548 replies to this topic

[MikeHartnett]

I don't know if it's because I'm too idealistic, but the idea of jarred roux just bothers me. I don't make gumbo often, but when I do, it's important to stand and stare at the Le Creuset for a while, as I draw the wooden spoon around and think about nothing.

[PopsicleToze]

Mike, it might be worth considering keeping a jar on hand just for back-up because there might come a day when something happens (God forbid -- but the kids might fall and need first aid or something like that) and you burn the roux in the final few minutes -- it could happen. Then, instead of contemplating another hour with the roux stirrer, you could use your emergency jar of roux and continue on with dinner.

I've lived in La all of my life and if you look way back deep in the pantry of most cooks around here, there is that emergency jar of roux.

[MikeHartnett]

Appropriately, I have a question regarding roux.

I just made the fried chicken and andouille gumbo from Donald Link's Real Cajun. This recipe begins by frying the chicken in oil, then using that oil for the roux. Now, as evidenced above, I've made roux before. I even like making roux. I did not like making this roux. It progressed normally until about mid to dark peanut butter, at which point it just stopped. It refused to get darker, no matter how I turned the heat up, or yelled at it, or... It took 2 HOURS. It turned out normally, so everything was eventually fine, and I did not have a roux-induced meltdown. But how is it possible that I can crank up the heat as much as I want and nothing happens? It was as if the roux was shielded from the heat. Has anyone had something like this happen before?

[Chris Amirault]

Interesting. It never happened to me, and I'm fascinated to wonder why it happens. What exactly is the compound that browns in a roux?

[PopsicleToze]

This recipe begins by frying the chicken in oil, then using that oil for the roux. 
It was as if the roux was shielded from the heat.  Has anyone had something like this happen before?

Did you strain the oil first so that there were no little bits left in it after frying the chicken? I'm not sure what happened, but I know that after you add foreign components to the roux of flour and oil (the trinity), that the roux quits browning. Perhaps if there was something left in the oil after frying the chicken, then that stopped the flour from browning.

Not sure though -- just a thought.
2 hours of stirring a roux How many beers did that take?

Rhonda

[Chris Amirault]

I know that after you add foreign components to the roux of flour and oil (the trinity), that the roux quits browning. 

That's because the trinity lowers the heat and releases moisture, I think, not because there are compounds in the vegetables that prevent browning. I've gotten called away from the pot at this stage and returned to black roux and burned vegetables.....

[HungryC]

I, too, am mystified by this. I've never had a roux "stop" browning, or refuse to brown, especially if using high heat. I don't think it has anything to do with using chicken drippings or frying the chicken first....browning skin-on chix in oil (or browning sliced smoked sausage or tasso or andouille in oil) prior to making the roux is SOP for many cooks, and I can't say I've ever encountered anyone who talked about a browning problem.

[MikeHartnett]

It was very bizarre. And I don't think it was the chicken bits either, because that doesn't really explain why it would hit a certain point and stop.

[Chris Amirault]

What kind of flour was it?

[MikeHartnett]

King Arthur All-Purpose Unbleached.

[Chris Amirault]

Huh. I guess my hunch that it was actually light brown metal filings isn't going to pan out.

[MikeHartnett]

Even metal filings, to my knowledge, would not stall mid-roux.

[fooey]

 
I've lived in La all of my life and if you look way back deep in the pantry of most cooks around here, there is that emergency jar of roux.

True that. I lived in Acadiana for 17 years and it's a staple. It's seldom hiding in the back of the pantry, but sitting happily near the stove, like a self-confident garden gnome beckoning you to make chicken fricassé.

I make my own now with half butter, half olive oil and don't make it as dark as it comes in the jars, but I can't say it's any better than the jar roux.

I still remember Mr. Frank and watching him make "chocolate" on the stove when I was un petit garcon. He asked me if I wanted to taste. You bet I did! The result: a mouthful of roux!

[fooey]

It was very bizarre.  And I don't think it was the chicken bits either, because that doesn't really explain why it would hit a certain point and stop.

You're going to smite me for this, but I'm guessing the heat was off or somehow maxed out.

If there's heat, it will go all the way to carbon before stopping.

Me thinks you have discovered some new type of chemical.

Even rubber was an accidental discovery.

[MikeHartnett]

There was heat. I can assure you.

[fooey]

There was heat.  I can assure you.

This sounds like a challenge for Harold McGee at http://www.curiouscook.com.

[philadining]

Not sure that this solves any mysteries, but I did a recent gumbo-making experiment and tested a couple of issues that came up here.

I started my roux with chicken fat (although I carefully strained out any little crispy bits) and my roux certainly had no problem browning. Also, just to stoke the controversy again, I added hot stock to hot roux and had no problems with lumping or integration. I added it in 2-oz ladle pours, but that's what I would have done with any temp liquid, at least at first until things loosened-up a bit.

Here was the whole procedure (and yes, after doing this one a hot August evening, I completely understand why folks might keep a jar of pre-made roux standing by, rather than making it each time!)

I browned-off some bone-in chicken thighs, rendering out as much fat as was practical, then tossed them in some simmering stock to finish (and enrich the stock further). After a while, I pulled the thighs out, let them cool, picked the meat, skimmed the stock, but kept it hot.





Chopped some Andouille, and threw that in the hot chicken fat to brown off.


Removed the sausage, strained the fat through a fine sieve, and ended up with some very nice chicken/pork fat to start the roux with.

I augmented it with some peanut oil to bring it up to the right volume.

Chopped the celery, peppers and onions, had them standing by.


Cleaned out my pot (actually deglazed it with stock, added that to my simmering stock, then washed it out thoroughly) then added my fat/oil combo and a little more than a cup of cake flour and started stirring.



Heat was on medium-high on my relatively wimpy gas burners. Didn't take long at all to start seeing some color.



Getting there. (Man, you folks were NOT kidding about not being able to stop stirring. I had to keep stirring with one hand, while hitting the camera shutter with the other!)



Looks (and smells) about right:


Got the trinity in, indeed amidst some steaming and sputtering and sizzling.


Roux went a little darker, just about exactly where I wanted it, which was largely luck...


After maybe 5 - 10 minutes, started adding (hot) stock.


I know the conventional gumbo wisdom says not to use hot stock, but it worked just fine for me...

After maybe an hour of simmering, I added the chicken and sausage, which I'd tossed with cajun spices, and given a quick spin though a hot pan to toast the spices up a bit. Let the gumbo simmer another hour or so.


I have to say that it turned out pretty darn well, and got some good reviews from friends. I wasn't very careful in measuring out my stock, so I think I ended up making it a little looser than I might have in a perfect world, but I'm not sure that was too tragic.

I'll be taking another run at it soon to see if I can get the thickness right for my taste. If I had half a brain, I'd wait until the weather cooled down a bit to do that, but I'm in the mood to experiment with this now. I find it's tolerable with one particular lifeline:



Next time: cold stock, to see if it acts any differently...

Edited by philadining, 24 August 2009 - 09:35 AM.

[saturnbar]

Looks like a great success. Well done and thanks for sharing. ch

[patti]

Great looking gumbo, just the color I like. I hope there was enough for leftovers!

[philadining]

Thanks for the kind words! Indeed there were enough leftovers to pass around to some friends, and to keep me fed for several days...

I'm eager to take another run at it soon, making some adjustments. One thing I was unsure about - after adding the trinity to the 8 bazillion degree roux, where should I be setting my flame at that point? I reflexively turned it down to medium-low-ish, but I had to wonder if I was supposed to keep it cranking for a little while, and just keep stirring like a maniac? I did keep stirring them, over the lower heat, for about 10 minutes before adding stock, but I was kind of guessing about that part.

I felt like my vegetables stayed intact much longer than I anticipated, although finally, by the time I served it, they'd pretty much all dissolved and disappeared. But I wondered if I should have been cooking them a little further before I added stock.

Any thoughts?

And I'm also wondering about different timing and technique for adding the cajun spice blend. I was riffing off the original recipe posted in this thread, but it called for dusting the chicken with the spices, and then adding it to the pot, but I wanted to cook my chicken off early to get some of that fat, and I don't think I wanted those spices in my oil at that early stage. So I tossed them in a pan with some already browned-off andouille, and toasted them up a it until they smelled right, then dumped it in the gumbo. Turned out fine, but I'd be happy to hear alternatives.

Big thanks to everyone who shared their experiences, this thread was a big help. I'm planning on making this for a group of about 25 in a few weeks, so I felt the need to run a few tests first!

[fooey]

One thing I was unsure about - after adding the trinity to the 8 bazillion degree roux, where should I be setting my flame at that point?

I don't know where the idea of adding the trinity to the roux comes from.

Someone told me this was first popularized by the Chef Paul Prudhomme's flash roux in the 1980s.

I certainly don't have his bona fides and respect him greatly for all he's done for Cajun cuisine, but I can tell you for certain that we Cajuns almost never do it this way, adding the trinity to the hot roux, that is.

We make the roux on Day 1, and we do it slooooooow, on moderate heat, intermittently stirring for a couple hours.

When it reaches the desired color (lighter for chicken/sausage, darker for seafood, although there's no hard and fast rule), we remove from the heat, carefully (Cajun napalm, so be careful!) pour into a stoneware bowl, and let it cool to room temp.

The residual heat will darken the roux considerably more as it cools. The oil will separate and come to the top overnight, so you don't even have to cover it.

Day 2 you bring stock to a boil (most actually use water, not stock, but then they have the advantage of old hens on offer at the butcher all the time, which add tremendous flavor to the gumbo, so much more than fryers!), add the roux, add the trinity, add the spices, add the meats, etc. just all at once.

There's no need to layer or add in any particular order (unless you're making seafood gumbo, in which case you add the seafood at the very end).

Let it simmer away happily, adding more roux or stock to get the right consistency (it's not a fricassé, so it shouldn't be much thicker than the consistency of, say, half n' half).

Don't adjust the seasonings today, as you'll likely over do it, especially the salt.

Let the gumbo cool at room temp. and just put it outside or leave it on the counter overnight.

Yup, no need to refrigerate, because you're bringing it to a boil on...

Day 3, bring to a boil, adjust seasonings, serve over a rice (that's made with a little white vinegar and oil/butter).

re:seasoning the chicken: We don't, ever.

We just add it to the pot.

All of the instructions around seasoning the chicken, roasting or sauteeing to render fats, etc. are unnecessary and not really authentic. I do it these days, but it doesn't really add anything to the final product, IMO.

You want all that fatty goodness to be in the pot.

All the fat comes to the top eventually and it's simple to remove.

uber-secret that no one seems to know outside of Cajun country: Adding a small amount of yellow mustard is miraculous to gumbo.

Try it without and then try it with just a small amount of yellow mustard (1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon).

It brings an entirely new dimension to gumbo and really astounds people who try it for the first time.

It's almost like making one of the French mother sauces (like Sauce Robert) and adding that one ingredient that changes the entire profile of the sauce.

Always add to your serving, of course, not the pot.

Here are a few images from one I made in July 2009:

1. Roux (I just left it in the cast iron pot this time, didn't even pour into a bowl)



2. Roux



3. Mise en place



4. Day 2, all done



5. Adding hot, smoked sausages I had shipped to me from Poche's Market in Breaux Bridge, Louisiana (a market I can't recommend highly enough).



6. I remove the fat at the very last moment, so it's a lot (stock fat, sausage fat, chicken fat, roux fat, etc.) I want all that goodness in the pot until the end stage.



7. Et voila, mes ami, le gumbo:



This one I made a year ago is the same, but shows more meat, including a piece of tasso, or lean pork smoked to perfection:

Edited by fooey, 27 August 2009 - 03:43 PM.

[HungryC]

With all due respect to fooey, I can introduce you to many hundreds of home cooks in Acadiana who do indeed add the trinity to the hot roux (and were doing so long before anyone ever heard of Paul Prudhomme), who never make their gumbo in a three-day process, and who always season the chicken & brown it deeply before adding it to a chicken gumbo. [And I'd caution you about an unrefrigerated large pot of gumbo left out overnight; it can easily sour, and no amount of boiling will un-spoil it.]

That's what I love about gumbo: it belongs to every cook who decides to make it. It's the ultimate in culinary creolization--every hand that stirs the pot adds something else.

Edited by HungryC, 27 August 2009 - 03:02 PM.

[fooey]

With all due respect to fooey, I can introduce you to many hundreds of home cooks in Acadiana who do indeed add the trinity to the hot roux (and were doing so long before anyone ever heard of Paul Prudhomme), who never make their gumbo in a three-day process, and who always season the chicken & brown it deeply before adding it to a chicken gumbo.  [And I'd caution you about an unrefrigerated large pot of gumbo left out overnight; it can easily sour, and no amount of boiling will un-spoil it.]

That's what I love about gumbo:  it belongs to every cook who decides to make it.  It's the ultimate in culinary creolization--every hand that stirs the pot adds something else.

Hi HungryC, I agree that there are as many ways of making gumbo as there are people that make it. I'm not the authority, I don't think there is one; but, I know of no one–after living in Acadiana on the edge of the Atchafalaya Basin for two decades in the very heart of Cajun country with a family that speaks Acadian french as their first language to this day–no one that adds the trinity to hot roux.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm not even saying it's wrong. I just don't know anyone who does that.

The roux simply isn't ready to use until it has had time to rest. If you think roux smells great when it's done, give it a days rest and then smell it. That's when it smells so great you want to eat it with a spoon.

True, the three day process is an exception. Most do it in two days (roux and gumbo on Day 1, eat on Day 2), but since I make stock these days, I do roux/stock day 1, gumbo day 2, eat day 3.

As for spoiling, disagree. I've never seen a gumbo spoil (sour?!) leaving it out overnight. It's like chili, you can leave it on the stove for days as long as you bring it to a boil each day.

It just gets better and better and better.

Edited by fooey, 27 August 2009 - 04:25 PM.

[patti]

My mom always added the trinity to the blazing hot roux and it helped cool it down. My mother grew up in Texas and she learned to make gumbo from my father's mother (whose first language was Cajun French), so this technique has been around a long time (grandma died at 94 two years ago).

Edited by patti, 27 August 2009 - 05:11 PM.

[fooey]

My mom always added the trinity to the blazing hot roux and it helped cool it down. My mother grew up in Texas and she learned to make gumbo from my father's mother (whose first language was Cajun French), so this technique has been around a long time (grandma died at 94 two years ago).

How dark is the roux just before she did this? Peanut butter, milk chocolate, dark chocolate, French roasted coffee, charcoal?

The only reason I can think someone would want to do this is if they get the roux very close to burnt and want to immediately stop it from cooking. The vegetables would caramelize, is that what the thinking is? It sounds basically like an "enfleurage a l'huile" (a hot oil extraction) of flavor from the aromatics into the roux's oil. That oil is not supposed to be part of the liaison. It's burnt oil.

The way I've always made it (and the way my mother and grandmother, etc. make it) is to get the roux just slightly past the color of peanut butter and then remove it from the heat. As it slowly cools (we never force temperature reduction, but let it cool slowly to room temperature), the color very slowly becomes a burnished red-dark chocolate covered by a layer of oil, which is not put into the gumbo.

Edited by fooey, 27 August 2009 - 06:47 PM.

[fooey]

And what's bothering me most about this technique, of adding the vegetables before the roux is allowed to cool and separate from its oil, is that it's causing people to make an emulsification.

The roux's oil is becoming part of the gumbo, almost like a classic French emulsification (mayo, etc.).

This is very much not what gumbo is supposed to be like.

It should be a very clean flavor, rich yes, but not a tongue-coating fatness.

I apologize in advance for using some of the pictures in this thread (as a lot these are getting really close to the real deal and were probably quite delicious), but these pictures show that the roux's oil has been emulsified into the gumbo itself, it's become part of the liaison, which is wrong.

The liaison for gumbo is roux after it has separated from the oil used to make it.

Gumbo is clean, thick yes, but clean.

Note how all of these look greasy (and recognize that this greasy emulsification consistency is because the vegetables were added before the roux and the oil used to make it have separated):





(even says that no fat separation occurred)

















Again: The liaison is the roux only, after it has separated from the oil used to make it.

[philadining]

Fooey, your gumbo looks awesome, and I think I need to try making one your way too and see how they compare...

I'm a rank newbie at making gumbo, but I've done a lot of reading beyond this thread, and it seems clear that there are many paths to the destination, and I doubt any one is inherently correct. I certainly look forward to trying many techniques.

But I don't think I buy the idea that cooking the trinity in the roux is going to suck all its flavor into the oil, which would then get lost in the skimming...

Edit: FWIW, I had a TON of oil break out that needed to be removed, I just waited until the very end to do so, kind of like you did.

Edited by philadining, 27 August 2009 - 06:59 PM.

[philadining]

I think this one of yours looks especially delicious, precisely because it looks greasy!

Are you really suggesting that your roux doesn't have fat emulsified into it? Yeah, I know you pour a bunch of oil off, but I really doubt you're left with just browned flour.

[fooey]

Fooey, your gumbo looks awesome, and I think I need to try making one your way too and see how they compare...

I'm a rank newbie at making gumbo, but I've done a lot of reading beyond this thread, and it seems clear that there are many paths to the destination, and I doubt any one is inherently correct.  I certainly look forward to trying many techniques.

But I don't think I buy the idea that cooking the trinity in the roux is going to suck all its flavor into the oil, which would then get lost in the skimming...

Thanks, philadining.

I agree. I just deleted that part of my response (re: the roux is going to suck all its flavor into the oil) because that was just me talking out loud, trying to understand why people would do it this way.

I replaced it with the other response about how the roux should always be allowed to separate from the oil used to make it.

In Louisiana, for example, a lot of people buy pre-made jars of roux. The brand I link to is one that my Mom always has on standby.

Note how the oil has separated from the roux. You open the jar, remove a big spoonful, let all of the oil drip back into the jar, and then add the roux to your stock.

Works like a charm and a lot of these pre-made rouxs are quite good.

Edited by fooey, 27 August 2009 - 07:20 PM.

[fooey]

I think this one of yours looks especially delicious, precisely because it looks greasy! Are you really suggesting that your roux doesn't have fat emulsified into it? Yeah, I know you  pour a bunch of oil off, but I really doubt you're left with just browned flour.

Yup, that's exactly what I'm saying.

I used a duck for this one, so there was just a tremendous amount of fat. I also like duck fat, so didn't skim it all.

The important thing, however, is to note is that the fat is floating on top of the gumbo, it's not emulsified into the gumbo.

I could have easily skimmed this fat, where as the examples above are "unskimable", for lack of a better word. The fat is those are an inextricable part of the gumbo, literally emulsified into it.

Does that make sense?

Gumbo should not have a thick fatty mouth-feel, it should be like roux-thickened chicken soup.

Edited by fooey, 27 August 2009 - 07:24 PM.