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Vermouth


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#211 tanstaafl2

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:55 PM

Not surprised you were thinking slowly! :biggrin:


Oh, I was thinking pretty quick!

It just didn't make much sense in retrospect...
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#212 campus five

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:34 PM

The contratto sweet vermouth is wonderful. I'd put it up there with Antica and Cocchi di Torrino. 



#213 brinza

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:04 AM

The contratto sweet vermouth is wonderful. I'd put it up there with Antica and Cocchi di Torrino. 

Wow, that's quite an endorsement.  Those are two of the best (if not the top 2).  Thanks for the insight.


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#214 JoNorvelleWalker

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:29 PM

I am looking to acquire some quality vermouth for mixed drinks.  I once bought a bottle of vermouth for cooking (no idea what it was) but I did not care for it neat.  As I recall the recipe was for a sweetish Sephardic chicken braise. Or that might have been Marsalla, although I used vermouth for some chicken recipe.  But for drinking, from what I've read Carpano Antica sounds most interesting of what vermouth is available to me.

 

Suggestions?

 

I take quinine on presciption and I think it's vile.  For recreational use I would prefer a vermouth that is bitter from botanicals other than quinine.

 

I have a liter of M&R I was given as a wedding present in 1971 though I don't choose to open it just yet.



#215 lesliec

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:38 PM

45 (nearly)-year-old vermouth?  Interesting.  Approach it with caution; I suspect it will be completely gone, but I've been surprised by such things before.

 

What you buy really depends on which drinks you want to make.  My preference for a recipe requiring 'sweet vermouth' is Punt e Mes, although this morning I bought some Carpano just for a change.  And their Bianco as well, because it was there and I could.

 

This stuff, if you can find it, is delicious just on its own with a bit of ice and a slice of orange.


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#216 Plantes Vertes

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 04:00 AM

 

 

I have a liter of M&R I was given as a wedding present in 1971 though I don't choose to open it just yet.

 

You could invent a Schr√∂dinger's Martinez with that. Then you wouldn't have to open the bottle.

 

There's a site about vermouths here (http://vermouth101.com/) that might provide inspiration.


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#217 JoNorvelleWalker

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 03:08 PM

The vermouth101 site is linked earlier in this thread and I had read it, thanks.  And thanks for the mental image...trying hard not to think about infusion of dead cat.

 

My current plan is to try to obtain some Vya dry and the Carpano Antica.  Plus I have a shipment of Foodsaver corks on the way.  Now, if only I had room in the refrigerator.



#218 EvergreenDan

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 04:51 PM

The vermouth101 site is linked earlier in this thread and I had read it, thanks.  And thanks for the mental image...trying hard not to think about infusion of dead cat.

 

Or alive. Can't tell. :)


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#219 Czequershuus

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 08:58 PM

I think Antica is great for aromatic cocktails, and utterly indispensable for Manhattans,  but the vanilla notes can be overwhelming, particularly in sours. I honestly find M&R perfectly servicable for every day use, maybe slightly better than Cinzano. However, Punt e Mes is an utter dream, if only it were availible in my area. 



#220 EvergreenDan

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 05:07 AM

@Czerquerhaus - You can get Carpano Antica but not Carpano Punt e Mes? Special order, maybe? 


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#221 Czequershuus

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 01:50 PM

@Czerquerhaus - You can get Carpano Antica but not Carpano Punt e Mes? Special order, maybe? 

I may have miscommunicated in post - I have ordered Punt from Drinkupny, and what I meant is it taste like a dream. However, placing these orders is really only in my budget once, maybe twice a year, and Sweet Vermouth is one of the bottles I go through most quickly. Antica recently showed up at my local store, so it is very convenient to purchase, especially as it is in the 375 ml bottles now. 



#222 EvergreenDan

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 02:33 PM

@Czerquerhaus - Right. I'm suggesting that if your local store can get Antica, I bet they can get Punt e Mes. Maybe they can special order it for you at no extra cost.


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#223 mkayahara

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 03:01 PM

I think Antica is great for aromatic cocktails, and utterly indispensable for Manhattans,  but the vanilla notes can be overwhelming, particularly in sours.

I'm curious: what vermouth sours are you drinking? The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the Oriental, and I've never really found it to be anything special.


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#224 Tri2Cook

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 03:03 PM

The LCBO site claims we can now get Carpano Antica and Carpana Classico (which I know nothing about) as well as Dolin Dry and Dolin Rouge. I was initially excited but I've yet to see any of them in any stores around where I live so the excitement and hope are both fading.


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#225 ivan

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 05:00 PM

Or alive. Can't tell. :)

Both dead AND alive.

 

I stumbled upon Cocchi Vermouth di Torino by accident. I sought out Cocchi Americano, because I read somewhere that it more closely resembles the original Kina Lillet than does Lillet Blanc. I wanted to taste as much as possible what Ian Fleming had in mind for the Vesper martini. I found a nice little split of Americano at Total Wine, and there next to it was a split of di Torino. I didn't want to break up the set, so I bought both. Absolutely marvelous stuff, both of them.


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#226 Kerry Beal

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 07:31 PM

The LCBO site claims we can now get Carpano Antica and Carpana Classico (which I know nothing about) as well as Dolin Dry and Dolin Rouge. I was initially excited but I've yet to see any of them in any stores around where I live so the excitement and hope are both fading.

Saw the Carpano Antica but not the classico and both the Dolins.  Want some sent along?



#227 Czequershuus

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:21 PM

@Czerquerhaus - Right. I'm suggesting that if your local store can get Antica, I bet they can get Punt e Mes. Maybe they can special order it for you at no extra cost.

Ah, I see. This could be a possibility, I do have a very good relationship with the staff and owner. Thank you for the suggestion. 

 

I'm curious: what vermouth sours are you drinking? The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the Oriental, and I've never really found it to be anything special.

I looked through my recipes, and while it is a small category, there are a few that stand out. The Wig in a Box is the best of the bunch for me. The Supreme is really very nice. The Chet Helms is a very tasty long drink with sweet vermouth. And if you happen to have three kinds of vermouth open, the Pay Per View is worth a shot. 



#228 Czequershuus

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 07:14 PM

Owing to my local liquor stores stopping stocking Noilly Prat Original Dry, I finally opened my bottle of Noilly Prat Extra Dry. I was skeptical at first, because the marketing seems to place the extra dry in a class with M & R Extra Dry, which I do not like at all. This, however, is very close to the Original Dry. Mostly it lacks some of the richness of the Original Dry, but the botanical backbone is still present.

 

I tired it out in my standard Martini. 2:1 with Beefeater and two olives. It performed quite well. This is an acceptable substitute for the Original Dry, I am glad I will not have to special order my standard dry vermouth.



#229 slkinsey

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 06:23 AM

The NP Extra Dry is essentially a reintroduction of the old American version of NP that prevailed over here for many years.


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#230 Kent Wang

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 03:08 AM

Fairly vigorous blind testing on Serious Eats: The Best Way to Store Vermouth



#231 EvergreenDan

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:17 AM

Fairly vigorous blind testing on Serious Eats: The Best Way to Store Vermouth

Interesting. I do wish vacuum sealing was tested. And I'm surprised that sweet vermouth was selected, as I've found it to be less prone to spoilage.

 

My take-away is that probably any of these methods is okay, since the testers struggled to identify the "odd man out" in the triangle.


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#232 bostonapothecary

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 01:54 PM

Interesting. I do wish vacuum sealing was tested. And I'm surprised that sweet vermouth was selected, as I've found it to be less prone to spoilage.

 

My take-away is that probably any of these methods is okay, since the testers struggled to identify the "odd man out" in the triangle.

 

it is harder than you would think to de-gas a liquid with a vacuum. to actually get rid of the oxygen you would end up boiling the liquid and then you would damage the aroma. pressure de-aeration works much better to force out certain gases and is a lot cheaper that vacuum on the home scale. you can more or less do it with a tap-cap or my champagne bottle manifold.


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#233 slkinsey

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 06:23 AM

The idea of a vacuum device for a wine bottle is not to draw out gasses already dissolved in the liquid, but merely to remove as much oxygen as possible from the headspace.  Really, when you think about it, the best design for something like vermouth would not be a bottle but rather a "wine in a box" concept so that no gas is introduced into the bottle from dispensing.


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#234 bostonapothecary

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 09:49 AM

The idea of a vacuum device for a wine bottle is not to draw out gasses already dissolved in the liquid, but merely to remove as much oxygen as possible from the headspace.  Really, when you think about it, the best design for something like vermouth would not be a bottle but rather a "wine in a box" concept so that no gas is introduced into the bottle from dispensing.

 

for a bottle of wine with a glass poured out, if you don't vacuum the head space, the liquid starts to absorb enough oxygen form the head space within maybe six hours to fully oxidize the wine. that is just some trivia I remember from reading The Technology of Winemaking. the problem with focusing on head space, even if you get to it immediately, is that it isn't really very significant.  the amount of oxygen taken up by the liquid just through the act of sloshing and pouring is pretty significant.

 

with a beverage its hard to believe it happens, but with the plastic & rubber parts I make for the Champagne Bottle Manifold its staggering how just stirring and pouring a viscous liquid entraps huge amounts of air. you can pull a serious vacuum then pressurize it and you still get small amounts of bubbles.

 

Goode & Harrop's book, Authentic Wine, has a small section on bag in the box technology, but they comment that the current materials diffuse pretty significant amounts of oxygen and have limited store shelf lives. European bag in the box wine are actually bottled stateside to combat this. Vermouth which doesn't move from shelves as fast an Franzia would probably need some alt bag technology.

 

but remember, Vermouth is pumped full of anti oxidants from all the botanicals in it, so the oxidation worries that people have are probably far over blown.


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#235 Czequershuus

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 12:25 PM

Fairly vigorous blind testing on Serious Eats: The Best Way to Store Vermouth

Interesting that the tester could not detect a difference in the dry vermouth after a month. I Vacu-Vin my vermouth and store in the refrigerator, but after a month I almost always notice off flavors. I may have to blind test this myself. With the sweet though, I totally understand. I had a bottle of Carpano Antica that I forgot about in my cabinet that tasted just fine 8 months with no refrigeration. 



#236 slkinsey

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 12:22 PM

bostonapothecary, I don't disagree that these devices are ineffective. I'm just pointing out what they are designed to do. Anyway, I'm betting that bag-in-a-box vermouth would be just fine for periods up to a year of incremental use.
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#237 Katie Meadow

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 01:37 PM

I'm experimenting with a nice hot-weather drink called the Gentle Persuasion, since I have all the ingredients with the exception of Lillet Rose. I have Lillet (blond), but found the amount added to the drink was just too much, since I'm not even a big Lillet fan. Here's Gary Regan's adaptation of the cocktail:

 

1.5 oz Lillet Rose

1/2 oz Laird's applejack

3/4 oz fresh lemon juice

1/2 oz simple syrup

2 dashes Peychaud's

mint sprig

 

I used the Lillet Blond and cut it back somewhat, but I still want to get away from the Lillet taste. What might be a good substitute or variation? I have the following on hand: Bonal, Amaro CioCiara, Fernet Jelinek (that would be weird, no?) and Cocchi di Torino, along with the usual suspects of Noilly Prat dry and Martini & Rossi Red.


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#238 Kent Wang

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:25 PM

The Sweethome says that vacuum doesn't work that well and that inert gas is the best for keeping wine fresh. The article is about wine, so a bit less applicable to vermouth.

 

Should you also avoid storing vermouth bottles on the refrigerator door? It'll slosh every time you open the fridge.

 

Anyway, I'm starting to get the feel that one shouldn't worry too much about vermouth at all.



#239 JoNorvelleWalker

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:15 PM

I've tried vacuum and I don't think it works that well.  Vermouth is vermouth, and I don't even like it all that much.  Mine stays in the refrigerator door.

 

I think the solution for wine is to drink more wine.



#240 FrogPrincesse

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:19 PM

Based on this article from Wired published last year, I started storing opened bottles of vermouth and wine under inert gas (always in the fridge). For wine the improvement is noticeable right away - I can keep bottles for a week and hardly notice any difference in quality. For vermouth, it's harder to tell because the decline in quality is not as dramatic and much slower too. But it helps.


Edited by FrogPrincesse, 01 August 2014 - 12:23 PM.

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