204 replies to this topic

[slkinsey]

FoodSaver makes a vacuum cork, which strikes me as easier.

But really... I've had bottles of CAF in the refrigerator for long periods of time, and they have never "gone South" -- or, indeed, been anything other than delicious.

[KatieLoeb]

I made a 16 oz. batch today of cinnamon tea infused vermouth (from Phil Ward's Mother's Ruin Punch recipe). I have about 4 oz. left and am going to experiment with it in something or other later on this evening. Will report back...

[Chris Amirault]

Oh, good! I just read about the Soup Swap, and, of course, my thoughts turned to the Mother's Ruin Punch. Which vermouth did you use? Which tea?

[KatieLoeb]

Chris:

I made 16 oz of infused vermouth - 14 oz. of Martini & Rossi and 2 oz. of Carpano just because I could. I'd bought a box of Bigelow Cinnamon Stick tea from the supermarket and infused 4 bags for about 2 hours in the 16 oz. of vermouth. The end result is delicious. I'm sure the aromatics of the wee bit of Carpano only helped, but I'm also certain it would be fine with just the Martini & Rossi, as Phil's directions call for. I'll report back shortly on what I made...

[Chris Amirault]

I bet that stuff would make a killer Martinez or rye Manhattan.

[jmfangio]

I bet that stuff would make a killer Martinez or rye Manhattan.

Potential understatement of the year! I missed the previous discussion about the Mother's Ruin Punch, but the cinnamon tea infused vermouth sounds like an amazing idea. Perhaps a Red Hook variation, using it in place of the Punt e Mes?

[KatieLoeb]

When we last left our heroine...

OK. So I made a Harvard cocktail according to the directions on cocktaildb.com using the following:

1.5 oz. Bourbon (Eagle Rare 10 yr. old)
.75 oz. cinnamon tea infused vermouth
.5 oz. fresh lemon juice
.25 oz. grenadine (I have a really nice batch of homemade which is why I chose this cocktail...)
dash of Angostura bitters (I added 1 drop of Fee Bros. Whiskey Barrel Aged bitters too, just because that's how I like things)

Shake, strain, top with lemon twist.

Drink was quite tannic and a bit tart. Put in about another half oz. bourbon and it was much improved. Of course, now re-reading the Harvard recipe I realize it was supposed to be BRANDY!!! D'oh! Oh well. I have the attention span of a gnat. This is widely known. By the time I'd gone down two flights of stairs to the kitchen, I remembered the proportions just fine, but not the main ingredient. Anyhow, my second pass at this I substituted 1.5 oz. of Rittenhouse bonded for the (mistaken) bourbon and the drink was delicious.

I'm concerned about the vermouth turning tannic and bitter. It had only been out for about 6 hours or so in a closed container (truth be told I was running late to the party with the batch of Mother's Ruin punch this afternoon and bolted out the door) and my kitchen is pretty chilly, so it shouldn't have "cooked". I transferred it to a smaller bottle, added another small splash of Carpano and put it in the refrigerator in the hopes that I'm not sensing it "going south". We'll see if a bit of rest in the bottle and refrigeration does it some good. According to Phil's directions the infused vermouth keeps well refrigerated for about a month. Perhaps in a couple of days I'll try make a Harvard correctly with some brandy and also try my applejack variant with some of the Laird's 7.5 year old. I suspect that latter variation could be a positively epic autumnal cocktail.

Edited by KatieLoeb, 18 October 2009 - 08:55 PM.

[Kent Wang]

Could you just infuse it with regular tea (what kind?) and cinnamon?

[Chris Amirault]

Yeah, a high quality black tea (I'm seeing a lot of Ceylon around the web) with cinnamon sticks....

[KatieLoeb]

Well you know, this batch of punch to bring along to the party was sort of a last minute idea for me, so I bought the supermarket cinnamon teabags rather than the loose tea called for on Saturday night when I had the brainstorm to do this. I have a very fine tea shop, House of Tea all of around the corner from my house. Next time I try this I'll use a loose cinnamon spiced tea as Phil recommends. But the tannin problem is one that I've had before with all sorts of tea infusions, not just in vermouth. I think a shorter time frame is called for. I think alcohol just strips the tannin out of the tea into solution really quickly, and that's something to think about when doing the tea infusions. I think that slightly raising the temperature of the alcohol base in a hot water bath (as per Audrey's advice on this topic) might make it go quicker and more efficiently as well...

Edited by KatieLoeb, 19 October 2009 - 12:03 PM.

[Richard Kilgore]

I don't know alcohol infusions, so I may be way off. Take this with a grain of your experienced salt.

My guess is that the problem with your tea infusions is the quality of the tea. Tea bags are highly likely to give you an astringent pucker or worse just by looking at them. As Chris mentioned, high quality Ceylon teas might be a good place to start. Check out the Ceylon teas at your local shop or the Ceylon (Sri Lanka) teas listed under black teas at teasource.com. Their best ones show little or no astringency when brewed hot.

I'll be interested to see how this works out.

[Chris Amirault]

I bet that stuff would make a killer Martinez or rye Manhattan.

Potential understatement of the year! I missed the previous discussion about the Mother's Ruin Punch, but the cinnamon tea infused vermouth sounds like an amazing idea. Perhaps a Red Hook variation, using it in place of the Punt e Mes?

I dashed some cinnamon tincture into a Martinez tonight (Broker's, M&R rosso, Luxardo, Angostura) to get a sense of how it might work sans tea. The cinnamon leads on the nose and finishes on the palate, but is still subtle. Definitely worth playing around with this.

[KatieLoeb]

It's clearly worth playing around with this, but I suppose I was addressing the bigger issue. Vermouth has a lower alcohol level than say gin or vodka. There seems to be that imperceptible moment in the space-time continuum where tea infusions go from delicious to saliva stripping tannin bombs. There has to be some method of calculating/accounting for/working around that beyond the obvious "more tea, less time" equation.

[Chris Amirault]

I think that Richard and I are pointing out that, along with asking these smart technique questions, you can also modify the type of tea. I'm drinking a Dian Hong Imperial Yunnan black tea from Norbu tea right now, and it's far less tannic (and far more rich and complex) than any store-bought black tea; seeing this topic made me think about using it in Erik's Swedish punsch recipe next time I make it. I'll bet that the House of Tea folks would gladly walk you through their Ceylon tea options to make a good match. And, since you just want tea and cinnamon, you could easily tailor it to your tastes.

I can see I'm talking myself into this project....

[KatieLoeb]

I'll inquire about the Ceylon teas when I stop at House of Tea on my day off. I might also try the quick brew tea we use for iced tea at the restaurant that doesn't seem terribly tannic with some cinnamon sticks and perhaps just a couple of star anise. First I have to convince them to let me replace our Oyster House Punch (my own twist on Philadelphia Fish House Punch) with Mother's Ruin for the season. It just tastes much more autumnal. I'll be presenting it to management on Wednesday so I'll see how it goes.

And of course if you figure out the answer to this quandry, please let us all know...

Edited by KatieLoeb, 20 October 2009 - 10:48 AM.

[KatieLoeb]

Slightly OT to vermouth but still on the topic of Mother's Ruin, I'm going to try skin this cat a different way. I have oceans of spiced simple syrup in the walk in at work. I'm going to reheat it and quick steep some tea in that, strain and then use it in the punch recipe in place of the club soda simple syrup. Then I can just add the vermouth as is as see how that works out...I'll report back.

[mkayahara]

Does anyone know anything about Cinzano rosé vermouth? I came across it recently in the Quebec liquor system, and was wondering whether it would be worthwhile to pick up a bottle. I have no idea what kind of flavour profile it would have.

[bostonapothecary]

Does anyone know anything about Cinzano rosé vermouth? I came across it recently in the Quebec liquor system, and was wondering whether it would be worthwhile to pick up a bottle. I have no idea what kind of flavour profile it would have.

i'm never come across rose vermouth but i suspect it aspires to be similar to chamberyzette but relies on fruit contrast from the wine base as opposed to a fruit infusion.

vermouths usually contain a certain spectrum of round, fruity character because there aren't many options that won't overshadow all of the contrasting, angular, enigmatic botanicals.

the round character of most vermouths exist in a space between elderflower, moscat, and orange because there are lots of common botanicals that can be used to adjust the tonality and they take on sugar very well.

the strawberry-raspberry through watermelon spectrum is probably more difficult to produce. sometimes the wine bases of any rose or a grignolino (an indigenous italian varietal i've read that has been used in aromatized wines) is really dense in flavor and it has great potential to overshadow any contrasts you give it. adding sugar sometimes makes it taste even denser. also not much in the way of botanicals can be used to adjust it tonaly.

based on whats available in the market, vermouth producer seem to agree that vermouth should not have overshadowing elements. the mixer should be able to do it for himself (spoonful of x). based on old recipes that had lots of vanilla i don't think that used to be true.

anyhow, i'd say pick up the bottle and give us a review...

[slkinsey]

My guess is that Cinzano's "Rosso" product is similar to Martini & Rossi's "Rosato" product. They appear to be an attempt to split the difference between their "Extra Dry" and "Rosso" bottlings -- perhaps simply by blending the two.

[KD1191]

Cinzano says:

Cinzano Rosé is one of the more recent flavours with a rosy colour and orange highlights, thanks to the use of white and rosè wines. It has a sweet, warm and aromatic flavour with a distinct flavouring of roses.

[mkayahara]

Cinzano says:

Cinzano Rosé is one of the more recent flavours with a rosy colour and orange highlights, thanks to the use of white and rosè wines. It has a sweet, warm and aromatic flavour with a distinct flavouring of roses.

Thanks! I saw that after I posted, and realized belatedly that I should have checked with the producer first. That said, "sweet, warm and aromatic" doesn't offer much information. But roses? That's intriguing. Isn't there a thread around here for cocktails with rosewater in them?

I think I just talked myself into buying a bottle. Good thing vermouth is a relatively inexpensive proposition.

[Vieux Carré]

With all of the great cocktails that call for Italian Vermouth, I have no trouble working my way through a bottle of sweet vermouth before it begins to loose its best qualities. On the other hand, despite the degree to which I love martinis and like the Old Pal, the Bensonhurst, and the Berlioni. I don't seem to drink enough cocktails that call for dry vermouth to kill a bottle quickly enough. I was wondering if anyone could recommend some really great cocktails that call for dry vermouth to help me keep my French Vermouth fresh.

[KD1191]

I was wondering if anyone could recommend some really great cocktails that call for dry vermouth to help me keep my French Vermouth fresh.

If you can find Amer Picon, or a reasonable facsimile, try a Brooklyn. I'm quite fond of the Bronx and Income Tax--Bronx with bitters--but those both sweet in them as well, so they aren't going to help you even out the consumption of the two. Michael Rubel's Dogwood Manhattan (Woodford Reserve, Noilly Prat Dry, Amaro Nonino and Peach Bitters) is mind-blowing, but I can't find the exact proportions online anywhere.

[thirtyoneknots]

With all of the great cocktails that call for Italian Vermouth, I have no trouble working my way through a bottle of sweet vermouth before it begins to loose its best qualities. On the other hand, despite the degree to which I love martinis and like the Old Pal, the Bensonhurst, and the Berlioni. I don't seem to drink enough cocktails that call for dry vermouth to kill a bottle quickly enough. I was wondering if anyone could recommend some really great cocktails that call for dry vermouth to help me keep my French Vermouth fresh.

If you don't like drinking it on the rocks with a twist enough to use the bottle up quickly it is also fabulous as a cooking wine, try steaming mussels in it sometime.

[brinza]

My guess is that Cinzano's "Rosso" product is similar to Martini & Rossi's "Rosato" product. They appear to be an attempt to split the difference between their "Extra Dry" and "Rosso" bottlings -- perhaps simply by blending the two.

Sam, are you sure that M&R's Rosato is merely a blend of the two? I haven't had it, but an ad for it that I just saw which makes it seems like a different product altogether. The copy from the ad reads: "A crafted blend of light Mediterranean aromatics including citrus fruits and crisp raspberry complemented by soft notes of cinnamon and nutmeg." That doesn't suggest a blend of dry and sweet vermouths to me.

With all of the great cocktails that call for Italian Vermouth, I have no trouble working my way through a bottle of sweet vermouth before it begins to loose its best qualities. On the other hand, despite the degree to which I love martinis and like the Old Pal, the Bensonhurst, and the Berlioni. I don't seem to drink enough cocktails that call for dry vermouth to kill a bottle quickly enough. I was wondering if anyone could recommend some really great cocktails that call for dry vermouth to help me keep my French Vermouth fresh.

Here are some of my favorite cocktails that use dry vermouth in different ways:

The Rose is a good one.
2 ounces dry vermouth
1 ounce of kirschwasser
1 tsp of raspberry syrup.
Very dry. Lovely floral/fruity taste.

Vermouth Cassis.
Dry vermouth with a dash of creme de cassis.

Japalac
1 ounce dry vermouth
1 ounce rye or bourbon
3/4 ounce orange juice
dash raspberry syrup

Bamboo
Equal measures dry sherry and dry vermouth
Dash of orange bitters

The Reverse (some call it upside down) Martini is a great way to use up dry vermouth.
2 ounces vermouth, 1/2 ounce gin. Bitters if you want.

[shantytownbrown]

Bamboo
Equal measures dry sherry and dry vermouth
Dash of orange bitters

made this for the first time yesterday for my wife, who quite enjoyed it, used Dolin Dry...
my reference called it an East India Cocktail (variation)...

[eje]

We often speculate about how much "Italian Vermouth" might have changed since it's commercial invention, but people seldom question the nature of French Vermouth.

I often wonder when I come across cocktail recipes that call for a dashes of French Vermouth. It just makes no sense to use modern Dry Vermouth. I might as well add a dash of water.

How have the formulations of French Vermouth producers drifted from what might have been produced at the beginning of the 20th Century?

Were the "French" vermouth formulations of that time closer to what is sold today as blanc/bianco vermouth?

Like most other aperitifs, has "French" vermouth drifted towards drier and lighter?

[eje]

The other drinks which make me wonder about the historical character of Dry Vermouth, are those modeled on a sour, but with Dry Vermouth instead of Lemon Juice.

Some early recipes for the Clover Club, Snicker, etc.

[bostonapothecary]

We often speculate about how much "Italian Vermouth" might have changed since it's commercial invention, but people seldom question the nature of French Vermouth.

I often wonder when I come across cocktail recipes that call for a dashes of French Vermouth. It just makes no sense to use modern Dry Vermouth. I might as well add a dash of water.

How have the formulations of French Vermouth producers drifted from what might have been produced at the beginning of the 20th Century?

Were the "French" vermouth formulations of that time closer to what is sold today as blanc/bianco vermouth?

Like most other aperitifs, has "French" vermouth drifted towards drier and lighter?

there are tons of "finger prints" of what was drank at even the beginning of the 20th century. vermouth was economically very significant and techniques of studying it were very sophisticated. really common measurements were alcohol, extract (broken down into its components), total acid (broken down), PH, alkaloids (which i think implies bitterness), and tannin

from Amerines abstracts..

in 1889-1890 Boireau, R. distinguishes sweet and dry as well as "mellow aromatic and ordinary vermouths" in the annual report of the board of the state viticultural commissioners.

by 1905 there were papers being published on defining vermouth mainly to enforce a percentage of wine that had to be present.

from 1904 there is also a paper by mensio, c. and a. levi that analyzes twelve turin vermouths from the paris exposition of 1900. the paper notes that there were large differences between minimums and maximums of the metrics they measured.

another few papers from the beginning of the century, show that many of the vermouths had more volatile acid (acetic) than we would tolerate today.

so basically we can know a lot about what was being consumed. in the modern era, one important distinction is vermouths made from real wines that evolve when aged or opened and near neutral wines that are basically inert vessels for alcohol and natural acidity. in the inert wines all aromas comes solely from the botanicals.

i've collected lots of these research papers on vermouth, but what i'm really looking for are similar papers on aperitifs and liqueurs. the old sugar contents could really tell us a lot.

[eje]

One interesting departure I see between French Vermouth and Modern is the wine used.

For French Vermouth, it is noted that the wine used was often Picpoul de Pinet, aka Lip Stinger. From what I understand a rather tart wine.

I have a bottle sitting around that I have been meaning to experiment with.

Do you think modern vermouth producers are using still using similar wines?

I know as a grape, Picpoul de Pinet fell out of favor with wine producers after the Phyloxera epidemic, due to its susceptibility to fungal disease.