[MobyP]

A friend in France can get hold of - and so uses - both tendrons of veal but also tail in his jus! I haven't seen either in the UK markets. I started adding oxtail to my veal stock - about 1.5 pounds per 10-12 pounds of veal bones, after seeing a Ducasse recipe for beef jus with aparagus which also used oxtail. Apart from adding a great amount of body, it brings a roundness of flavour without adding any 'beef' notes that has completely transformed the end result.

[francois]

I’ve been working through the vegetables, most recently the asparagus ones, since they’re really in season now.

Talking about asparagus; p. 182 '...Cook very quickly in salt water until they are ice cold'.

[jackal10]

My copy arrived today. Its big and heavy.
I agree about the copy editing - and the translation is inconsistent "parmesan ribbons" in one place and "parmesan lace" in anothers as translation of pamensan dentille. Also some of the photos don't seem to correspond exactly to the recipe, and have more or less components than are described in the text.

The devil is in the detail. There is much that is novel and exciting here, but its in the fine detail of the dishes or garnishes, or in details of the preparation and completely missed by the index, and not pointed out by any remarks. It really needs a companion volume of commentary. Ignoring the sea of truffles, there is much wisdom and techniques that can be applied more generally, but how to find them?

Edited by jackal10, 31 March 2005 - 10:11 AM.

[pedro]

. . . . .
There is much that is novel and exciting here . . .
. . . . .

Jack, are you referring to the English edition or to the book itself? I mean, there's so much novel in the English edition vs the French one or in the Grand Livre?

[jackal10]

I have the UK edition. I guess the novel and exciting stuff is common to all editions, but the poor translation and editing is the English edition.