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"The Bread Baker's Apprentice" by Reinhart

Bread

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#31 glossyp

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 09:33 PM

I made the pain a l'ancienne and while the results weren't brilliant they weren't horrible. I mixed the dough and placed in the frig around 6pm on Saturday evening. I took it out at 6am but it didn't warm up and double in size until around 2pm Sunday afternoon. The dough was very soft and wet as it was supposed to be but I was able to successfully shape and get it into the oven without problem. (I halved the recipe, weighing all ingredients and it made two good sized baquettes.)

My oven is a challenge as the heat is unpredictable (rental house with very old electric oven) and I used the improvised steam method. The problem was I put the steam pan on the top rack (can't use the oven floor as the heating element is there) and the bread on the bottom of a sheet pan with parchment on the lower rack. Preheating to 550F, steaming and then backing off to 475F. At 9 minutes it showed good oven spring and was browning nicely. By 15 minutes the bottoms were starting to burn. I checked the internal temp and it was just hitting 205F so I took them out to avoid serious burning on the bottom.

The good news is there were a lot of nice holes in the bread and the flavor was nice. The downside was that the crust wasn't a deep golden brown and it didn't have a nice "crunch" to it. Next time I will reverse the placement of the steam pan and the bread.

The best news is that the bread made really tasty Italian-style roast beef sandwiches for lunch today.

Thanks again, Marcia, for getting me baking again!
"Eat it up, wear it out, make it do or do without." TMJ Jr. R.I.P.

#32 lovebenton0

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 02:12 AM

Reading through the thread there seems to be a Pain a L'Ancienne kick right now and I baked the same today, started yesterday. I made three as stick baguettes, and three as the ciabatta. I like your idea of dividing into four instead of six, Elie, I'll do that next time for larger baguettes.

After overnight in the fridge the dough came awake and alive easily this morning after three hours in a still chilly kitchen.

Posted Image

Baguettes

Posted Image

Had a hard time getting a pic of the crumb that showed anything but white flash.

Posted Image

Ciabatta. The oven jumped in temp after turning these :angry: and they are darker than I wanted, but still taste good and the texture was not harmed. :hmmm:

Posted Image

Yes, there's only two of us here also. Elie, our bread consumption must be close to yours. :laugh: I bake most of our bread and we probably do consume more than most.

Baguettes made a nice meal tonight. :rolleyes:

Posted Image
Judith Love

North of the 30th parallel

One woman very courteously approached me in a grocery store, saying, "Excuse me, but I must ask why you've brought your dog into the store." I told her that Grace is a service dog.... "Excuse me, but you told me that your dog is allowed in the store because she's a service dog. Is she Army or Navy?" Terry Thistlewaite

#33 Marcia

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 02:19 AM

I made the pain a l'ancienne and while the results weren't brilliant they weren't horrible. I mixed the dough and placed in the frig around 6pm on Saturday evening. I took it out at 6am but it didn't warm up and double in size until around 2pm Sunday afternoon. The dough was very soft and wet as it was supposed to be but I was able to successfully shape and get it into the oven without problem. (I halved the recipe, weighing all ingredients and it made two good sized baquettes.)

My oven is a challenge as the heat is unpredictable (rental house with very old electric oven) and I used the improvised steam method. The problem was I put the steam pan on the top rack (can't use the oven floor as the heating element is there) and the bread on the bottom of a sheet pan with parchment on the lower rack. Preheating to 550F, steaming and then backing off to 475F. At 9 minutes it showed good oven spring and was browning nicely. By 15 minutes the bottoms were starting to burn. I checked the internal temp and it was just hitting 205F so I took them out to avoid serious burning on the bottom.

The good news is there were a lot of nice holes in the bread and the flavor was nice. The downside was that the crust wasn't a deep golden brown and it didn't have a nice "crunch" to it. Next time I will reverse the placement of the steam pan and the bread.

The best news is that the bread made really tasty Italian-style roast beef sandwiches for lunch today.

Thanks again, Marcia, for getting me baking again!

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Glossyp, it's great! I'm pleased your pain a l'ancienne was nice and tasty :smile: ! Well done. I loved the taste of this bread and also loved its delicious aroma! That's the most important, isn't it? I have the same problem with the oven and the crust of my loaves weren't very crunchy either. Have you got a pizza stone? Mine is a cheap and thin one but I think it helps a bit. jgarner53 also recommended a humid and warm proofing with a big food-grade plastic bag. PR says the same trick can be done in a microwave oven: bring a cup of water nearly to a boil, then place the dough inside and close the door. My dough also took a long time to wake up after coming out of the fridge, so I did the microwave trick and it took another hour or so to rise, but it didn't doubled the size.

---

I think my next try will be the French Bread. I know it's hard to reproduce it at home (and with a dumb oven) but I'll give it a go to see what kind of french bread am I able to make. :wink:

Marcia

#34 Marcia

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 02:28 AM

lovebenton0, WOW thanks for sharing the pictures! Your loaves are great, and the texture looks fantastic, exactly what I wanted to achieve! And your sandwich was simply mouth-watering with aspargus and olives!! :smile:

Marcia

#35 lovebenton0

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 02:59 AM

lovebenton0, WOW thanks for sharing the pictures! Your loaves are great, and the texture looks fantastic, exactly what I wanted to achieve! And your sandwich was simply mouth-watering with aspargus and olives!!  :smile:

Marcia

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Thanks, Marcia. :biggrin: So glad you started this thread. I had thought about it myself after getting the BBA, but was just a slug -- glad you did it. :cool:

Definitely need to have the steam pan below the bread, glossyp. And a good sub for a bread/pizza stone is to hit your local HomeDepot or flooring center and pick up four or six large, thick, plain clay tiles, place together in your oven on the bottom shelf. There should be a couple inches of space around the square of tiles. Leave it in your oven, it really will help with heat distibution all the time and great for baking bread and pizza. Heat the stone for about an hour before baking for best results.

The foccacia is another good rustic bread from BBA also. Very versatile. You can you halve that if you don't want the full 12"x17" pan and bake it in a smaller pan. Or save half back and fridge the dough for two or three days and it makes great pizza also. :wink:
Judith Love

North of the 30th parallel

One woman very courteously approached me in a grocery store, saying, "Excuse me, but I must ask why you've brought your dog into the store." I told her that Grace is a service dog.... "Excuse me, but you told me that your dog is allowed in the store because she's a service dog. Is she Army or Navy?" Terry Thistlewaite

#36 FoodMan

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 08:18 AM

Judith, these look excellent!! What's in the sandwich?

As I type I have a half recipe of Piolane Miche in the fridge retarding. Hopefully I will bake it tonight and report. If you check out the PR Q&A you'll see in one of my Qs that I have problem getting this one. This time I used King Arthur's White Wheat flour instead of the regular wheat. I also let the dough rise for an extended period of time before shaping. I hope this makes a difference. I will report either way.

Elie

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contact: enassar(AT)gmail(DOT)com


#37 merrybaker

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 09:30 AM

I find it's easiest to cut the pain a l'ancienne into strips while it's still cold from the fridge. Then let it warm up right on the parchment.

#38 lovebenton0

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 10:22 AM

Judith, these look excellent!! What's in the sandwich?

As I type I have a half recipe of Piolane Miche in the fridge retarding. Hopefully I will bake it tonight and report. If you check out the PR Q&A you'll see in one of my Qs that I have  problem getting this one. This time I used King Arthur's White Wheat flour instead of the regular wheat. I also let the dough rise for an extended period of time before shaping. I hope this makes a difference. I will report either way.

Elie

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Thanks. In the sandwich -- thin slices of pan grilled ham from a shank we had pecan-smoked earlier, stuck in shredded mozz between layers of ham (which semi-melted from the heat), bread smeared with crushed red pepper aioli, topped with green leaf lettuce. Simple, but it was so good. :rolleyes: Really pleased with the hard crust on this bread. :biggrin:

I just finished reading (again) the Poilane-style miche you are baking today, Elie. Look forward to your report and pics on that one. :cool: It is going on my list to try soon. We love sourdough. I have a mother starter going I've kept running for about 5 years now, but want to try PR's barm. I like the King Arthur flours also. Think when I do that one I'll try the combination of the bread flour and whole wheat first as he suggests. See how that works for me. But your report could change my mind. :wink:

edit to add: I like your sig line, Elie. :cool:

Edited by lovebenton0, 25 January 2005 - 10:56 AM.

Judith Love

North of the 30th parallel

One woman very courteously approached me in a grocery store, saying, "Excuse me, but I must ask why you've brought your dog into the store." I told her that Grace is a service dog.... "Excuse me, but you told me that your dog is allowed in the store because she's a service dog. Is she Army or Navy?" Terry Thistlewaite

#39 glossyp

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 11:08 AM

Thanks lovebenton0 for the suggestion about the clay tiles. For some unknown reason I thought they were supposed to be placed on the floor of the oven and since that isn't possible due to the heating element, I never tried. I'll put them on the bottom rack and just leave them there.

marcia, here's a question regarding the plastic bag and hot water proofing. I tried that with this batch and when I went to replenish the hot water, the dough was covered with condensation (a lot) and I was worried about introducing too much liquid to the bread so I removed it and placed it in the unheated oven. Is it normal or okay to allow condensation to fall on the bread with this method or should it be avoided?

Great thread! I'm loving all of the pictures.
"Eat it up, wear it out, make it do or do without." TMJ Jr. R.I.P.

#40 lovebenton0

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 11:33 AM

Thanks lovebenton0 for the suggestion about the clay tiles. For some unknown reason I thought they were supposed to be placed on the floor of the oven and since that isn't possible due to the heating element, I never tried. I'll put them on the bottom rack and just leave them there.


The reason you thought that is because if you are lining your oven that is what is recommended. However, for a baking stone, and for those of us that cannot do that, the alternative is the bottom rack, and it works great. Try it, I think you'll be pleased. :biggrin:

marcia, here's a question regarding the plastic bag and hot water proofing. I tried that with this batch and when I went to replenish the hot water, the dough was covered with condensation (a lot) and I was worried about introducing too much liquid to the bread so I removed it and placed it in the unheated oven. Is it normal or okay to allow condensation to fall on the bread with this method or should it be avoided?

Great thread! I'm loving all of the pictures.

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Judith Love

North of the 30th parallel

One woman very courteously approached me in a grocery store, saying, "Excuse me, but I must ask why you've brought your dog into the store." I told her that Grace is a service dog.... "Excuse me, but you told me that your dog is allowed in the store because she's a service dog. Is she Army or Navy?" Terry Thistlewaite

#41 Marcia

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 01:36 PM

marcia, here's a question regarding the plastic bag and hot water proofing. I tried that with this batch and when I went to replenish the hot water, the dough was covered with condensation (a lot) and I was worried about introducing too much liquid to the bread so I removed it and placed it in the unheated oven. Is it normal or okay to allow condensation to fall on the bread with this method or should it be avoided?

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glossyp it was jgarner53 who suggested the bag proofing, I haven't tried that myself yet :smile: . I only tried inside the microwave oven, like PR suggests in his book. I warmed up a glass of water until just before it boils. Then I turned it off, placed the dough inside and closed the door. There was barely any condensation inside. I think you're right for being worried about the amount of condensation on your dough, but I really don't know for sure if that's a problem or not. I hope someone else can help you better than me. :wink:

#42 FoodMan

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 01:39 PM

When I lived in an apartment with an electric oven, I put my quary tile on the lowest rack as well. Now, with a gas oven I have it on the floor of the oven.

Elie

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Houston, TX

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contact: enassar(AT)gmail(DOT)com


#43 glossyp

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 02:21 PM

marcia, here's a question regarding the plastic bag and hot water proofing. I tried that with this batch and when I went to replenish the hot water, the dough was covered with condensation (a lot) and I was worried about introducing too much liquid to the bread so I removed it and placed it in the unheated oven. Is it normal or okay to allow condensation to fall on the bread with this method or should it be avoided?

View Post


glossyp it was jgarner53 who suggested the bag proofing, I haven't tried that myself yet :smile: . I only tried inside the microwave oven, like PR suggests in his book. I warmed up a glass of water until just before it boils. Then I turned it off, placed the dough inside and closed the door. There was barely any condensation inside. I think you're right for being worried about the amount of condensation on your dough, but I really don't know for sure if that's a problem or not. I hope someone else can help you better than me. :wink:

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Thanks for pointing out the correct poster on that method - I can get confused running through all of the posts. I'll redirect the question to jgarner53.
"Eat it up, wear it out, make it do or do without." TMJ Jr. R.I.P.

#44 glossyp

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 02:24 PM

For the warm, humid proofing, I put the loaf(ves) on a sheet pan with semolina or parchment and place that in a clean kitchen garbage bag with a cup of steaming hot (preferably boiling) water. I close up the bag and then inflate it like a giant balloon, and place it in a warm spot. I check on it periodically, depending on the length of the rise, to replace the water, reinflate the bag, check the loaves.

This was suggested by the chef instructor at a CA Culinary Academy weekend bread class I took last year as a way to get around not having a commercial proofing oven. It seems to work well for me.

As to the spraying, I spritz when the loaf goes in, and then twice more (at least 5 or so good sprays each time), at about 1-2 minute intervals.

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Aloha jgarner53, I have a question regarding the plastic bag and hot water proofing. I tried that with a batch and when I went to replenish the hot water, the dough was covered with condensation (a lot) and I was worried about introducing too much liquid to the bread so I removed it and placed it in the unheated oven. Is it normal or okay to allow condensation to fall on the bread with this method or should it be avoided? Thanks for your time and thanks to marcia for steering me to the correct poster!
"Eat it up, wear it out, make it do or do without." TMJ Jr. R.I.P.

#45 Sthitch

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 02:32 PM

Great pictures, I had similar results using this recipe. I have found that I get the best results by using two baking stones, one that the bread sits on and the other on the top shelf. It really helps to replicate a hearth. This weekend I made the Middle Class Brioche for Cinimon Buns, and the dough was incredible. I also made the Vienna Bread, it was light and airy, like nothing I have ever had.

#46 jgarner53

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 03:54 PM

glossyp,

I don't really worry about the condensation at all. Most if it (in my experience) stays on the bag. I'm using a small jelly jar (about 12 oz capacity), about 2/3 full. And any condensation I've noticed hasn't affected the bread results at all.

This weekend, though, I'll try the microwave trick (yet another good use for the microwave!). For those who use this trick, do you have to periodically take the bread out and reheat the water?

Your bread is gorgeous though. I don't know what you're worrying about. :biggrin:
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#47 glossyp

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 07:51 PM

glossyp,

I don't really worry about the condensation at all. Most if it (in my experience) stays on the bag. I'm using a small jelly jar (about 12 oz capacity), about 2/3 full. And any condensation I've noticed hasn't affected the bread results at all.

This weekend, though, I'll try the microwave trick (yet another good use for the microwave!). For those who use this trick, do you  have to periodically take the bread out and reheat the water?

Your bread is gorgeous though. I don't know what you're worrying about.  :biggrin:

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Thanks for your answer. I was using almost twice that much water which would account for the excess liquid. And, I cannot take credit for the lovely loaves pictured above as they were crafted by lovebenton0. Maybe soon I'll be brave enough to post photos of my bread too :smile:
"Eat it up, wear it out, make it do or do without." TMJ Jr. R.I.P.

#48 Marcia

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 04:55 AM

Judith, these look excellent!! What's in the sandwich?

As I type I have a half recipe of Piolane Miche in the fridge retarding. Hopefully I will bake it tonight and report. If you check out the PR Q&A you'll see in one of my Qs that I have  problem getting this one. This time I used King Arthur's White Wheat flour instead of the regular wheat. I also let the dough rise for an extended period of time before shaping. I hope this makes a difference. I will report either way.

Elie

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Elie, i'm looking forward to see your Poilane-style miche! Hope it's nice!! :smile:

#49 Marcia

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 05:00 AM

Great pictures, I had similar results using this recipe.  I have found that I get the best results by using two baking stones, one that the bread sits on and the other on the top shelf.  It really helps to replicate a hearth.  This weekend I made the Middle Class Brioche for Cinimon Buns, and the dough was incredible.  I also made the Vienna Bread, it was light and airy, like nothing I have ever had.

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Hi Sthitch! Good tip about using two stones! I might buy a better thick one and use my pizza stone on the top shelf. And ohhhh Cinnamon Buns! They are delicious!! :smile: I want to try to make it one day but then we'll need to go for a long workout afterwards to burn all the calories :biggrin: !

Marcia

Edited by Marcia, 26 January 2005 - 05:02 AM.


#50 DiH

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 05:08 AM

This weekend, though, I'll try the microwave trick (yet another good use for the microwave!). For those who use this trick, do you  have to periodically take the bread out and reheat the water?


I tried it a couple weeks ago... it worked great! Yes, I re-boiled the water (stovetop) after one hour. Tons of condensation inside the microwave tho' so I'm awfully glad I'd thought to cover the dough.


Di

Edited by DiH, 26 January 2005 - 05:09 AM.


#51 Marcia

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 11:25 AM

Hello everyone!

I've just baked my first French Bread.

I made the pate fermente a day before.
Used the microwave proofing.

Here's the picture of the loaves on their final proof. I haven't got a baguette tray so I cut the top of two boxes: one was baking parchment box and the other one was the freezer bag box. I lined them with plastic wrap and sprinkled some flour :raz:

Posted Image

Then I carefully rolled the loaf to a pan and scored the surface:

Posted Image

Then I baked for 20 minutes, pan with water on the bottom shelf, pizza stone on top shelf, pan with loaves on middle shelf, sprayed 3 times.

Posted Image

The bread is light and taste good BUT I still couldn't get a crunchy crust... :sad: It's actually very soft and sad. I definetelly need to use the pizza stone, might need to buy another one.

I also have the feeling that my oven is not so hot... the maximum it gets is 200-210ºC.

Marcia

Edited by Marcia, 26 January 2005 - 11:27 AM.


#52 glossyp

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 01:22 PM

Marcia,

Your bread is beautiful! So clever of you to improvise your proofing pans; that's recycling at it's best. Don't despair over the crust though I completely understand since I have the same problem. After all, the most important part is the pleasure the creating and eating brings. :smile:
"Eat it up, wear it out, make it do or do without." TMJ Jr. R.I.P.

#53 FoodMan

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 02:30 PM

Marcia-
these look great and I love the idea of using these boxes as proofing containers, I will do that in the future. The crust looks very good in picture, and I am surprised when you say it is soft.

Elie

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#54 rickster

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 04:16 PM

I baked the Poilane loaf last weekend using about 80% King Arthur white whole wheat flour and 20% bread flour. Unfortunately I did not get a great rise since I think my starter was weak. However, the final result was not bad and only slightly more dense and sour than Poilane loaf I bought once in a speciality store.

For what it's worth, I think I find I get a better crust doing the spraying early in the baking process but not leaving a pan of water in the oven.

I also have to recommend PR's American Pie book for some great pizza crust recipes.

#55 plunk

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 10:08 PM

Great pictures, I had similar results using this recipe.  I have found that I get the best results by using two baking stones, one that the bread sits on and the other on the top shelf.  It really helps to replicate a hearth.  This weekend I made the Middle Class Brioche for Cinimon Buns, and the dough was incredible.  I also made the Vienna Bread, it was light and airy, like nothing I have ever had.

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Hi Sthitch. I'm going to replace my stone this weekend and came across your post. I had reasonable crust results using a baking stone and pouring hot water into a pan immediately after the loaves went in but one time I poured too much water in, it splashed, and cracked my stone into three pieces.

Have you tried the hot water method? Would you recommend one stone plus hot water generated steam, two stones plus steam or just two stones?

#56 Sthitch

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 07:44 AM

Plunk,
I put my good stone on the very bottom self, and the lesser stone on a higher shelf, with enough room to hold a pan. I have never had a problem with splashing water breaking the stone because the water I put in the pan is boiling and the stone is quite hot, so any small splash has little effect. I should note that it takes forever for the oven to come up to temperature with two stones in it.

#57 FoodMan

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 07:49 AM

I baked the Piolane loaf on Teusday night- late Teusday night. Since the recipe specifies that it should be rested for a few hours after baking I did not try it out till last night. Sorry about the late report. First the pics:

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

The first picture is of the loaf right before going in the oven. As a whole the bread came out much better than before. Using the white wheat flour and a long first rise made a big difference. A tip for future Piolane Miche bakers, the loaf will bake for a long time in the oven, this one for about 45 minutes. So, if you are baking on a stone you might have to move the loaf up to a rack halfway through or the bottom might scorch. So keep checking on it. I simply moved it up to an oven rack and kept on baking.
I knew that this bread will be different from previous trials, as soon as the wonderful baking bread smell, indicating proper proofing, hit me instead of the raw sour wheat smell I've gotten before. It is still far from perfect though as the crumb is denser than I would like. I think by adding a small portion of white bread flour like rickster did I will get better results. Another thing I need to work on is the shaping, it is kind of tricky since the dough is not as flexible as others and I knocked out a lot of air when I did it.
All in all though, I am happy about the result and the sandwich was excellent even with store-bought (as opposed to Judith's home smoked :smile:) honey ham .

Elie

E. Nassar
Houston, TX

My Blog
contact: enassar(AT)gmail(DOT)com


#58 Marcia

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 11:39 AM

WOW Elie, it does really look very professional loaf!!!
Ahhh and I know what you mean about the satisfaction of having that delicious smell of bread all around the house...! I'm pleased your efforts were rewarded!!

Marcia

#59 glossyp

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 10:58 AM

Elie, Your bread is gorgeous. Everyone here is baking such wonderful bread.

I will have time this weekend to bake. I can start tonight...recommendations from anyone on what to try? I'm stopping by the hardware store today to get the unglazed tiles for the oven. I'm thinking of the Piolane (due to Elie's photos!) or the French bread (thanks to Marcia) but am open to other suggestions.
"Eat it up, wear it out, make it do or do without." TMJ Jr. R.I.P.

#60 FoodMan

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 03:06 PM

Elie, Your bread is gorgeous. Everyone here is baking such wonderful bread.

I will have time this weekend to bake. I can start tonight...recommendations from anyone on what to try? I'm stopping by the hardware store today to get the unglazed tiles for the oven. I'm thinking of the Piolane (due to Elie's photos!) or the French bread (thanks to Marcia) but am open to other suggestions.

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Pain De Campagne (sp?) is great, I usually make a couple different shapes.
Or maybe you can try the "Limpa" (Swedish rye bread) and let us know how it comes out. I've been meaning to try it but have not yet.

This brings and interesting question up. He asks for both anise seeds and fennel seeds for the Limpa? Aren't they pretty much the same thing?


Elie

E. Nassar
Houston, TX

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contact: enassar(AT)gmail(DOT)com






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