204 replies to this topic

[k43]

Park Avenue Liquor (292 Madison Ave.) carries Vya in NYC, as well as all the others.

I've also gotten Boissiere at Astor Place. I use it a lot for deglazing.

[tkd7]

I typically use Martini & Rossi sweet and dry vermouth for my cocktails. I will also try Punt e Mes in cocktails calling for red vermouth to experiment with the taste.

Without locating and buying the different vermouths on the market, I was wondering what the different flavor profiles of the brands are and any personal recommendations.

Thanks

[themaninwhite]

my default sweet vermouth is the carpano antica formula, which i prefer to the m&r. it's a little more sweet and mellow than the punt e mes, and to my taste nothing (for the money) can beat a 2:1 rittenhouse:antica manhattan with a few dashes of hermes orange bitters. *drool*

[mkayahara]

For what it's worth, I've gotten the impression while browsing through these forums that the default preferences for "everyday" vermouth were Noilly Prat for white and Cinzano for red. There are lots who prefer the more top-shelf products like Vya or Antica Formula, although these may require you to adjust your recipes. There are also a couple of defenders of M&R.

When I was running low on M&R Rosso, I did a taste test of it against the Cinzano (blind; I had my partner pour the glasses). I preferred the Cinzano, which seemed to be more complex and less cloying. For dry vermouth, I skipped the taste test, because I couldn't even bring myself to drink the M&R straight. In both cases, I'm willing to accept that the M&R may have been oxidized, as the open bottles had been around for a while.

Hope that helps!

[Bricktop]

Interesting to see this thread bumped. In the Drinks! thread, I just posted about my experiences making a Metropole. The version with the dry Vya was as repulsive a drink as I have had, while the Noilly Prat version is (I am savoring it now) delightful. The Vya was just clashing, while the NP is harmonious. I think I have successfully used the dry Vya dry elsewhere, (Martinez Cocktail Variation), but I honestly don't see a recurring place for it in my bar. I preferred M&R dry over Vya in my Algonquin's also.

On the other hand, the Vya sweet is lovely, and has had no conflicts. It will always be second choice to the Carpano Antica in my top shelf Manhattans and Red Hooks, but that's no slight. It is not as hard to find as the Antica, so while I am very sparing with the latter (ie for my gullet only), I have no problem in serving Vya sweet to company.

[bostonapothecary]

...bringing back a thread to keep things on track

i need to spend more time with dubbonet rouge... when i worked the bar at the art museum we went through ton's of it... now i pour it less than once a month... probably in need of a revival... i wish i could participate in the revival of barolo chinato but alas you can't get that here... i'm really curious to its sugar content. i know the makers look for a minimalist embellishment to preserve some terrior...

i think i want an aromatized wine that tastes like leather with notes of orange...
or earthy and animalic to contrast tropical fruit flavors to carribeanesque drinks...

do any classic bittered wines match those descriptions that i've overlooked?

[eje]

re: Dubonnet Rouge

One interesting thing I've read regarding Dubonnet Rouge is that the Dubonnet we get in the US is made in Kentucky by Heaven Hill.

Apparently, in Canada and elsewhere, they get Dubbonet made in France. I've not tried the French Dubonnet myself; but, some folks have said that it is noticeably different from the Dubonnet we get here.

re: Barolo Chinato

To me it is nowhere near as sweet as most liqueur or most alcohol based Amaro. There are a number of brands, though, so there may be some variability.

The only one I've tried, Cocchi, seems somewhere around, or a little less sweet than, some of the Late Bottled Vintage or Ruby Ports I've tried.

[Morgan_Weber]

I'm relatively new to cocktails. That in mind, I'm going to the liquor store this afternoon to get some Vya sweet and dry vermouth. How long can I expect it to stay tasty after it is opened? Should I vacuum seal it like I would regular wine and keep it in the fridge or will it be fine with the other liquors in the cabinet?

Thanks.

[slkinsey]

Vacuum seal and keep it in the refrigerator. If you can, see if you can pick up the half-bottles instead of the full bottles.

[mkayahara]

I've noticed lately that the flavour in my open bottles of vermouth has started to head south, so I think it's time to replace them. However, I feel really bad about simply dumping the remainder of the current bottles. Any suggestions on how to use them up? I frequently cook with dry vermouth, in things like risotto or, well, anything that calls for white wine. But what can you do with sweet vermouth once it's past its prime?

[prasantrin]

I've noticed lately that the flavour in my open bottles of vermouth has started to head south, so I think it's time to replace them. However, I feel really bad about simply dumping the remainder of the current bottles. Any suggestions on how to use them up? I frequently cook with dry vermouth, in things like risotto or, well, anything that calls for white wine. But what can you do with sweet vermouth once it's past its prime?

Make some kind of vermouth jelly? (The jell-o type, not the stuff to put on toast.)

[bostonapothecary]

so i took a stab at making dry vermouth...

pretty good stuff. i used a beautiful wine and really nice stuff to fortify it... minerality was gorgeous but the botanicals i used to aromatize it ended up very much like cinnamon and clove... (i didn't add any clove or cinnamon)

i'm not a huge expert on dry vermouth. i don't drink dry gin martini's. when i drink dry vermouth its usually as an acid to balance a spoonful or so of something sweet...

what do people want in a dry vermouth??

higher quality wine definitely can make things interesting... any fruit character to use as a contrast to botanicals...?

what theory is used to justify the beauty people see in vermouth over gin...

compare / contrast ?

i would love to preserve and aromatize one of loimer's reislings... it brings incredible acidity and strange concentrations of flavor... is that fair game or do you have to use a wine that is flawed and try to breath some life back into it?

[thirtyoneknots]

I could see Viognier, particularly one from the Northern Rhone or Australia making an interesting base, high acid and very floral character. I would feel bad using a nice bottle of it, though. Also not sure how stable it would be (I know the fortification shoudl help, but still). I would think Austrian Riesling might be a little on the austere side, though I've never had one from Loimer. Grenache Blanc might be a good one, already having some spice characteristics, but the affordable ones can be flabby. M. Chapoutier Belleruche CdR Blanc 2006 might work, rated very highly and not terribly expensive. I haven't tried the 06, but the 05 was very nice indeed for the price. It already has a similar mouthfeel to vermouth.

[bostonapothecary]

I could see Viognier, particularly one from the Northern Rhone or Australia making an interesting base, high acid and very floral character. I would feel bad using a nice bottle of it, though. Also not sure how stable it would be (I know the fortification shoudl help, but still). I would think Austrian Riesling might be a little on the austere side, though I've never had one from Loimer. Grenache Blanc might be a good one, already having some spice characteristics, but the affordable ones can be flabby. M. Chapoutier Belleruche CdR Blanc 2006 might work, rated very highly and not terribly expensive. I haven't tried the 06, but the 05 was very nice indeed for the price. It already has a similar mouthfeel to vermouth.

viognier is one of my favorite grapes. but i've always known it to be rich and low acid... i have some torrontes that needs a home that is similar but with more acid. it sort of has a cat pea like character on the nose.

i'm wondering if dry vermouth should be thought of as a mild acid. fortified only to preserve it and minimally spiced only to correct any blandness. does it pair with gin because of its botanicals or because of its acidity?

[thirtyoneknots]

does it pair with gin because of its botanicals or because of its acidity?

Botanicals, I would say. The fatness and low acidity of vermouth lend a hand in smoothing out gin when it is used in appropriate quantity.

[marty mccabe]

would love to preserve and aromatize one of loimer's reislings... it brings incredible acidity and strange concentrations of flavor... is that fair game or do you have to use a wine that is flawed and try to breath some life back into it?

I've got mixed feelings there: I'm the NE manager for Loimer's importer, so anything that encourages more Loimer to be drank...hey, great!

That said, there's a lot more body in a Loimer Riesling than I think one might want in vermouth, as well as some residual sugar (about 7 grams in the Kamptal).

What about a nice muscadet? Great acidity, light body. Seems like an ideal vehicle...

[bostonapothecary]

would love to preserve and aromatize one of loimer's reislings... it brings incredible acidity and strange concentrations of flavor... is that fair game or do you have to use a wine that is flawed and try to breath some life back into it?

I've got mixed feelings there: I'm the NE manager for Loimer's importer, so anything that encourages more Loimer to be drank...hey, great!

That said, there's a lot more body in a Loimer Riesling than I think one might want in vermouth, as well as some residual sugar (about 7 grams in the Kamptal).

What about a nice muscadet? Great acidity, light body. Seems like an ideal vehicle...

vya uses moscat... its a pretty cool grape. i don't have enough experience with it and should probably try more of them. presently i'm sipping some vya dry and his tastes rather similar to my first edition where i used a mineraly macabeo...

isn't more body often an asset? especially when it take more than you think to dilute the wine fortifying it...

using loimer would be like the barolo chinato of the dry category =) not decadent but advanced... i love the kamptal...

[thirtyoneknots]

I am really not much of a fan of Vya Dry; for 3x the price of Noilly Prat you get a product that takes over every cocktail except Martinis. Don't believe me? Try a Metropole (1.5 each of brandy and dry, 2 dashes ob, 1 dash Peychaud's, up with a twist) sometime with each kind of vermouth. My money is that you'll want to pour out the one with Vya. There's some weird way that it clashes. I wonder if it uses lots of new oak or something.

[bostonapothecary]

I am really not much of a fan of Vya Dry; for 3x the price of Noilly Prat you get a product that takes over every cocktail except Martinis. Don't believe me? Try a Metropole (1.5 each of brandy and dry, 2 dashes ob, 1 dash Peychaud's, up with a twist) sometime with each kind of vermouth. My money is that you'll want to pour out the one with Vya. There's some weird way that it clashes. I wonder if it uses lots of new oak or something.

maybe you just have the wrong brandy... it might want armagnac... you gotta stage a fair fight...

if you only had one brandy like an artistic constraint... i wouldn't really make the drink out of the book... subsidize the brandy... it leads to a different drink but the goal i'm sure was just some sort of massive liquid sophistication...

Edited by bostonapothecary, 16 December 2007 - 06:33 PM.

[MaxH]

I scanned this thread, but despite all the discussion of vermouth composition I didn't spot the point that might be very interesting or timely right now.

It's widely understood that vermouth traditionally is herb-flavored wine. There are many modern versions, but does everyone know the original herb that gave this product its name?

Vermouth is the anglicized form of the German Wermut (pronounced similarly), German for the wormwood plant. (As in Artemisia absinthium, source of the name of a distilled spirit using it that's lately returning to fashionability.)

That history was publicized in one of the major modern US absinthe-liquor writings prior to 10 years ago, although I don't see it emphasized in the recent online absinthe-hobbyist FAQs. I'll add from my own reading that the modern reference-size German-English dictionary I use renders the English "vermouth" back into German as equivalent to "wormwood wine." FYI.

[thirtyoneknots]

I am really not much of a fan of Vya Dry; for 3x the price of Noilly Prat you get a product that takes over every cocktail except Martinis. Don't believe me? Try a Metropole (1.5 each of brandy and dry, 2 dashes ob, 1 dash Peychaud's, up with a twist) sometime with each kind of vermouth. My money is that you'll want to pour out the one with Vya. There's some weird way that it clashes. I wonder if it uses lots of new oak or something.

maybe you just have the wrong brandy... it might want armagnac... you gotta stage a fair fight...

if you only had one brandy like an artistic constraint... i wouldn't really make the drink out of the book... subsidize the brandy... it leads to a different drink but the goal i'm sure was just some sort of massive liquid sophistication...

FWIW I like a Spanish Brandy in that one.

[TAPrice]

Everyone says I should store opened vermouth in my frig. I'm been faithfully following that advice. But now I wonder if my wine cooler, set at 55º F, would do just as well. Any thoughts?

[thirtyoneknots]

Everyone says I should store opened vermouth in my frig. I'm been faithfully following that advice. But now I wonder if my wine cooler, set at 55º F, would do just as well. Any thoughts?

I would imagine that the extra coldness of the fridge would help moderately. I don't think storing it in a wine cooler would be a bad idea, it's just that for me theres more interesting things to put in the wine fridge than vermouth

[chefboy24]

my default sweet vermouth is the carpano antica formula, which i prefer to the m&r.  it's a little more sweet and mellow than the punt e mes, and to my taste nothing (for the money) can beat a 2:1  rittenhouse:antica manhattan with a few dashes of hermes orange bitters.  *drool*

sounds delish

try a 2:1 knob:vya sweet with some peychauds and an orange twist.. heaven!

[slkinsey]

Has anyone tried the "Vermouth Classico" from Casa Martelletti? I picked up a few bottles recently and have been liking it a lot. It's made on a base of moscato.

Edited by slkinsey, 28 February 2008 - 09:27 PM.

[bostonapothecary]

has anyone ever seen "cinzano reserva dry vermouth"?

"a select blend of chardonnay and other fine wines"

the color is very interesting. it is a golden straw color and isn't fined very well... how old could this stuff be?

i just picked up a few bottles of it along with and old version of campari...

[bostonapothecary]

has anyone ever seen "cinzano reserva dry vermouth"?

"a select blend of chardonnay and other fine wines"

the color is very interesting. it is a golden straw color and isn't fined very well... how old could this stuff be?

i just picked up a few bottles of it along with and old version of campari...

so i gave the cinzano dry reserva another test drive with some food... i know some people are into the spirited pairings... i drank it simply refrigerated... the vermouth on its own is very challenging to describe. its dry but not as dry as any conventional dry vermouth. i think it underwent maloactic fermenation like alot of softer acid style white wines... it is very hard to determine where the botanicals stop and the wine begins. and overall there is some kind of a funk like a really terroir driven white wine... like a vermentino from provance i have on the list or livio felluga's tocai friulano from the colli orientali... a shade of earthiness...

the food was from my regular take out joint.... chris schlessinger's allstar sandwitch bar...

Papa al Pomodoro: Tomato, Fried Garlic, and Bread Soup...

so this is a really good soup and i think i've eaten it four days in a row. it has some amalfi herbs in it. rosemary and parsley... its hard to describe its acidity or if its ameliorated with sugar like some tomato sauces... this makes the vermouth tastes like a very ancient tawny port or a good example of a white port. but the analogy isn't so straight forward. its like seeing a mirage of a tawny. its the first thing that comes to mind but you don't get the right mouthfeel... its there for a moment and then its gone... i bet its the effect of really similar acidities making the wine seem fuller in the mouth. the botanicals in the vermouth seem to be subtracted and your brain only recognizes the expression of fruit... you can get similarly structured comparisions out of barolo chinato and chocolate where the bitter of the chocolate matches the bitter of the chinato and your brain is left with only the fruit...

Ham, Swiss, Mango Preserves & Watercress Pressed on Whole Wheat

this sandwitch was one i've never had and is a great variation of their mango chutney, cheese, and watercress theme... if i had a wine i think i'd want a viognier but the vermouth proved really interesting for something "dry"... the influence of the chutney, making the sandwitch slightly sweeter than the vermouth i think, brought into focus the most vivid flavor of banana that was realer than any i can remember eating... banana is an inherent flavor of many chardonnays and its cousin grapes... i would have never predicted the food could make the vermouth taste so drastically different but intensely recognizable... it wasn't the most elegant trasnformation but it was definitely interesting...

i think i just drank 10 oz. of dry vermouth...

[brinza]

2 questions:

Pennsylvania lists two vermouths identified as "Quady Vermouth". They sell for $18 a 750ml bottle. Would these be the Vya products? No wonder I never noticed them before! I guess we've had Vya all along, and I never realized it. The stores closest to me don't stock them (which is why I've never seen the actual bottles), but I would only have to go a little farther to get them.

Second, while there is much discussion on the storage and shelf-life of opened vermouth, how long can one expect to be able to keep a bottle of unopened vermouth? I imagine that some of it probably sits on the store shelves and in warehouses for longer than we'd care to admit. What I'm wondering is, is it safe to stock up on seldom seen vermouth products as long as they're kept unopened until needed?

[lostmyshape]

Pennsylvania lists two vermouths identified as "Quady Vermouth".  They sell for $18 a 750ml bottle.  Would these be the Vya products?

um... maybe? PA has stocked vya from time to time. i've only seen the extra dry (in east liberty) recently.

Second, while there is much discussion on the storage and shelf-life of opened vermouth, how long can one expect to be able to keep a bottle of unopened vermouth? 

nearly indefinitely, right? i mean, it's fortified wine, so as long as air doesn't get to it, it should be fine. alchemist and others say an opened bottle only lasts 2 weeks and you should toss vermouth after that. well, it may start degrading after 2 weeks, but i'm guessing we've all kept them around longer than that. sure, they're not as good after a week or so, but i've had vermouths (and quinquinas) opened for a couple months and not noticed any "off" flavors. not as good as when first opened, but not bad enough to justify tossing a half-full bottle of $18 vya. doesn't hurt to throw out a $5 martini & rossi, though. if in doubt, taste to see if it's kicked the bucket.

Edited by lostmyshape, 29 May 2008 - 01:24 PM.

[bostonapothecary]

Second, while there is much discussion on the storage and shelf-life of opened vermouth, how long can one expect to be able to keep a bottle of unopened vermouth?  I imagine that some of it probably sits on the store shelves and in warehouses for longer than we'd care to admit.  What I'm wondering is, is it safe to stock up on seldom seen vermouth products as long as they're kept unopened until needed?

vermouth does age in the bottle... maynard amerine notes that people have been interested in studying the aging of aromatized fortified wines but noone has really gotten around to it... there are tons of fortified dessert wines with similar structure to vermouth besides the botanicals and their aging is known to be very slow...

dessert wines (high sugar) supposedly age very fast to start and then slow down drastically and move slower than regular dry wines...

i've tasted bottles of stock with weird labels that were probably on a shelf for a decade and they were still fun to drink. the cinzano reserva dry that i've written about is probably very old and therefore affected by aging... i'm lucky to have alot of old white wine experience. the old cinzano tastes alot like old dry white wines i've had... a little worn down... probably better younger... but still interesting.

if you save something unopened and drink it within the decade i say go for it... and when you buy it write the date on the bottle so you can blog about it down the road... and the way alot of the M&R sweet and dry's taste, i'd say they have some really efficient supply chain management... i wish they put born on dates on them... though i still don't like M&R and find their stuff unelegant... maybe its the lack of age?

i think campari ages (slowly) and i think cynar probably does too... its so low in alcohol and seldom used you would have cause to worry about an opened bottle...

amerine referenced vermouth aging in "dessert, appetizer, and related flavored wines, technology of their production" maybe i can track it down...