8 replies to this topic

[Lesley C]

Hi James,
Thanks for all the great answers so far.

There was a topic on the pastry and baking board a while back entitled:
Why are baguettes so much better in France? Ingredients? Water? Skill?
See here http://forums.egulle...showtopic=40608

After four pages of debate, I think we got nowhere. That’s when I thought of inviting you to egullet to clear things up. As the original poster did not repost this great question, I thought I would. Here it is:

"I know we have great artisanal bakers here in the States. Every big city in the US has a slew of them. But every time I go to France, whether in Paris, Provence or Burgundy, the baguettes taste so much better. Crispier crust, sweeter, not as hard to chew, and also tend to taste good much longer. It doesn't matter where I pick it up-a train station, a patiserrie, a deli. or a restaurant-they all taste better than Stateside.

So what gives?

Alex Bernardo"

And then came a flood of answers such as :

From jackal 10:

Two reasons:
a) The flour. French flour is much softer than US bread flours

b) Baguettes are designed to be eaten within a short time of baking. Local artisanal boulangeries bake small batches all day, and people buy and eat them at the next meal, if not sooner. They stale within a few hours. This does not fit with the US food distribution industry or consumption pattern. The compromises needed to make a product last mean its a different loaf. Even supermarkets with in-store bakeries have to make compromises (flour improvers, lower hydration, part-baked frozen etc) to make a loaf that can be baked with the equipment or labour available, that achieves the necessary economic economy of scale, and that lasts until the customer eats it.

John Whiting:

Unless, of course, it's pain levain (like Poilane's) which is good for at least a week.

The bagette must be eaten on the same day because it is a compromise recipe invented in the 1920s as a response to labor legislation that protected bakers from having to go to work before a certain hour in the morning. Everyone knows that, the longer it takes bread to rise, and the less artificially added yeast, the better it will be. Consumers in France are gradually rediscovering this.

The bagette is a halfway house between Wonderbread/Mother's Pride and natural rising.

Fat Guy:

I'm with Whiting: what's so great about French baguettes? I think they suck. If I'm looking for basic white bread in New York, I have ton of better choices at anyplace that sells Eli's or Amy's bread, without even getting into the better artisanal bakeries. I have no use for baguettes and to me, saying baguettes in France are better than baguettes in New York is about as relevant and meaningful as saying McDonald's in the US is better than McDonald's in Europe. The only baguettes I like are the "l'ancien" sourdough variety, which are as good at Pain Quotidien in New York as they are at Pain Quotidien in Europe.

And

Sourdough is the pinnacle of bread baking. Any serious baker will tell you that breads made with commercial laboratory-grown yeast are inferior. And to disagree with Whiting's characterization just a bit, I don't see the baguette as halfway between Wonder Bread and sourdough. I see it as Wonder Bread's better-dressed, slightly more presentable sibling.

And

Not that I've been everywhere in the world, but of the places I've been it's not even close: the best bread is in Northern California. They have a bread culture out there that's truly remarkable. The sheer quantity and variety of good bread in that region makes it hard to eat anything else.

And

I'd go farther, Mabelline: the joke is on France. While Americans have been busy learning about good bread, the French have been equally busy forgetting about it.

Artisanbaker:

i can't remember all the points i'd like to make but here goes:

why is the bread better in france?
that's subjective, isn't it? In mexico they like sugar in their bread. if they taste a loaf from france, they might not think it's "good." *we must respect each others tastes and encourage diversity.*

personally, i've yet to have a baguette in america that i've thought is as good as some french ones. you have to look hard in france, but i would be willing to supply some references of bakeries that i think make spectacular baguettes. julien in paris makes one of the best baguettes i've ever had.

part of the reason the baguette is so good is simply the mastery of fabrication/fermentation, the wheat variety and earth it's grown on, the milling, the oven used.

regarding the competition: these are not based on just taste alone; there are MANY factors that play in.

we in america can make wonderful, even spectacular baguettes in our own right. i've made some great ones and my colleagues have as well. BUT, i've yet to have a baguette in america as good as the one at julien that spring morning.



ps. if you ask the french why their baguettes are better they might say that it's because the flour is not pasteurised! hehehe

Can you please add your two cents.
Thanks

[James MacGuire]

Finally, something contentious!

First, a bit of history to put things into perspective ( Hubert, stp, au secours!):

The baguette could not exist before certain conditions were in place, and this happened after the 1st world war-

- Stronger flours

- Widespread use of mixing machines

- Steam-injected ovens

- and above all, the general use of baker's yeast (only) to ferment the dough


Although beer yeast ( to become baker's yeast) had been known for a very long time in France, it's general use began gingerly as a way of pushing the classic levain doughs along. Before yeast-only breads appeared, there was a long period during which levain de pate and other mixtures were used. Raymond Calvel remebers making pure levain loaves in summer and levain pushed with a bit of yeast in the winter as he was learning the trade in the Haut Languedoc.
Calvel has also written of seeing Parisian bakers come to his region to demonstrate the use of baker's yeast using the straight dough process ( what little amount of baker's yeast recipes used in France were made by the poolish method, introduced in Paris by bakers from Vienna c 1825 ), and he remembers being fascinated, and went to Paris first to learn the trade, but then stayed on to teach at the Ecole Nationale de Meunerie (In Paris witnessed not only the introduction of the baguette, but also the Parisian croissant . viennese croissants were more of a rich croissant-shaped roll. Parisians had the idea of rolling the butter in as for puff pastry to make them flaky).
The French had been used to large sourdough loaves which kept for many days, and frugal housewives would never serve on the day they were made because people would eat too much. Better flours, kneading machines , steam in the oven, and above all, bakers yeast permitted the production of lighter, crispier loaves. Consumers were fascinated by the crackly-crispy crust, and the overall delicacy of the result. longer,skinnier loaves - i.e. the baguette- began to be made to satisfy the demand for a greater proportion of crust. This new category of bread was called "pain de fantaisie" and at first was a purely Parisian phenomenon: the loaves were more delicate, more expensive, and perfect for conspicuous consumers because they had to be eaten the same day.
Professor Calvel is quite clear that the golden age of this French bread ( the French have had good bread for a long time, but Voltaire never trapsed around wearing a beret with a baguette under his arm...) was between the two world wars. Kneading was done by machine, but at slow speed ( therefore sufficient, but not excessive), and the fermentation of the dough went on for three or four hours ( for a total production time of 7 or 8 hours). In this way, the resullts were indeed light and delicate but had character. A good baguette should be very yellow on the inside ( more about this soon), with large to very large holes, and (slowly fermented straight dough baguettes especially) allow the wheatty, nutty nuances of the flour to come shining through.
Bakers have long endeavored to produce sourdough baguettes, but in my experience sourdough loaves do not spring well in long skinny shapes, and the crust softens and becomes rubbery. Above all, the assertive sourdough flavors mask the delicate wheatty flavors, and these days, after many years of working with poolish, I wonder if the baguette en direct might not be the best way to go.
Calvel ( who is still around at 90) also witnessed the disaster of the modern baguette at the end of the 50's early 60's. One morning a baker named Abert had his kneading machine break down, and being a resourceful guy, he rolled-uo his sleeves and fixed it. When he turned it on, however, he realised that he had made a mistake, for it was working at double the speed. He made bread anyway, and to his amazement, the loaves were as light as manna (sp?) and the crumb was almost as white as snow. Ecco! the bad baguette. People were fascinated, and the new method conquered France, becoming generalised within a few years. The new baguette was also easier for bakers to produce, and to make things worse, machines were invented to divide and shape the dough to increase production, but which required atypically stiff, unfermented doughs.
Unlike most food scientists, Calvel has always though of the taste of things, and he reacted against this new petrissage intensifie. Basically, the Calvel school finds two things critical for baguettes ( and for bread in general):

-------- Unbleached flours contain carotenoid pigments, which give a nutty, wheatty flavor to the loaf. Too much high speed mixing destroys them, and when they're gone, they're gone. Too much mixing also changes the texture of the crumb, and the extra formation of the gluten strands permits shortening the fermentation of the dough.

---------- Long, cool fermentations lead to the formation of fatty organic acids which give flavor, texture, and keeping qualities to the finished loaf. Overmixing, stronger flours, and oxydising additives permit the drastic shortening of fermentation times.

Put most simply, it is much better to knead little and ferment a lot than knead a lot and ferment little. Poolishes and other preferments permit the rejuggling of the fermentation schedule and this helps things, but we can't forget in these discussions that here, but especially in France, the economic pressures of running a bakery are daunting ( flour is cheap, but even 1,500 baguettes a day don't bring in that much cash). Add to this the long, strangr hours, the difficulty of finding emoloyees and the right flour, and instead of lamenting the sorry state of things or on the other hand start waving flags, we should rejoice every time we find a good baguette, be it here or in France.

In my effort to answer a question about U.S. recipes with European flours, I tried to delve into the difference between the wheats and the milling practices. The more I look into it, the more I see that certain millers both here ond in France produce flours which, because of greater care in the overall process and, increasingly, the variety of wheat being milled, are producing results which are remarkably different from -- excuse the expression-- run of the mill. I hope that this tendency to go the extra mile ( mix those metaphores!) continues so that those who dismiss the baguette entirely, or feel that it must be boosted with sourdough or other "improvements" can retain an open mind until they finally taste the real thing, somewhere, sometime, with some luck.

In recent months I have found a Canadian flour which has assuaged my fear that great baguettes cannot be made with Canadian flours, there certainly exist U.S. flours which fit the bill, and hope one day soon to conduct a controlled experiment/tasting against a French comtrol ( Stephen Kaplan, would you be interested?)

[Lesley C]

Wow, interesting stuff. I hope the people who posted on the initial thread have a good look at your answer.
So your conclusion is, a good baguette is a good baguette no matter where we find it -- and chances are that good baguette is not made with sourdough, correct? (Hmm considering your description of the ideal baguette, I'm wondering if any Montreal baguettes get your thumbs up?)
Now what about the Flute Gana, the baguette by Ganachaud that we now find all over France? If I remember correctly, the "mie" is rather yellow and there are large holes in the centre. Have you tasted the Flute Gana? Wouldn't this be considered a top flight French baguette?
Also regarding the baguette --and, come to think of it, loaves of pain de campagne as well -- we sometimes see a blistered crust, with tiny bubbles having formed on the surface. I believe certain bakers (including, I think, Nancy Silverton) see this as desirable, yet I have also heard this is a mistake. What's your take on the blistered crust?

[Pan]

Thanks for your interesting answer, Mr. MacGuire.

Followup question:

How does high-speed mixing destroy carotenoid pigments?

[docsconz]

Fascinating. I had no idea that baguettes and croissants are such recent inventions. Thanks.

[James MacGuire]

Thank you, Lesley for the follow- up query.

Somehow, into the question of baguettes over the years, the possibility of levain ( sourdough) has crept in. As I tried to point-out earlier, baguettes began as a yeast-raised loaf, straight-dough ( rather than poolish,etc).

Over the years, both as a reaction to bad baguettes, and also because basic white bread was subject to government price controls which severely limited better bakers' chances of getting ahead, alternative "boutique" baguettes were created, some much more successful ( and at times delicious...) than others.

Calvel, who was around during the transition from levain to yeast, and who at his age would , it could be assumed, prefer the levain of his youth, is of two minds about this, and so am I. I remain fascinated by this process which begins with spontaneous fermentation, and therefore allows the baker to feel that she ( or he ) has really added something. There is much to be said for baker's yeast, on the other hand.

Croissants and other viennoiseries depend upon yeast, which although it's production is one step removed from the baker, remains a living (and therefore natural ) leavening agent. I would be hard pressed to decide, if I were sent to a desert island, which to choose ( litterally speaking, I guess dried instant yeast would be a judicious choice....) because it would be like choosing between white wine and red wine: can't we have both?.

To continue the wine analogy, those who know and like both admit that full-flavoured, ripe new world wines are more assertive and more attractive. Old world wines are more demanding of their fans because they are more austere, more discreet , and in that sense, more demanding ( Before everyone gets pissed-off, let me assure you that I, too, love both...).

In terms of classic baguettes, then, let me say ( at great risk of making enemies of certain esteemed readers ) that sourdough, huge percentages of poolish, and other current tendencies might simply be a reaction to the all-to frequently-encountered tasteless baguette. It is easy to think of ways to make things more flavorful- to give them punch- but I feel that it is probable that the baguette's (alas justifiable) reputation for insipidness is so because too few people have encountered the genuine article, which should be an expression of the nutty, wheatiness of that " damned elusive" ideal flour, whose discreet but nonetheless assertive flavors are a reminder that at times bakers should step aside and allow them to shine through. The problem is to find such a flour, and then a baker who is willing to do so.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a tag on Lesley's question concering bubbles on the crust of bakes loaves. In the United States, these last are deemed as a good sign. In France, it is merely considered a sure sign that the raw loaves spent time in a refrigerer before being baked ( I strongly suspect that this is the case with a local bakery's " 36 Hour Baguette"


Please keep the questions coming until the end

Cheers,


James

[andiesenji]

In terms of classic baguettes, then, let me say ( at great risk of making enemies of certain esteemed readers ) that sourdough, huge percentages of poolish, and other current tendencies might simply be a reaction to the all-to frequently-encountered tasteless baguette. It is easy to think of ways to make things more flavorful- to give them punch- but I feel that it is probable that the baguette's (alas justifiable) reputation for insipidness is so because too few people have encountered the genuine article, which should be an expression of the nutty, wheatiness of that " damned elusive" ideal flour, whose discreet but nonetheless assertive flavors are a reminder that at times bakers should step aside and allow them to shine through. The problem is to find such a flour, and then a baker who is willing to do so.
James

Flours available to the home baker and to commercial bakeries are not what they used to be. Companies keep changing them to squeeze out that little extra percentage of profit.

I began milling my own grains several years ago, but not everyone can justify spending the money, or has the room for all these extra appliances. One would think, with the burgeoning popularity of home baking, the flour manufacturers would make premium flours available.

When I worked in the family bakery almost 50 years ago, as small as we were, we had 6 types of wheat flour for various applications. The strong flour produced loaves and rolls with wonderful taste, the nuttiness which you mentioned. The crust on the regular bread would shatter while cooling, never became tough. On baguettes, boules and batards the crust would be thicker, crisp and chewy, and always that taste.
When I failed to achieve the taste with locally available flour I tried buying from sources all over the country and had little or no success. Buying an electric mill was my only solution. Finding the grain has also been difficult, however it is possible, but expensive. Not as expensive as importing flour from France but close...

[James MacGuire]

Answer to follow-up about carotenoid pigments:

They're oxydised by the large amounts of air being whipped into the dough. This is only a worry with mixing by machine, and the oxydation is accentuated by the addition, in France, of fava bean flour, which some millers add to flour as a dough " improver", so bakers must be on the lookout.
High speed mixing oxydises mechanically, but in bleached flours it is done chemically. Whatever, when they're gone, they're gone.....

[pss999]

Hi Mr. MacGuire,

It's great to see you here and to read your replies, so thanks for taking the time!

You mention that you found a flour here that you like? Would you care to share the name or mill or...? I've tried lots of the locally available standard and organic flours, with varying levels of success. Always a challenge and an adventure of sorts!

Thanks again,

Paul Schwartz (here in Montreal)