100 replies to this topic

[mrsadm]

The recipe is "Magrets de Canard aux Poires" (duck breast with pears) and it calls for 8 oz. of veal stock. The recipe is here:
http://www.ibiblio.o...17/magrets.html

What I have in my freezer is a frozen veal demi-glace that I bought at Wegmans. "CulinArte Bonewerks Demi-Glace de Veau". The label on that one says to dilute 4 to 1.

I also have "Aromont Roasted Veal Demiglace" which comes in a jar. No directions on that one for reducing.

Has anyone else used Aromont? I looked at the store for "better than bullion" but they did not have a veal version.

Thanks much!

[Malawry]

I have used the Aromont vegetarian glace. It's okay but nothing outstanding. No experience with the veal version, sorry. I never turned it into a stock since it was so thick and viscous--I just added a smidge to soups and sauces occasionally. (This was back in the days when I was a vegetarian.)

I sampled the CulinArte product at a Sysco trade show recently. I was impressed--it really is pretty close to what I could produce at home. (Some of their products are salted, though, which is a little annoying.) I'd be inclined to use this product instead of the Aromont becuase I know the guys at CulinArte are hewing fairly closely to classical stockmaking techniques. 4 to 1 sounds about right for dilution of the CulinArte.

[iriee]

it says 4-1 so why not go with that?

[HKDave]

Demi-glace and jus lie seem to be used interchangably these days.....

Demi is a 50/50 mix of brown sauce (sauce Espagnole) and stock, reduced 2:1.

Jus lie is straight brown stock, reduced down to about the same consistancy.

If what you've got is reduced stock, no problem to water it down to stock. But if you've got classic demi-glace, remember the Espagnole is roux-thickened and it may not water down with the same result. Look at the label - if it's got flour, it's not simply concentrated stock, it's also roux-thickened. It sounds like the frozen version you have would be fine. Best (as always) is to make your own.... Fat Guy's eGCI class is a good one.

That recipe is good, I do a similar presentation using spiced cherries. Just make sure you crisscross and cook the heck out of the fatty side so it crisps up nicely. You may want to finish the second side in the oven so you can do the sauce in the pan while the duck stays warm.

[fiftydollars]

...true restaurant-caliber demi-glace...

I regularly make a veal stock using directions from your EGCI course. Would getting something like a true demi-glace be just a matter of reducing it a lot more than a 3x reduction (20x)? Or would this entail a product with sauce espagnole and roux?

Thanks.

Edited by fiftydollars, 13 December 2004 - 04:08 AM.

[deltadoc]

...true restaurant-caliber demi-glace...

I regularly make a veal stock using directions from your EGCI course. Would getting something like a true demi-glace be just a matter of reducing it a lot more than a 3x reduction (20x)? Or would this entail a product with sauce espagnole and roux?

Thanks.

A demi-glace according to Escoffier, would entail making the stock, taking some of that and making a roux thickened Espagnole Sauce, combining equal amounts of the stock and Espagnole sauce, and reducing down 50%.

A stock that is reduced 90% would be a glace de viande, and is much much thicker than a classic demi-glace. (Note: Demi- means "half", so a demi-glace is a half-glace, whereas a glace de viande is a "whole" glalce).

doc

[Fat Guy]

We'd really need to bring in an authority at the level of a James Peterson to get to the bottom of this, but what I've been observing and deducing is that the classical Escoffier demi-glace method is no longer in wide use in contemporary haute-cuisine restaurants (almost all of which have been heavily influenced by nouvelle cuisine), at least not in the English-speaking world and I think probably not in France either. These days one is much more likely to see a demi-glace made by straight reduction, and indeed one is unlikely to see roux used in anything at the top level of kitchens. To my palate -- and I think this is predictable if you consider roux as both a shortcut and an emblem of an era when people wanted sauces that could hold a spoon upright -- a demi-glace made by straight reduction simply tastes better and is better than a roux-thickened one. Of course when you make a demi-glace by straight reduction you have to reduce it more than one thickened with roux to get anywhere near the same consistency (which you'll never really get, and that's okay). As for the 4:1 recommendation, I have a lot of trouble buying it -- I have to think that's a dilution ratio calculated to produce not only an extremely rich stock but also increased sales volume of the demi-glace product. If these products are reduced and made the way I've seen them done in top New York restaurant kitchens, I'd see it as more like 10:1 for turning technically correct straight-reduction demi-glace into an average-weight stock, and something up near 20:1 for real glace or what a lot of people call demi-glace in restaurants even though the designation is incorrect. I'm sure a real chef-instructor type could shed a lot more light on the situation, though.

[Malawry]

....As for the 4:1 recommendation, I have a lot of trouble buying it -- I have to think that's a dilution ratio calculated to produce not only an extremely rich stock but also increased sales volume of the demi-glace product. If these products are reduced and made the way I've seen them done in top New York restaurant kitchens, I'd see it as more like 10:1 for turning technically correct straight-reduction demi-glace into an average-weight stock, and something up near 20:1 for real glace or what a lot of people call demi-glace in restaurants even though the designation is incorrect....

The products I sampled from the company Mrsadm is talking about are not as reduced as the straight-reduction demi I learned to make in culinary school and have seen in restaurant kitchens. (I thought that was their primary failing when I tasted them, actually!) 4:1 may be off, but I doubt you'd want to dilute the CulinArte products more than 6:1 or so.

Taste is always the key though.

[HKDave]

We'd really need to bring in an authority at the level of a James Peterson to get to the bottom of this, but what I've been observing and deducing is that the classical Escoffier demi-glace method is no longer in wide use in contemporary haute-cuisine restaurants (almost all of which have been heavily influenced by nouvelle cuisine), at least not in the English-speaking world and I think probably not in France either. These days one is much more likely to see a demi-glace made by straight reduction, and indeed one is unlikely to see roux used in anything at the top level of kitchens. ..........  I'm sure a real chef-instructor type could shed a lot more light on the situation, though.

For a 'chef-instructor' perspective, the 2003 edition of Labensky's excellent 'On Cooking' - a textbook used by many culinary schools in the USA, written by a chef-instructor - specifies the Espagnole-thickened recipe for demi. It does say that a straight reduction can usually be substituted, but calls that reduction a jus lie, not a demi. I don't have a copy of the CIA textbook here, but if I recall correctly it says much the same thing (can someone check?).

I agree that demi is on the way out in favour straight reductions, and I welcome that - and use reductions rather than demi myself. But there are already names for reductions (jus lie, or if reduced further, glace de viande), so it seems logical to use those names rather than calling them demi-glace. There are still many old-skool restaurants in the world using roux...

[Fat Guy]

I think a jus lie is still a thickened sauce, just one thickened with a slurry rather than with a roux. If I remember correctly from reading Peterson on sauces, Escoffier's demi-glace was a shortcut replacement for coulis (made through successive re-moistenings rather than through reduction; coulis is preferable, flavor-wise, to a straight reduction, but is a pain to make). I don't know if the term demi-glace was in use at the time and Escoffier coopted it, or if Escoffier actually invented the term. Either way, the thing is, while it is certainly not correct from the perspective of Escoffier's vocabulary, the glace --> demi-glace progression as an expression of degree of reduction is one that appeals to common sense and linguistic sense, is easy for cooks to understand and reflects the primary base components for much of contemporary saucemaking, which generally rejects liaisons and thickeners.

Just looking around for some real-world usage, I came back to the CulinArte site. They actually have two products that are relevant to the definition, both called Demi-Glace de Veau. One, however, is labeled "Classique" and the other "Elite." The descriptions given are:

Demi-Glace de Veau (Classique)

An "escoffier" method of half reductions and blends with espagnole and further reduced with a liason of starch for thickening combined with red wine, herbs and spices for an economical as well as classical blend. Ideal for banquets, catering conveniently packaged in 16 lb. buckets, heat and serve.

Demi-Glace de Veau (Elite)

True excellence of Demi-Glace', truly "old world" cuisine. Our "elite" Demi-Glace' relies totally on reductions without any roux or liason for thickening, taking over 24 hours of roasting, simmerings and reductions, truly for the "elite" levels of cuisine. Packaged in 5 lb tubs.

[RETREVR]

Most demi used anymore is not espangol based, but it depends on the application. If I am making a plated tenderloin, I will generaly use a reduction. This is often mounted with butter. If I am making the same dish for 100 people, and the sauce will be in chaffer, I will use something similar to escoffier's demi. If I am making pork or chicken, or even fish, I will use a lightly reduced veal stock with a slurry.
The beauty of having a moderate slurry demi, is that it is neatral enough to use on many dishes, yet if you need to, you can recuce it by half in a pan sauce to bring out the meaty flavor.
Part of what you want out of your stock is the gellatine. My reduced demi could be used to make a flack jacket. Has anybody played around with using gellatine as a thickener for stocks?

[tim]

Has anybody played around with using gellatine as a thickener for stocks?

Adding gelatin to stocks is a trick frequently used in restaurants. It is one way to save time and allows for a gelatinous stock from left over meats. It does not add to quality.

Tim

[UnConundrum]

I baked about 50 loaves of bread yesterday, and I was worried about the temperature in the room, so I put a pot of chicken stock on to cook overnight (worked wonders on the temperature), about 26 quarts. I chilled it overnight, removed the fat, and decided to reduce it to a demi. Problem is that I've never made it before. For my stocks, I put it in 1, 2, and 4 cup quantities, and freeze in vacuum pouches which works great. A cup of demi would seem to be overkill though..... So I was wondering how you store your demi. Does it have a good shelf life in the fridge? If I freeze in 1 cup quantities, will the defrosted cup last a month or two in the fridge? Other suggestions?

[Shalmanese]

I pour it into large ice-cube trays and freeze. Once frozen, I pry them out with a knife and store in ziploc bags. One cube is roughly the equivilant of 1 cup of stock.

[BigboyDan]

Yep: ice-cube trays and freeze; the way we do it in a professional kitchen as well...

[coquus]

I don't really know how long your particular demi will last, the less water the longer it lasts is the answer you probably weren't looking for. I would say a typical demi has a fridge shelf life of three or four weeks maybe slightly longer. For defrosting purposes, I would melt it on the stove and then pour it in a storage container when cool to store in the fridge (to limit the exposed surface).

[Reefpimp]

Demi is best stored in my freezer. Send it to me.

[Ruth]

Why not reduce it further to a glace? This will keep for weeks in the fridge and what you freeze will take up far less space

[UnConundrum]

Well, I guess I'm not up on the proportions.... I'd say I have about 2 -3 quarts at this point.... so that's a 10 - 1 reduction I guess.... Is the glace down to about 20 - 1?

BTW, can you reconstitute and use demi and/or glace anywhere you would use stock? I realize there are uses for these where stock would not work, but what about visa-versa?

Edited by UnConundrum, 25 December 2006 - 07:41 PM.

[mrbigjas]

Well, I guess I'm not up on the proportions....  I'd say I have about 2 -3 quarts at this point.... so that's a 10 - 1 reduction I guess....  Is the glace down to about 20 - 1?

BTW, can you reconstitute and use demi and/or glace anywhere you would use stock?  I realize there are uses for these where stock would not work, but what about visa-versa?

yes. many of us with small houses and no room for chest freezers always reduce stock quite a bit so it will fit in our regular freezers, and reconstitute as needed. i find you just have to be kind of careful, because when you get down to near-glace status, things can take on a more roasted/caramelized/... ok let's say you risk getting an almost burned flavor. so be careful, and reduce slowly once it gets real low.

[HKDave]

I freeze demi in sealed 2-cup containers. I've tried the ice cube thing but, maybe because of the increased surface area, found the demi seemed to pick up other flavours after a while, even though I double-wrapped the cubes.

Once thawed and in the fridge, every couple of weeks I re-heat any unused demi and place it in a clean sealed container. It'll keep in the fridge for a very long time this way.

[Shalmanese]

A 10:1 reduction means 250mL is reduced down to 25mL which is roughly an ounce. That sounds about right. Don't forget that home stock is usually a bit more concentrated than store bought stock in the first place so you have to factor this into the reduction.

You can use demi diluted as stock but the flavours are a bit muted due to the long cooking time neccesary to reduce and it seems like a waste of time and effort to reduce it down only to dilute it back up again. I just used demi for sauces and leave stock as stock. Either make 1 batch of demi for every 2 - 3 batches of stock or decant off 1/3rd your stock to make demi and keep the rest undiluted. Depends on how often you use demi compared to stock.

HKDave: 2 cups of Demi is 20 cups of stock. I have no idea how you can use that much demi so fast or how you find the time to make that much in the first place. 2 cups of demi would last me 3 months.

[deltadoc]

Escoffier stated that a glace was a 90% reduction of stock. I've made it and kept it in the refrigerator, but after some weeks, it developed a mold even though the container had a tight lid.

My demi-glace, made per Escoffier, I freeze in stainless steel 1-cup containers with tight fitting plastic lids. Some of them have been in the freezer for 1 year and they still taste excellent.

I have no trouble at all using 1-cup of demi for a sauce for filet mignons for two people. The extra is usually used on garlic mashed potatoes, so what spills over from the filet gets et with the potatoes!

doc

[tim]

Hi,

I freeze demi-glace in mason jars or cambro containers. About 30 minutes in hot water or 5 minutes in a microwave and you are ready to cook.

Hong Kong Dave hit the nail on the head with his comment about the increased surface area of frozen demi-glas cubes. I also make too much stock and wouldn't have room for bags of cubes.

Tim

[scott123]

Once thawed and in the fridge, every couple of weeks I re-heat any unused demi and place it in a clean sealed container. It'll keep in the fridge for a very long time this way.

Re-heating stock to prolong life has been proven to be a myth. There are quite a few strains of bacteria that survive boiling.

[scott123]

Hong Kong Dave hit the nail on the head with his comment about the increased surface area of frozen demi-glas cubes.

I'm in the same camp. Surface area + freezing = greater propensity for absorption of off flavors. I cringe when people talk about freezing flour.

I've been freezing glace in shallow containers, about an inch thick. Because of the high proportion of dissolved solids (gelatin) my glace doesn't freeze rock hard/is sliceable right out of the freezer. I slice a piece off and put the chunk back. The shallowness of the container gives me some surface area, so my glace does absorb off flavors, but I've noticed these off flavors don't penetrate far. I resolve this by rinsing the glace off in warm water for a split second. This removes the outer fraction of an inch. I do the same thing for stock.

I've found stocks hidden in the freezer for 3+ years where the outer 1/2", after being scraped off and melted, tasted absolutely vile, but the inner core tasted like the day it was made.

The longer a stock/glace has been in the freezer, the more of the outer layer I wash off.

The other thing I do for stock/glace preservation is to make sure I add salt. I used to make all my stocks/glaces salt free and then add salt to the final dish, but their shelf life was cut way too short. So I add salt. Salt is a big player in this equation. If you can work with an extremely salty demi or glace (I can't) freezing may not even be necessary. Heck, refrigeration may not even be necessary.

[scott123]

You can use demi diluted as stock but the flavours are a bit muted due to the long cooking time neccesary to reduce and it seems like a waste of time and effort to reduce it down only to dilute it back up again.

I don't think the flavors are muted at all. Reducing stock creates maillard compounds, giving demi (and the diluted stock) a more roasted/bolder taste. In fact, if I want the taste of a roasted stock, but don't want to roast the meat before hand, I get those maillard notes on the back end by prolonged reduction/dilution. Whether by pre-roasting or post-reduction, I can get the same flavor to my stock.

The prolonged heat does break down the gelatin, though, so a reduced/diluted stock will have less body than an unreduced version. And, for some apps, color and flavor aren't always desired. If you have a recipe calling for white stock, a diluted demi won't fit the bill.

Edited by scott123, 26 December 2006 - 11:05 AM.

[paulraphael]

I think there's confusion between demiglace and glace de viande.

Glace de viande is a 4x to 10x reduction of gelatinous beef bone stock. It's traditionally used to enrich nouvelle cuisine-style interpretations of sauces that are finished with reduced cream and/or butter.

Demiglace is basically 1/2 to 2/3 reduction of a sauce espagnole (one of the original four mother sauces) and is the base for classical brown sauces. Espagnole itself is traditionally made from beef and veal-rich brown stock that is thickened with roux, enriched with pork (and often tomatoes) and reduced slightly.

Modern restaurant kitchens usually make glace de viande (it's cheaper and much less labor intensive in spite of the increased reduction) but for some reason call it demiglace, so everyone gets confused.

At any rate, it's more than just a semantic point, because the two are used differently, and if you indescriminately use one in a recipe calling from the other, you probably won't be happy.

Ao, an ice cube of glace de viande might be similar to a cup of stock, but an ice cube of demi would not.

I agree with the person who said reconstituted glace will taste flat compared with unreduced stock. Even with judicious replenishing of the bouquet garni, you're going to lose many of the aromatic elements of the meat in any extreme reduction. A classically prepared sauce with real demiglace (which few people ever have the opportunity to taste) will have much more depth and savor than a nouvelle sauce made with glace de viande. Although some prefer the more velvetty texture of the nouvelle sauce, which is thickened by cream, butter, and gelatin, with no starch.

For sources, check out Escoffier's Le Guide Culinaire, Larousse Gastronomique, Peterson's Sauces, or Raymond Sokolov's Saucier's Apprentice.

As far as the original question, I put mine in 1 cup quantities (demi, not viande) in ziplock bags and freeze them. I'm curious to try the ice cube trick for smaller quantities, maybe by individually wrapping the cubes in plastic and putting a few at a time in a ziplock.

[Shalmanese]

Nobody *makes* espagnole a la Escoffier anymore so I think it is safe to retire the old definition of demi-glace in favour of the more common, modern usage.

Demi-glace = stock reduced to sauce consistency
Glace = stock reduced to more than sauce consistancy.

[UnConundrum]

Well, I resolved my storage issue. I have some 1 cup ball jars sitting around, so I put the "reduced stock" in there, and used my chamber vac to seal a lid on each, and then froze it. I assume that if I re-establish a vacuum on the jar I'm using, after each use, it will keep in the fridge for a while.

Other than mold and/or an off smell, any other way to tell when it's spoiled?