122 replies to this topic

[Mayhaw Man]

O.K.-Two weeks ago I was ready for my families big Fishing Adventure in Ontario and a couple of days in Winnipeg when I came home to water all over the tile floor of my kitchen. It would seem that my dishwasher blew a hose and then blew water all over my kitchen. Unfortunately the only way to get the dishwasher out was to remove some of the flooring. No big deal, the boys and my wife were out of town and I figured I could get it out and repaired in one day.

Well, it turned out that there must have been a slow leak and that the subflooring was soaked. I was gonna have to tear out all of the tile. Well, that's ok, we had been talking about doing it for a while.

Somehow, eight hours later, without asking anyone or thinking it through beyond the end of the tear out, I had removed two walls and torn out the laundry room. Leaving myself with no kitchen, no cabinets worth saving and nowhere to cook.







So there you go. My wife, well she's kind of a trooper after twenty years of living with me, took it pretty well and said that it was about time. My kids, they don't care much as long as they get fed. So here we go.

As you can see from the photos the place is a mess. But the good news is that it is a very big mess (13x30 rectangle plus the area where you can see the pots hanging and the floor still down-that is a very large island with a pot sink in it and it now houses a large griddle, a hot plate, a rice cooker, and a crock pot. I also have a nice bullet smoker, a cool brick pit, and a just purchased stainless steel BBQ Pit of undetermined brand from Sams which has two burners on the side of it as well-so we won't starve)

The long boards that you see there (with the yellow paint on them are cypress and perfect and straight and you couldn't buy them for love or money these days) came from the interior of my plaster walls (the ones I hammered out) and they will be planed and become cabinet fronts. We have measured (or the cabinet guy did) and there is plenty for what I want to do. We are having new cabinets built, I am replacing the ice box (which has needed to be replaced for about five years ) and adding an ice machine. The laundry room will be moved (actually that should be complete by Monday afternoon) and the kitchen will then be huge. There will be a sitting area by the fireplace that you see there and pretty much the rest will be cabinets (primarily drawers-big ones) in the base cabinets and open, glass fronted ones on top. All of this will be farmhouse style (for lack of a better term-I live in the country, but we don't decorate that way and in fact artwork display is a major consideration-my wife is an artist and a dealer and we have been collecting since long before we could afford it) cabinetry as that is what should be here given the age of this place (100 yrs) and the way that it is designed.

It will all be wired for sound and there will be a cool built in desk for a computer and stuff (replacing the desk that you see the computer on now). As I said, I have done all of the tearout myself and I will do most of the electrical, plumbing, and rough in. Someone else is making and installing the cabinets. I will put down the floor (8 inch heart pine tongue in groove, just like the rest of the house) and finish out all of the walls.

Here are my questions for today-

My wife seems to think that a refrigerator freezer with a bottom, pull out freezer is the way to go. Is this the case? Yes or no and why not.

I need a new ice machine. Ice is key to a good life here and we go through plenty of it. Any recomendations? My old whirlpool was prone to conking out, so I need some fresh ideas.

I am keeping my OKeefe and Merrit Stove because I love it, but am thinking about putting in an electric oven. Convection or no? Why? Any suggestions?

Incidentally-don't bother with telling me about commercial grade appliances. I'm not falling for that and am not interested. Top quality home appliances are where I am looking and any advice would be most welcome.

I will update the photos as we go along for those of you that are interested.

And no, this is not the first time I have done something like this. I once hooked a chain to my Ford F350 4WD and hooked the other end to the back support post in my old garage/barn/tool shed. It looked worse than the kitchen, but it was really fun and the neighborhood boys were VERY impressed (the adult neighbors seemed less so )

So that's what I did today. If I'm lucky the whole thing will be finished by the time it starts cooling off (mid October is what I am shooting for. Once I get the floor down (this week) I can kind of start living in it again, so it won't be that bad.

[andiesenji]

I have an older U-line icemaker that has been working perfectly for 8 years.
ice makers

[beans]

Wow.

Nothing of substance to add other than: Cool! A new kitchen on the way!

[donk79]

Mayhaw, can't give any advice, there are few less qualified to give it than myself, but here's a cheer of support! Go for it brother! Amen!!

[Rachel Perlow]

If you are getting a separate ice maker, then I agree with your wife that a bottom drawer freezer is the way to go. It is more economical both price-wise and energy efficiency-wise (heat rises, so coldest part on the bottom makes the most sense). Like I said, as long as you don't want it for ice or water dispensing. Everything in the fridge is at a great height and you have nice wide shelves for when you need to get in party platters or what have you. Get the pull out drawer for the bottom, rather than the kind where there's a cabinet like door, and then bins to pull out. It's great for everything except for having to pull out a huge frozen turkey from the depths.

I so wanted a separate stove top and wall oven because I wanted a gas stove top and an electric oven. As you may or may not know, a by-product of natural gas being heated is H2O. Not good for when you want stuff to get crisp in the oven. The huge gas oven takes a while to heat and retains heat for a LONG time. I have found myself using our small Cusinart convection toaster oven with far greater frequency than our Garland range oven. So, while I don't know anything about your current range, if it has a big gas oven, and you have room for an additional electric oven, I don't think you'll regret having it, especially with convection.

Yeah, wood floors! I'm not going to let anyone talk me out of wood floors in the kitchen, next time I have to do a kitchen. I have decided I hate tile. Tile sucks.

[zilla369]

Heh....this reminds me of the Kevin Bacon movie, "A Stir of Echoes" - wherein he totally destroys the backyard and basement by digging while his wife and son are away.

Hey, it's on-topic....I said "bacon"!

[Smithy]

Ye cats, man! You sure do know to come back from a vacation!

I live almost as far up into the frozen north as you recently vacated, so I don't know about separate ice makers; Rachel's points about the bottom freezer if you have a separate ice maker all make sense. Certainly it makes physical sense to put the freezer underneath everything else. However, my friends who invested in a bottom drawer freezer were disappointed with it. It was a big pull-out bin with multiple compartments (as Rachel recommends), but they were still forever bending down and trying to unearth the wanted thing from the very bottom of its compartment. As I watch dear friends age (but not me! ) I'm finding that the last thing they want to do is have to squat down to a bottom drawer, not even to get something like the frozen chicken for tonight's dinner.

Good luck, have fun, and hang onto your sense of humor! I love the image of the neighborhood boys standing around goggle-eyed at your last renovation project.

Nancy

[Mayhaw Man]

Rachel,

It is definitely going to be electric, whether convection or not. I hate electric ranges, but electric is the way to go with the oven (especially given the local price of gas-you would think since it came from here it would be cheap bt your cf price in NJ was probably lower than ours this winter). Baking is soooo nice in one that has cool timers and programability. I can't wait. I love my old OK and M, but it is not exactly state of the art baking in that thing.

I have a seperate freezer and so tons of freezer space is not an issue. I don't really care much about water and ice in the door since my intention is to get a new ice maker (app 15 lbs per day-big I know, but for 8 months a year we use that much). I would like to get one that makes cubes and not "wet ice", but really don't have very strong feelings either way.


My house has wood floors in every inch of it and for some reason we decided to tile the kitchen when we redid it twelve years ago. I must have been hammered when I thought that idea up. I have hated that tile since the day I put it down. This place is a mess, but I am glad that I am not looking at that tile anymore.

[bleachboy]

On the freezer: I prefer a bottom-loader myself, mostly because I grew up with one and it just seems "right" to me. Since you're going to be installing an ice machine, ice storage is not a consideration. The big drawback, though, is that stuff tends to sink to the bottom, only to be forgotten permanently. You eventually find the meat loaf labeled "1/4/1999" but it's waay too late. Do you have a deep freezer for that kind of stuff? If so, a bottom freezer is great for the "frequently accessed frozen stuff".

On the oven: Normally I shy away from digital type controls. My mother-in-law's oven doesn't work at all due to the flat-panel digital controls completely dying. However, hers is an old model and may have been a second to begin with. But man lemme tell you, every time I go to my mom's house, she has nice double ovens with digital timers, and there's nothing so nice as being able to set something to "195 degrees for four hours, thirty five minutes". So I would definitely recommend something that's all programmable and stuff.

[andiesenji]

Rachel is right about the smaller "counter-top" ovens.
I have the Cadco 1/2 sheet pan size convection oven that is really terrific in this hot weather. (102 today (Saturday), supposed to be 107 Sunday.

My big oven does generate a lot of heat and steam, if I have the steamer on for baking bread. I rarely use it in hot weather.

I also have a combination convection/microwave made by Sharp, it is quite large, the enamel turntable is 15 1/4 inches in diameter. The combination roasting really speeds up roasting meats and poultry and the results are excellent.
I have another Sharp, just microwave, also the largest made, and I use both to make jams and preserves. Actually cook them most of the way in the microwave and finish on the stovetop. I simply can no longer stand for hours over a cooktop, stirring jam. This way I also do not have to worry about scorching.

I do prefer a gas cooktop - however I do have a countertop induction "range" that is very handy for use when I need to cook something over heat but do not want to have to stay in the room for the entire time. I have a total of 9 gas burners but certainly wouldn't go off to the store and leave something cooking over a gas burner.
The induction range has a timer which really helps when I am out in the garden and lose track of time. It is also handy to take along when I am going to be cooking at someone's home, and they do not have enough burners.
They have come down in price considerably since I purchased mine.
induction range

[Anna N]

...
I have a seperate freezer and so tons of freezer space is not an issue. I don't really care much about water and ice in the door since my intention is to get a new ice maker (app 15 lbs per day-big I know, but for 8 months a year we use that much). I would like to get one that makes cubes and not "wet ice", but really don't have very strong feelings either way. ..

Mayhaw Man,
If you have a separate freezer and are not interested in an ice-dispenser on the 'fridge, have you considered going all 'fridge? This is the route my daughter took and it works well for her. Refrigerators without any freezing compartment are not that common and therefore the choice of models is limited but I would definitely go that route myself if I had to replace my unit.

[therese]

I have a freezer on the bottom-type fridge and quite like it. Pull out wire mesh trays. Some tendency for things to get lost on the bottom, but not as bad as things getting lost in the back of my previous top freezer model. I also have a separate chest freezer, so really big stuff goes there.

The real advantage to having the freezer on the botton is that the fridge is then at the perfect height, and I use my fridge much more frequently than my freezer. Sure, it's less than optimum having to bend over to reach things in the freezer, but it's really bad having to bend over to retrieve things from the vegetable crisper.

We remodeled our kitchen this year, and one of the things I love the most is our farmer-style, apron front sink. No divider, just one big basin. I can wash anything in it.

A quiet dishwasher is worth the money. Mine is a Bosch, and I can start it in the middle of a casual dinner party and nobody even notices, even though they're seated less than six feet away.

[fresco]

Brooks, it sounds as though your Canadian trip was inspirational and galvanizing. You should do it more often.

[Rachel Perlow]

I have a seperate freezer and so tons of freezer space is not an issue.

You know it is possible to get a fridge only refridgerator, if the extra freezer is nearby, like in the laundry room, it may be the way to go.

Note: Anna and I must have great minds, since we think alike.

Edited by Rachel Perlow, 25 July 2004 - 06:24 AM.

[Jinmyo]

As beans said, "Wow."

[jsolomon]

If you are getting a separate ice maker, then I agree with your wife that a bottom drawer freezer is the way to go. It is more economical both price-wise and energy efficiency-wise (heat rises, so coldest part on the bottom makes the most sense).

I respectfully disagree with this, as if you add your cold at the bottom and expect it to simply percolate up, you will find that you have the bottom much colder than you want, if you are maintaining temperature at the top. Conversely, if you are maintaining temperature at the bottom with simple percolation, your top will be too warm. Air is a wonderful insulator and doesn't move much in a refrigerator without help.

But, I think the design eggheads took care of that with some well-placed electronics and fans. /disagreement.

I tend to like the design of side-by-side freezer and refrigerators. But, I am a bachelor with no roommates, so my trips to the refrigerator and freezer are for smaller amounts than a family, and more prone to forgetting or eating more convenient types of things. I also tend to think that if you are having a creaky-knee day asking the short people who live upstairs to fish something out of the bottom freezer will have a negative impact on the scheme of freezer item placement. Read: stuff may get lost quicker. Caveat: I don't have kids.

However, congratulations on your decision. I am jealous of your plans--and current kitchen. I wish you the best of luck!

[cakes]

We have a side by side, mainly for the ice thru the door. The estimated cost to run it for a year is $39! These things are so much more efficient than they were just a few years ago. Who cares if one is more effiecient than another, how much could it be?

The joke is that Sears recommends changing the water filter twice a year.........the filters cost $39.

If we had a separate ice machine we would have gone top freezer.

[Rachel Perlow]

Checked Consumer Reports. Interestingly, both the top and bottom mounted refrigerators are pretty close in energy efficiency. Both are better than side-by-side models. They recommend the 33-inch-wide LG brand model #LRDC22731, with its fancy tilt-down bottom-freezer drawer front, ice maker and high energy efficiency rating. However, is costs $1300 and you don't need the ice maker. For around $500 less, you could get the basic Amana or Samsung models,* which actually have slightly more usable space, but with the wide swinging bottom door.

*I'd recommend Sears for online fridge shopping/comparison, they have more brands than CR listed, and far less $ on the basic appliances. Unfortunately, you can't select no ice maker or bottom door type as search options on their website.

Kenmore (Sears brand) does have a freezerless fridge, for $400. Totally basic, but I just looked up how expensive ice makers are ($850 minimum for a Kenmore). Are you sure you don't want a fridge that makes ice? That LG model might be a good compromise. (BTW - Sears doesn't seem to carry LG, but Best Buy does, but I can't find that model on their website, perhaps they could order it? Here's LG's website. The "French doors" look cool.) Whirlpool also makes a freezerless fridge, model #EL7ATRRMQ, which has more bells & whistles (bins & such), and is therefore more expensive ($720) than the Kenmore. Interestingly, they list it with the side-by-side models, because the idea is to pair it up with an all-freezer matching appliance.

[GG Mora]

Here's one really really good reason for folks who don't live near a good bakery not to have a side-by-side: you can't freeze baguettes in them. Unless, of course, you cut them in half, which sort of defeats the purpose, IYAM.

LG makes a fridge with a double-door full-width top that looks pretty awesome.

You go, Brooks. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to hitch my kitchen up to a big old 4x4 and tear that fucker out.

Edited by GG Mora, 25 July 2004 - 07:57 AM.

[Mayhaw Man]

Brooks, it sounds as though your Canadian trip was inspirational and galvanizing. You should do it more often.

Hell, I would end up tearing down my whole house. I won't be able to go on a trip for another three or four years (actually that is not true, we are going camping in Baja over Thanksgiving, Lord knows what I will destroy before that trip )

[Mayhaw Man]

This morning's thought is along the lines of Rachel's suggestion.

I do, in fact, have a seperate freezer, but it is a chest type (and I love it-I can always put it in the garage-I'm not getting rid of it-I get halves of beef a couple of times a year from a guy I kind of coop with-I buy the calves at auction and he takes care of raising them and then I go supervise the butchering-FFA membership pays off for some of us rural types-we all took meat cutting in high school).

I have tons of room now and am thinking about a seperate freezer and refrigerator. My wife thinks (design element interferes with engineering/practicality again-ever seen that ad where the engineer is married to the supermodel? That is much like my real life situation ) that would be a good idea if we could find a set that accepts cabinet fronts. I agree that it would be appealing, but so far I have not found any of that type that are seperates.

Incidentally, I had a 21 foot cypress bar top fall into my hands this morning (most of my friends are crazed collectors of junk and I have a friend that is a set dresser in the movie industry-he finds GREAT stuff all of the time). It is probably pre prohibition and really cool, so that will now have to be incorporated into the countertops. I really need to post a drawing so that I can show you what the hell I am thinking about. It actually makes pretty good sense.

The island that you see at the end of the photo is really large and already has a deep sink with a disposal and I (up to now) have been doing most of my chopping chores and all of my baking stuff on it (it has a huge piece of corian on it and is great for dough, etc-I may eventually change the top, but not now). I am thinking of putting a 2 burner set of eyes in it for parties (keeping gumbo warm, etc). What if I just put a large electric griddle instead of the burner eyes? Does anybody make those things to be built in as stand alone units?

Try to imagine how much fun it is to have all of these knowledgable people at my fingertips. If I ever finish you are all invited over for a big hoe down.

[bilrus]

I think its a nice touch that the computer in the picture is on the Daily Gullet. Good work. And good luck.

[Mayhaw Man]

I think its a nice touch that the computer in the picture is on the Daily Gullet. Good work. And good luck.

It's my homepage. Isn't it everybody's?

[Rachel Perlow]

I have tons of room now and am thinking about a seperate freezer and refrigerator. My wife thinks ... that would be a good idea if we could find a set that accepts cabinet fronts. I agree that it would be appealing, but so far I have not found any of that type that are seperates.

They exist, but now we're starting to get into the multiple-thousand dollar range, like SubZero (~$8000) or GE Monogram (~$7000). If you can live with white ($1350) or stainless steel ($2000) fronts, then you may want to go with the Whirlpool set (fridge linked above, here's the freezer).

[JAZ]

I think its a nice touch that the computer in the picture is on the Daily Gullet.  Good work.  And good luck.

It's my homepage. Isn't it everybody's?

Actually, I go straight to the forum page, then backtrack to check the Daily Gullet.

For the oven, you might consider a model that has convection baking as an option. Our store kitchen used to have two Dacor ovens, one of which had that option, and it was great -- I loved the convection, but if I was used to baking something without convection, I could just use the regular setting and not have to mess around with recalculating cooking times.

[fifi]

I am going to weigh in on the freezer at the bottom. I spent considerable time in a showroom "acting out" how I use a fridge. I will have a chest freezer for most storage but it is in the utility room downstairs, otherwise the fridge only would have been a consideration. Like someone else said, the concept of not having to grovel on the floor to get into the crisper drawers sounds like heaven. The fridge freezer is for snack stuff, chile powders, corn meals, that sort of thing. I am getting the GE Monogram because I like the lay-out of the fridge and the service is really good here.

Which brings me to the icemaker... Check out this puppy! I have several friends that have them and they are in love. 50 pounds per day of those crystal clear little cubes. You can also get them so that you can install your front to match the cabinets. A couple of folks had to call service out because it wasn't installed properly, leveling and such is important the get the ice sheet to slide to the cutter wires properly, but the service was quick and efficient.

[Mayhaw Man]

I have tons of room now and am thinking about a seperate freezer and refrigerator. My wife thinks ... that would be a good idea if we could find a set that accepts cabinet fronts. I agree that it would be appealing, but so far I have not found any of that type that are seperates.

They exist, but now we're starting to get into the multiple-thousand dollar range, like SubZero or GE Monogram.

Too much. AGGHHHHHH!

What if I just screwed some boards to the front and called them "the Rustic Line"?

They really would not be that far out of line, price wise, but I am buying a bunch of appliances (fridge gear, oven, ice machine, new dishwasher, and a cooktop of some sort for the island), the flooring is rediculously expensive (even though I am buying it from a friend locally who saws up the stuff from big beams that formely were holding up industrial plants), and I am going to have to do a fair amount of rewiring (some of which I can do, some I can but am not willing).

[enrevanche]

My vote for fridge configuration: freezer-on-the-bottom, as well. Better ergonomics for the refrigerator compartment, which you are going to be using much more often (especially with a free-standing icemaker.)

Sears' "Kenmore" line of refrigerators (mostly OEMed by Whirlpool if I recall correctly) offers excellent value for money.

Brooks, I think you are right on target about not spending a ton of money on kitchen appliances. The one area where I would urge you to spend a little extra is on your dishwasher. The quiet ones tend to be more expensive, but having a dishwasher that whispers is worth good money in my book.

BTW, if you have the space, one of those countertop convection ovens is a great idea. I use a gas oven for routine baking and roasting and have never really found it to be a problem, but having cooked with a friend's convection oven I am mightily intrigued by this technology.

[Rachel Perlow]

Too much. AGGHHHHHH!

And you don't know the half of it, I've done some more research and edited my post above, but we're talking $7000-8000 for a high end all fridge all freezer combo. Not to mention, you're taking up wall space that could be used for an electric convection wall oven, and save the money and put it into a high end dishwasher. Instead of being 4x the cost of a regular dishwasher, they're only like 2x the cost, so are a better value. I love my dishwasher, a Miele with a third silverware drawer at the very top.

[Jason Perlow]

Sears' "Kenmore" line of refrigerators (mostly OEMed by Whirlpool if I recall correctly) offers excellent value for money.

Kitchenaid also OEMs it as well.