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Smoking a Beef Loin


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#1 NulloModo

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 02:50 PM

Hi,

My father purchased a boneless beef loin at costco today, and he wants me to figure out how to use his smoker (a barrel with side box type) to smoke it on Monday.

I have read the eGCI on smoking, but it talks about brisket, not an entire beef loin. This will be my first attempt at smoking, what will I need? What should I do with the beef before I smoke it, marinade, something else? Any info from the experienced smokers out there would be much appreciated.
He don't mix meat and dairy,
He don't eat humble pie,
So sing a miserere
And hang the bastard high!

- Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche from Candide

#2 Jason Perlow

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 02:52 PM

Please don't do that to a beef loin. Plate cut of beef brisket, yes. Pork shoulder or Ribs, yes.

Beef Loin? I think you may have to do some time if you do that.
Jason Perlow
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#3 Jinmyo

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 02:54 PM

Ah! No! Please don't!
"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

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#4 NulloModo

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 03:01 PM

Oh, so I should not smoke this? Would it be better to grill it then?

The cut has lots of great marbleing, and a really nice layer of thick fat on one side, which is what made us think it would be good to smoke (the original goal was to pick up some pork spare ribs to smoke, but this caught our idea). So, if smoking would not produce the best results, what would be the best way to prepare this cut?
He don't mix meat and dairy,
He don't eat humble pie,
So sing a miserere
And hang the bastard high!

- Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche from Candide

#5 Jason Perlow

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 03:04 PM

Oh, so I should not smoke this?  Would it be better to grill it then? 

The cut has lots of great marbleing, and a really nice layer of thick fat on one side, which is what made us think it would be good to smoke (the original goal was to pick up some pork spare ribs to smoke, but this caught our idea).  So, if smoking would not produce the best results, what would be the best way to prepare this cut?

Hell yes you want to grill it, and you want to eat it medium rare.

Beef Loin just doesn't have the right texture and toughness for long cooking and smoking. You'll destroy it after several hours in that smoker. You want tougher, more fibrous cuts of meat so that it has room to tenderize with all the interlaced fat so it doesnt dry out and stays moist.

Sausages is another thing you can smoke, but make sure you have plenty of fat content in the meat mix.
Jason Perlow
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#6 NulloModo

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 03:09 PM

Hmm, so this beef loin, is like the steaks before they are cut?

I guess I can see why smoking would be a bad idea. We looked at the briskets, but they had already trimmed all of the fat from them, so we figured those would be no good to smoke.

So since I seem to want to cook this like a steak, any steak rub type deal would be a good way to prepare this?
He don't mix meat and dairy,
He don't eat humble pie,
So sing a miserere
And hang the bastard high!

- Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche from Candide

#7 Jinmyo

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 03:12 PM

Ah! No! No steak rub!

Just salt and pepper, perhaps garlic.
"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

#8 Jason Perlow

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 03:12 PM

Hmm, so this beef loin, is like the steaks before they are cut? 

I guess I can see why smoking would be a bad idea.  We looked at the briskets, but they had already trimmed all of the fat from them, so we figured those would be no good to smoke. 

So since I seem to want to cook this like a steak, any steak rub type deal would be a good way to prepare this?

I assume this is a primal cut of beef tenderloin, right? with the filet mignon, the tip and the chateaubriand? Its a long thing about the size of a long french bread loaf? In Cryovac?
Jason Perlow
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#9 NulloModo

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 03:18 PM

It may be, but I think it might be the other side (I wish I had it with me, but I let my father take it back to his place). It was marked 'Beef Loin' and not 'Beef Tenderloin' and is quite a bit thicker than what one would expect a filet to be.

It is about as long as a long loaf of french bread, but quite a bit thicker. It is in a cryovac.

With regards to the rub, I didn't mean anything boxed and too fancy, but just a standard kosher salt, black pepper, dash of cardamom, mustard, and cayenne type deal, which I have used on sirloin from time to time, and as long as it is kept in small enough amounts, I feel compares favorably to just salt and pepper. Although, there is certainly something to be said for preserving the purity of the beef taste as well...

Since this is so well marbled, and apparently not a tough cut as we felt it might have been originally, I suppose it won't need any marinade. I'll have to call him up before he soaks it in Dale's all night...

Edited by NulloModo, 03 July 2004 - 03:18 PM.

He don't mix meat and dairy,
He don't eat humble pie,
So sing a miserere
And hang the bastard high!

- Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche from Candide

#10 Jason Perlow

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 03:23 PM

It may be, but I think it might be the other side (I wish I had it with me, but I let my father take it back to his place).  It was marked 'Beef Loin' and not 'Beef Tenderloin' and is quite a bit thicker than what one would expect a filet to be.

It is about as long as a long loaf of french bread, but quite a bit thicker.  It is in a cryovac.

Yeah, that sounds like both sides, not just the tenderloin. In any case, you should NOT smoke this. In fact, I might even say that you should simply sear this on the grill at high heat, and then finish off at a much lower tempature to bring the whole thing to medium rare. That, or cut it into steaks and grill individually. Let it rest for like 6-8 minutes before cutting into it.

Don't use a rub. Kosher salt, garlic (mashed into some olive oil and spread along the top of the loin) and coarsely ground pepper. Thats it. If you do decide to brine this, which is probably not necessary, make it a simple one.
Jason Perlow
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#11 NulloModo

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 03:27 PM

Hmm, OK, thanks for the advice. So we basically purchased a bunch of steaks all stuck together it sounds like. Not really what we intended, but it should still be some good eating.

I know my uncle used to do this wonderful preparation of prime rib, where he would take the prime rib roast, put it into a bullet smoker looking thing, and however long after it would come out with a nice char on the outside, but medium rare and juicy on the inside, but it still had a great smokey flavor. If I could somehow reproduce that on this piece of meat I would be thrilled.

Do you think that if while searing it, or perhaps while letting it come up to medium rare after searing, if I tossed some hickory logs into the sidebox that that smokiness would have enough time to infuse into the meat?
He don't mix meat and dairy,
He don't eat humble pie,
So sing a miserere
And hang the bastard high!

- Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche from Candide

#12 Jason Perlow

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 03:31 PM

You DID buy a whole bunch of steaks stuck together.

You will not be able to reproduce the results of smoking a whole prime rib (which can be done) with this cut of meat.

If you want some smokey flavor you should get some hickory or mesquite chips, wet them in some water, let them soak for an hour or two (overnight even better) and put them in the firebox or in an aluminum tin directly above one of the burners, and don't put the meat on until several minutes later when you start to see the wood chips smoke. But I really think hickory or mesquite will ruin the natural flavor of this cut, which is subtle to begin with. The flavor isn't as beefy as some of the other parts of the animal.
Jason Perlow
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#13 NulloModo

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 03:36 PM

Gotcha. Sounds like I will just go with a nice simple preparation then, thanks for the info, and for saving me from potentially ruining a good piece of meat.
He don't mix meat and dairy,
He don't eat humble pie,
So sing a miserere
And hang the bastard high!

- Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche from Candide

#14 sashimi

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 10:56 PM

Ah, eGullet intervention at it's finest. Y'all did a wonderful job of saving the poor loin.

Please let us know the results, Nullo!

#15 wesza

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 12:32 AM

"BETTER LATE THEN NEVER"

I checked at "Costco" today and the only "Beef Loin" that they sell as a whole piece in Cryovac is the Boneless Beef Loin more popularly known as the "Strip Loin" that is then generally portioned into New York Steaks or Strip Loin Steaks.

I'm not sure about the rest of the States but it's available in some Seattle Supermarkets as Roast or Smoked Beef Loin. It generally packaged this may cooked to Medium Rare and sold Sliced by the pound for Sandwiches. It more expensive then the Top Round Roasts and has most of the Fat Cover trimmed off from the Roasts.

It can be prepared by slow smoking with a probe inserted and Smoked to a Internal Temperature of 125/130 degrees, then after being allowed to stand and set the Roast the temperature will rise as much as 10 degrees, after which it can be sliced and served. I recommend scoring the fat cover before Smoking and having a water basin underneath to catch the fat and juices while keeping the Beef moist. This can be defatted and used like Au Jus after smoking. Any type of Marinating or Seasoning your family enjoys may be Incorporated into the Beef. This Smoking may take longer then your prepared, however there is a Short Cut that may be almost as effective.

The Short Cut utilizes a combination of Oven Roasting and them Finishing the Roast off for effect and extra flavor in the pre-heated smoker.

Dress the Whole Piece as you would if starting the cooking in the smoker. Place the Meat into a Roasting Pan, elevated on a raised Base either a Trivet or a Open Metal Grilling Base. This will allow you to place a liquid base either of Water, Wine, Beef Stock or Chicken Broth, combined with Sliced Onions and Some Shredded Carrots and Diced Celery and Chopped Parsley or any other seasonings you prefer. This Bath on the Bottom of the Beef will keep it moist, prevent over shrinking or drying out and provide you after defatting and straining with a delicious Au Jus Style Dipping Sauce.

Put the Meat in the Pan into a Cold Oven Fat Cover on the top. Turn oven on to Broil and allow the Fat Cover to become Seared Off and Browned. Next turn the Roast Over and allow the Bottom to also Sear and Turn Brown.

After the Bottom Has Browned, turn it over and lower the oven Temperature to 225 Degrees. Place Meat Probe or Thermometer into the Center of the Loin and allow to Cook until the Temperature rises to about 115/120 Degrees. It okay to occasionally turn the Roast over for appearance, but it not really necessary when cooking at this low temperature.

It will probably take about 2 1/2 to 3 hours to bring the Roast to this temperature depending on your oven. It can be allowed to rest and sit, catching all the juices and adding them to the Au Jus for as long as 1 1/2 hours. if longer then it must be refrigerated.

To finish the Roast and give it a Smoked Taste and Surface Flavor place the Whole Piece into the Pre-Heated Smoker, cover it with whatever type of surface coating you prefer and it should be ready to eat after being placed into the smoker in 45/60 minutes after the temperature has raised about 10 degrees.

After removing the Finished Roast allow it to stand for at least 15 minutes before starting to slice it from end to end, just like you were cutting very thin steaks. [This is called "English Cut"] and pour some of the Au Jus over each serving.

"Horseradish Cream Sauce", "English Mustard"or Hot Barbecue Sauce "should be provided for those who enjoy them with the Beef or even a "Hot Salsa".

Enjoy and report back how it came out whatever method you used.

I feel sorry for all the other eGulleters who haven't had the pleasure of enjoying a Whole Roasted or Smoked Loin especially one cooked rare with the juices dripping out. It actually tastes better then Prime Rib, is leaner in appearance, but just as tender due to the Marbling, especially with slow cooking. It makes a awesome Roast Beef Sandwich prepared this way that I enjoy as much as a Steak.

Irwin
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#16 fiftydollars

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 01:10 AM

For some reason I thought NulloModo was thinking about smoking a whole beef tenderloin...

I really think that would be a bad idea... However, the strip loin is a whole different story. I've never tried it, but it sounds like it could be pretty good if you don't overcook (oversmoke?) it.

I regularly smoke tri-tip and although it is quite lean, it definitely benefits from low, moist, smokey cooking. In a 200 degree smoker it can take up to four hours to get to around 135. The results are great.

I suspect that a whole untrimmed bone-in loin would not only withstand smoking, but would turn out to be damned good.

Edited by fiftydollars, 04 July 2004 - 01:20 AM.


#17 col klink

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 11:17 AM

I *love* smoking large cuts of beef. The larger the better (within reason, I don't have the room for 1/2 a cow or even a 1/4 cow :sad:). Contrary to what's been said here, wesza not withstanding, smoking can be great for a beef loin. As long as you can hold a low temp in the smoker and duly rotate your roast you can have an amazing piece of beef. But it's going to take a good deal of work with the smoker in your possesion.

I'm guessing that your roast is around 6 lbs or larger in which case the smoker is the best thing for it. Ideally the largest width will be at least 4" or 5". However if it's smaller, it might not be worth the effort. I mention a lot of work because if you're using hardwood logs to fuel the fire there is a temperature differential throughout the barrel and the potential for a flare-up is pretty high -- not so much with charchoal in the fire box. Keep the fire as low as possible for the longest period of time -- this gives you a smokier end product. And rotate the roast every 15 minutes so one side is not more cooked than another. This is more important with a roast that is coming off at a particular temperature (125 F) than something like a pork shoulder roast which is ideally smoked until it falls apart and can't help but not be really smokey.

To prep I'd just rub with kosher salt (table salt is really fine grained and I always end up adding too much salt, though with a large roast like this it isn't so much an issue) and pepper. Though I do like the idea of crushing garlic and mixing it with olive oil for the rub.

Wesza says to form a crust at a high temp then let it slowly cook in the oven and finish in a smoker. I don't recomend this if you want a smokey flavor. If you want a grilled flavor it's fine to finish on the grill but you're not going to get a smokey roast this way. By searing the exterior of the roast you're sealing the interior of the roast from getting any smoke flavor. The trick is to sear right before serving. If the roast reaches 125 F before you're ready to sit down, cover with tin foil and let rest. 20 minutes before you're ready to eat, have your smoker or grill really hot and sear on all sides but not blackened -- it shouldn't take too long, less than 5 minutes. Otherwise you risk overcooking the interior.

With a large roast like this you can still please the whole crowd -- both the folk who love their beef blood rare as well as the well-done meat crime advocates. Save the middle for the lovers and the ends to the haters.

With long roasts like a loin, it's a heck of a lot easier to use a standard weber. You won't get as smokey as with a hardwood fire but you don't have worry nearly as much. For cutting your teeth on smoking or with a $150 prime rib roast that you don't want to leave to chance the Weber is fantastic. Last October MatthewB, Guajolote and I smoked a magnificent prime rib roast on a Weber and it was some of the best beef I've ever had.

The technique is to place smaller fires on either side of the kettle for even cooking with the roast in the middle thuswise:
Posted Image

Granted later on one of the fires went out but everything worked fine, I just put the roast as far away from the fire as possible:
Posted Image

The Weber is easier to use in this instance because the roast is so long instead of more of a blimp shape. The roast in the pictures wouldn't be able to fit on my smoker unless it was parallel with the barrel meaning one end of the roast would very close to the fire and thus very susceptible to overcooking without a lot of babysitting.

Here's a sirloin roast I've smoked (blob like compared to rib roast, the two in front).
Posted Image

And here's a cross section of the sirloin (for reference, that's a 10" slicer in front of it):
Posted Image

So remember, your temp probe is your best friend in a roast like this. Turn often, poke and prod the roast to make sure that each side is being evenly cooked and pull at 125. Sear to finish and give yourself 15 to 20 minutes of resting before carving.

#18 Jason Perlow

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 11:53 AM

Interesting. Thanks Klink and Irwin for some educational insight into this cut of meat. Clearly, theres a big difference between "Strip Loin of Beef" and "Tenderloin" and what you can do with them. A little explanation of the terminology goes a long way.
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#19 NulloModo

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 11:56 AM

Wow, thank you for the info Col.

My father owns a standard Weber kettle grill in addition to the smoker (at least I think it is a Weber, it is that basic style). So you would recommend smoking it on that instead?

I always hear that I should probe often, but as I probe, aren't I making more and more holes in the meat, which let more and more of the juices leak out? Should I try to make only one hole, and keep the probe inside of the meat as I turn it around and around? I would also assume that I should probe the center of the roast, as that will take the longest to come to temperature?

Do you recommend scoring the fat for smoking such a loin?
He don't mix meat and dairy,
He don't eat humble pie,
So sing a miserere
And hang the bastard high!

- Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche from Candide

#20 Mayhaw Man

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 12:02 PM

Col. Klink-

Seer to finish? I've never done this. No seering on the front end (I suppose that this would prevent some of the smoky deliciousness getting through).

So.....you just take the rested meat and throw it on a hot grill turning pretty much constantly? Correct?

I'll have to give this a try as I have one of those things (from Sam's Club) in the freezer.
Brooks Hamaker, aka "Mayhaw Man"

There's a train everyday, leaving either way...

#21 col klink

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 01:27 PM

Wow, thank you for the info Col. 

My father owns a standard Weber kettle grill in addition to the smoker (at least I think it is a Weber, it is that basic style).  So you would recommend smoking it on that instead?

I always hear that I should probe often, but as I probe, aren't I making more and more holes in the meat, which let more and more of the juices leak out?  Should I try to make only one hole, and keep the probe inside of the meat as I turn it around and around?  I would also assume that I should probe the center of the roast, as that will take the longest to come to temperature?

Do you recommend scoring the fat for smoking such a loin?

NulloModo, the choice of the grill versus the smoker depends on two things. Your experience and your cut of beef. Is your cut more like the prime rib in the pics or the sirloin roasts?

If feel confident in your smoking ability on the smoker (and don't mind babysitting the smoker -- I don't unless it's raining) and your roast is more like the sirloins, I'd use the smoker. Otherwise the grill.

As to probing, you don't have to probe often because you can leave the probe in roast. But you should *check* the temp often. And yes, put the probe in the center of the meat not touching any bones. However, on large roasts you may want to check the outside portions every once and a while.

With hot smoking at 225 F and lower, you're cooking at a lower temperature than typical roasting in an oven so you don't have to worry so much about piercing the meat and having all of the juices running out the side so don't be afraid of overpuncturing.

edit: You can score the fat if you'd like because the end appearance would be better (the fat will shrink more than the muscle) but it isn't necessary. It's not like it's duck breast where the goal is to render the fat for flavor and as well as there's an OVERABUNDANCE of beautiful, magnificent holy fat. If you don't render the fat under the skin the skin will be very tough. This isn't the case with the loin roasts I've seen.

#22 wesza

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 01:40 PM

My recommendation was based upon achieving a Finished Roast with a time constraint. Utilizing a combination of methodology provides a finished piece of Beef with less time then the ideal method of Slow Smoking.

Klink is right about the permutation of Smoke providing a much more decadent finish for the Beef, the low heat, with moist smoke break down the collagen, while still keeping much of the moisture, color and flavor contained. No one is better at finessing any Cut of Meat or Poultry then a experienced Smoke Master like Col Klink, in Seattle peoples eyes tear just talking about the elevation of a simple Sausages he had carefully smoked during the good old days. I'm sorry that I missed meeting him and his wife during his recent Seattle visit.

Without curing it very unusual to have Smoke penetrate significantly more then about 1/2 inch deep into the surface of the Beef if being finished Rare/Medium. With a Strip Loin the Whole Loin will be mostly evenly finished except for less then 1 inch from both ends of the piece, especially since there is pretty much of a even Fat Cover and Thickness of the Rectangular Piece.

I hope theres some left over that can be refrigerated overnight, then sliced thin for awesome cold Beef Sandwiches, where every bite will be juicy fragrant and at least to me almost mind boggling. Every time I eat a Cold Sliced Smoke Beef Sandwich is very special. I just use the Beef, without any condiments and savor the natural taste.

Whatever you do, have a wonderfull 4th of July, i'm glad you've gotten the information soon enough to make this years holiday special for your guests.

Irwin :rolleyes:
I don't say that I do. But don't let it get around that I don't.

#23 col klink

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 01:46 PM

Col. Klink-

Seer to finish? I've never done this. No seering on the front end (I suppose that this would prevent some of the smoky deliciousness getting through).

So.....you just take the rested meat and throw it on a hot grill turning pretty much constantly? Correct?

I'll have to give this a try as I have one of those things (from Sam's Club) in the freezer.

Yup, sear to finish. It adds a nice touch. However, it's not that simple to do in an offset smoker unless you also grill with it and have an easy supply of charcoal on hand and more importantly -- a chimney. That way you can start the coals outside of the smoker and keep the smoker temp low until you need the heat.

It's not something I ordinarily do unless I'm on cooking on a Weber and there's easy access to below the grill. I've never done it with my smoker because there are four seperate grates and the times where I'm smoking large roasts that could use the grilling it would be too much of a headache (as opposed to spending hours around the smoker tending the fire, but then I'm not doing any lifting that could endanger the meat).

#24 jayt90

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 08:10 AM

"BETTER LATE THEN NEVER"

I checked at "Costco" today and the only "Beef Loin" that they sell as a whole piece in Cryovac is the Boneless Beef Loin more popularly known as the "Strip Loin" that is then generally portioned into New York Steaks or Strip Loin Steaks.

My local Costco (in Ontario) has a variety of Cryovac packs: beef Tenderloin, pork tenderloin, beef strip loin, round, sirloin tip, and top sirloin. None of this can come from the U.S. at present, so each market is different.

#25 NulloModo

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 08:14 AM

Update on this:

Smoked the loin along with a pork butt, both turned out wonderful.

I also made a reduction from the pan drippings of the loin, combined with a bit of chardonnay (eh, no red wine around, it seemed to work), and some thyme. The sauce didn't really fit with the smoked meat, but it was darn tasty on other things ;).
He don't mix meat and dairy,
He don't eat humble pie,
So sing a miserere
And hang the bastard high!

- Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche from Candide

#26 Bicycle Lee

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 11:22 AM

for the smoker....get some decent wood...I like apple, crab apple, fig, and cherry...maybe chestnut...depends on the meat...
make the wood into chips if it is not already.
soak in water for a couple of minutes (not too long)
build a small fire of charcoal in the side box....
make a small "boat" out of tin foil that will hold your wood chips...basically you want it to serve as a base to hold it in and also to have a hinged lid that traps ash and soot.
after the charcoal has reached its hottest, knock the coals over, and rest your boat of wet wood chips on top....seal and wait...

Edited by Bicycle Lee, 07 July 2004 - 11:26 AM.

"Make me some mignardises, &*%$@!" -Mateo

#27 snowangel

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 09:48 AM

Bump!

Marlene and I are going to be smoking prime rib roasts on Saturday. She'll do an 8 pounder, me a 5 pounder (both boneless).

This was really prompted because I got an unbelievable deal on the one I purchased, and it's been a few weeks since I smoked anything.

Any other bits of advice?

And, any suggestions for sides?
Susan Fahning aka "snowangel"

#28 Marlene

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 06:18 AM

Yesterday my husband picked up a bunch of different types of wood chunks at a terrific little BBQ place up near his office (of course he spied a Big Green Egg there and now wants one of those, but that's a different story). :biggrin: We've now got apple, hickory, pecan and mesquite. Which wood should we use for the prime rib?
And this time we've got Kingsford briquettes instead of lump charcoal.

Susan for sides, I'm thinking roasted potatoes and yorkies and maybe a salad. Should I do a port wine reduction for the meat?
Marlene
cookskorner

Practice. Do it over. Get it right.
Mostly, I want people to be as happy eating my food as I am cooking it.

#29 snowangel

snowangel
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  • Location:Twin Cities, MN

Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:10 AM

Marlene, I'm using hickory (because that's what I have).

Sides? I'm thinking potato salad (to make Heidi happy) and something green.

Yes, to port wine reduction. I'm thinking regular gravy (to keep Peter happy), but maybe I don't need any sauce if we're having potato salad. ????
Susan Fahning aka "snowangel"

#30 Marlene

Marlene
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  • Location:Alberta, Canada

Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:15 AM

I could make gravy except I really hate making it without drippings. It just doesn't seem to be the same. But then again, what are potatoes without gravy?
Marlene
cookskorner

Practice. Do it over. Get it right.
Mostly, I want people to be as happy eating my food as I am cooking it.