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#61 Hiroyuki

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 11:15 PM

Hm, maybe you guys know more about this subject than I do. I have to confess I have never stopped to think about this before.

In this post, let me explain another aspect of desu and masu--how to emphasize them.
In the description that follows, a long vowel is represented by a vowel followed by a hyphen (-); for example, a- denotes a long 'a' vowel.

In emphasizing, we usually say de-su for desu and ma-su for masu, not desu- or masu-. Thus, we usually say:
いただきまーす Itadakima-su
げんきでーす Genki de-su (I'm fine)
The same goes for sai and sen:
ごめんなさーい Gomen'nasa-i (sorry)
すいませーん Suimase-n (sorry)

Compare:
ごちそうさまでしたー Gochisousamadeshita-
いただきましたー Itadakimashita- (I received)
げんきでしたー Genki deshita- (I was fine)

#62 smallworld

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 07:36 PM

Yesterday as my family was having lunch at Yoshinoya (my first time there in almost 14 years!), the man a couple chairs away (the restuarant is set up as one big sort of s shaped counter) stood and announced "gochisousama" as the way of letting the waiter know he was ready to pay his check. I have never really noticed anyone ever do that before in this kind of restaurant, of course I also don't normally frequent those kind of restaurants....
I didn't notice any of the other customers do it either though and I would probably never use it in that kind of situation, so it really just depends on the person.

I always do that!
So how do you usually ask for your check in this type of place?

they usually give the check with the meal, so I just walk over to the register...

Well, you must eat at far classier places than I do!

A great many fast-food or lower-end type places don't leave the bill at the table- not just Yoshinoya but ramen shops, kaiten-zushi, curry rice shops and the like. Then again, really high-end places don't leave the check at the table either. At either type of place you need to let someone know you're ready to pay, and while "Oaiso/Okanjo onegai shimasu" is fine for the fancy places, it seems a little polite for ramen.
So "Gochisou-sama" seems to work.
I also use gochisou-sama/gochisou-sama deshita to thank the staff or cook if they have been extra-nice or the food was really good.

I'm spending the weekend in Osaka, where I'll be using the Osaka-ben version: "Gochisou-san". That's about all I can speak as far as Osaka-ben goes, but saying this in a restaurant never fails to blow peoples' socks off. Last visit the staff at a rather scary 'hormone-yaki' shop in Shinsekai were so impressed they gave me a free cellphone strap.
Who knows what I'll get this time...
My eGullet foodblog: Spring in Tokyo
My regular blog: Blue Lotus

#63 tanabutler

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Posted 18 July 2004 - 11:46 AM

At a farm dinner last night, we were served smoked black cod, which is also called Japanese butterfish. What do the Japanese call it?

#64 melonpan

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Posted 18 July 2004 - 01:41 PM

regarding まんてん畑 (a bottled drink put out by suntory)

is this pronounced "mantenten"?

thank you!
"Bibimbap shappdy wappdy wap." - Jinmyo

#65 Hiroyuki

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Posted 18 July 2004 - 02:54 PM

regarding  まんてん畑 (a bottled drink put out by suntory)

is this pronounced "mantenten"?

thank you!

Manten batake.
畑 is pronounced hatake (or hata or pata in some cases), meaning field, patch, or plantation, but is pronounced batake when preceded by certain words, as in
茶/麦/苺畑 cha/mugi/ichigo (tea/barley/strawberry) batake.

#66 Hiroyuki

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Posted 18 July 2004 - 05:49 PM

At a farm dinner last night, we were served smoked black cod, which is also called Japanese butterfish. What do the Japanese call it?

Fish names are confusing, but the following site cleared up some of my confusion:
http://www.susanscot...3/feb28-03.html
So, the answer is:
Black cod, or sablefish, are called gin dara (lit. silver cod) in Japanese.
Japanese butterfish, which are NOT black cod, are called ibodai or ebodai. ('Ibo' means 'wart', and some people hate to call them ibodai.)
Another confusion here. Mana gatsuo are also called butterfish:
http://www.coara.or..../managatuo.html

#67 Hiroyuki

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Posted 18 July 2004 - 05:53 PM

4.  A likely story.  Women are changing rapidly.  Another word that women hesitate to use is kuu 食う (to eat).  Women usually use taberu 食べる instead.  My sister has a strong aversion to kuu; whenever I say kuu, she says "Stop it!" 止めて.

I meant 'a probable story'. I didn't know that the expression 'A likely story' has the opposite meaning. :sad: :biggrin:

#68 Pan

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Posted 18 July 2004 - 07:05 PM

It has the opposite meaning only because it's usually used sarcastically (really, ironically). However, that doesn't mean it can't be used literally, and I understood your meaning.

#69 jrufusj

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Posted 19 July 2004 - 12:57 AM

I always do that!
So how do you usually ask for your check in this type of place?

they usually give the check with the meal, so I just walk over to the register...

Well, you must eat at far classier places than I do!

If you eat at the classiest places of all :laugh:, you don't have to worry about any of this...

Just put your money in the ticket machine, grunt out your order, then eat and leave as quickly as possible so you won't get fussed at for lingering and taking up counter space!!

Jim
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Tokyo, Japan

Never teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and frustrates the pig.

#70 nuppe

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 03:23 PM

I guess that I ask to much, and I bump into this forum in a rather stressful phase. I have a book deadline this week and need a couple of capelin(shishamo) and mackerel(saba) recipes. Capelin/smelt is the biggest challenge, but I have received a couple of completely new ones in japanese. I've had them translated, but now I realise that the translation isn't sufficient. So anynone ready for a challenge...
One or two will be enough, capelin recipes don't seem to be common; these are made for the future.

The crisis isn't that severe in the mackerel division, but a few of the recipes linked, seem fun.(like the pizza if it's the japanese type) Maybe someone else thinks the same and will contribute to the spread of this.

I think I will find a way somehow, but I'll just give this a try.
Nuppe



1) Sesame Mackerel
http://www.seafoodfr...?strRecipeId=40
2) Japanese style pizza with Mackerel
http://www.seafoodfr...?strRecipeId=47
3) Mackerel rice rolls
http://www.seafoodfr...?strRecipeId=54
4) Mackerel with carry paste
http://www.seafoodfr...?strRecipeId=43
5) Spicy Mackerel Pasta
http://www.seafoodfr...?strRecipeId=52
6) Sweet and Sour Mackerel
http://www.seafoodfr...?strRecipeId=51
7) Mackerel Fry with Miso and mayonnaise


1) Capein Marine with Vegetables
http://www.seafoodfr...?strRecipeId=59
2) Capelin Marine
http://www.seafoodfr...?strRecipeId=60
3) Capelin Fry
http://www.seafoodfr...?strRecipeId=61

#71 Hiroyuki

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 07:42 PM

You really are asking too much!

Anyway, the following is a quick translation of
1) Capein Marine with Vegetables
http://www.seafoodfr...?strRecipeId=59

Ingredients (four servings)

8 to 10 Norwegian capelins
1/2 onion
1/2 pack aona (green vegetable)
2 sliced radishes
3 tbsp white wine vinegar
1/3 small tbsp (i.e., 5/3 cc) salt
Pinch of pepper
1/2 tbsp sugar
Juice from 1/2 lemon
Lemon slices (cut into slices and then into quarters), as many as you please
6 tbsp salad oil
Adequate amount of flour

How to make:

1) Mix white wine vinegar, salt, sugar, lemon juice, and salad oil in a bowl, and add soup.
2) Slice onion, soak in water, drain.
3) Boil aona (green vetetable), drain, and cut to lengths of 2 to 3 cm.
4) Lightly flour capelins and deep-fry until crispy.
5) Put 1), 2), and 4) in a vat, sprinkle radish and lemon slices, and let it cool.
6) Serve in a dish and garnish with 3).

NOTE: I don't know what the 'soup' is in step 1)!

Edit to add: Maybe 'add soup' is a simple mistake and should be deleted. I can never be sure, though.

Edited by Hiroyuki, 26 July 2004 - 08:58 PM.


#72 nuppe

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 02:28 AM

Yes, you're quick! Thank you! Is it possible to say more about the aona vegetable? If it's genuine japanese; are there other vegetables which are rather similar(like for instance broccoli?)

#73 Hiroyuki

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 03:39 AM

How about spinach? As the name implies, aona refers to any type of green vegetable, like spinach, qing-geng-cai (Chinese green vegetable), komatsuna

Komatsuna:
http://www.kikkoman....omatsuna01.html

Good luck!

Any more requests?

#74 nuppe

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 05:47 AM

Smart! Now I think I can handle it!
Thanks again!

#75 torakris

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 06:35 AM

first of all welcome to egullet and the Japan board! :biggrin:

I must agree with Hiroyuki here that your request is a little too much to ask, if you hae questions about specific words or techniques I am sure you will find a lot more people willing to help. Unfortunately since I am on on a omputer with no Japanese reading or writing ability, I can't help much.

If you have any more specific requests let us know....

Kristin Wagner, aka "torakris"
Manager, Membership
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#76 nuppe

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 07:20 AM

Understood. (hope you didn't think I expected help with all the recipes). In one way I guess I should hire people for stuff like this, but there are not always budgets for that.
On the other hand I would say that this thread could also be counted as exchange of recipes and food knowledge. To my knowledge using capelin/smelt this way is a rather new thing, and I thought it might be a little interesting(for those who know about and are able to get capelin....) But I'm a newcomer, so I will of course listen to what you say and adjust my way.

But this is great! Now I see that there are fishes also at my mackerel hook!(question about mackerel kirimi) Terrific!

#77 melonpan

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Posted 09 August 2004 - 11:29 PM

well, its still killing me, so i was wondering if anyone would be game for just a very very rough translation from japanese into english. its only fifteen seconds...

following this chosun ilbo link click on the movie link near the top of the page. for those who cant see the korean characters, thats fine, just look for the second occurance of "CF" on the page and click on that. the movie should buffer up and start to play (in IE). once its started playing, please forward to minute two. the part i wish to understand is from 2:00 - 2:15 of the movie. its the final segment of the film featuring the principal. it was not translated into korean and i just wanted to know what is happening. no need for exact translations.

thank you most sincerely in advance,

melon

(original query happened in the nomimono thread)
"Bibimbap shappdy wappdy wap." - Jinmyo

#78 Hiroyuki

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Posted 10 August 2004 - 03:20 AM

Translation:

It's summer vacation!
Principal!

Student: Message from the principal!
Principal: Starting from tomorrow, you are supposed to have summer vacation..., but because of you being late for school and dozing off (during class), you have extra time, and we will continue the first term!
(Note: The sign says the extra time is 15 days. In Japanese school systems, we have three terms, first, second, and third.)
All students: Oh, no!

Fanta Sappari Peach is released!

***
I will be away for a few days. I will be on my vacation. Bye!

#79 melonpan

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Posted 10 August 2004 - 05:46 PM

thank you hiroyuki~!

apparently this is in reference to something called "lose time" (at least in korea and probably in japan... but i dont know anything about soccer. what would this be called in english? in korean it is "루스 타임" [ru-seu ta-im]) in soccer games where the ref keeps track of 'lost' time and the players are able to play those lost minutes at the end...

:biggrin:

thanks again
"Bibimbap shappdy wappdy wap." - Jinmyo

#80 mona

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Posted 10 August 2004 - 07:11 PM

Um, do you mean "extra time?"

#81 melonpan

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Posted 11 August 2004 - 02:08 AM

Um, do you mean "extra time?"

:unsure: have no idea. i dont know anything about soccer, really. i suppose extra time sounds good!
"Bibimbap shappdy wappdy wap." - Jinmyo

#82 Hiroyuki

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Posted 13 August 2004 - 12:16 AM

I have just come back from my summer vacation.

As you say, extra time sounds good. In Japanese, we call it rosu taimu.
For your reference, here is a copy of the results of a search with Eijiro:

検索文字列 : ロスタイム
該当件数 : 8

ロスタイム
added time〔サッカーの〕
ロスタイム
extra time // injury time
ロスタイム ;《サッカー》
stoppage time
後半のロスタイム
second-half injury time
前半のロスタイムに ;《サッカー》
in the injury time of the first half
ロスタイムに決勝点を決める ;《サッカー》
grab the winner in extra time
ロスタイムに入って_分後に ;《サッカー》
__ minutes into injury time
ロスタイムに入ってわずか_秒でXを打ち負かした。
It needed only __ minutes of extra time to beat X

Eijoro on the Web:
http://www.alc.co.jp/

#83 Hiroyuki

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 05:03 AM

Call me a fool and answer my question.

How do you pronounce eGullet? I joined this forum six months ago and I still don't know for sure how to pronouce it.

Thanks.

#84 Pan

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 11:28 AM

Believe it or not, there's a two-page thread called "What syllable do you emphasize in eGullet?"

#85 Laksa

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 11:49 AM

what would this be called in english?  in korean it is "루스 타임" [ru-seu ta-im]) in soccer games where the ref keeps track of 'lost' time and the players are able to play those lost minutes at the end...

View Post

I have heard it referred to as "stoppage time" as well as "injury time" in the soccer commentaries I've followed.

Edited to add: Duh! I didn't see that Hiroyuki has already answered your question.

Edited by Laksa, 11 September 2004 - 11:51 AM.


#86 Hiroyuki

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 02:05 PM

Believe it or not, there's a two-page thread called "What syllable do you emphasize in eGullet?"

View Post


Oh, boy! I don't believe this... I have to post my question there...
Thanks, Pan.

#87 torakris

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 03:03 PM

I have decided to pin this topic so that it doesn't get lost in the forum and will be easier to find.

Kristin Wagner, aka "torakris"
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kwagner@egstaff.org


#88 Hiroyuki

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 12:17 AM

In response to a question in the 'nakashoku' thread:

The reason why nakashoku sounds strange to native Japanese is that it is a word with ‘yutou yomi’.

IN JAPANESE (not in Chinese), almost all Chinese characters have two types of pronunciation, Japanese one (kun yomi) and Chinese-derived one (on yomi).

Yutou yomi pertains to a combination of two Chinese characters the first one of which is pronounced in the Japanese way and the second of which in the Chinese-derived way.
Yutou, meaning ‘hot-water pot’, is pronounced this way, hence yutou yomi (= reading).
On the contrary, juubako yomi pertains to a combination of two Chinese characters pronounced the other way round; the first one is pronounced in the Chinese-derived way and the second in the Japanese way.
Juubako, meaning ‘multitiered box’, is pronounced this way.
中食, if pronounced chuushoku, would be interpreted to mean ‘lunch’ (昼食, same pronunciation), and this is why it is usually pronounced nakashoku.

#89 melonpan

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 10:12 PM

IN JAPANESE (not in Chinese), almost all Chinese characters have two types of pronunciation, Japanese one (kun yomi) and Chinese-derived one (on yomi)...  ...中食, if pronounced chuushoku, would be interpreted to mean ‘lunch’ (昼食, same pronunciation), and this is why it is usually pronounced nakashoku.

korean always pronounces chinese words with onyomi. there is no kunyomi equivalent. because of all the chinese loanwords in korean, there are a heck of a lot of homonyms (in chinese those same words would more likely have different tones) and if you have to, you have to guess words from context. i wonder why kunyomi did not develop in korea.

when kanji is written, its clear what the word is. spoken japanese is of course different. lets say though, that there is no kunyomi, just like in korean. i am sure one can guess what word is being talked about from context despite homophones; so one might wonder the opposite, why did kunyomi develop in japan to the extent that it has?
"Bibimbap shappdy wappdy wap." - Jinmyo

#90 Hiroyuki

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Posted 27 September 2004 - 04:00 PM

Homonyns are a problem in Japanese, too. I didn't know you have the same problem in Korean.

Now to the main issue:

For one thing, it's not hard to imagine that in learning Chinese characters, ancient Japanese memorized both the pronunciation (in Chinese) and the meaning (in Japanese) of each character at the same time, which is thought to have led to the development of on yomi and kun yomi.

More importantly, because of the great difference between the Chinese and Japanese languages in all aspects such as pronunciation and word order, ancient Japanese developed an ingenious system for assisting in interpreting Chinese text, called kun doku (reading in the Japanese way), which calls for kaeri ten (return marks) and okuri gana (declensional endings written with Japanese phonetic characters).

Let me explain how the system works, using a very simple English sentence.

_wa _su _o
I love you.
____レ

wa, su, and o are okuri gana and レ is a return mark called 're ten'. (Ignore the underscores; they are merely inserted to put the characters where they should be.)

This system helps the reader interpret the sentence into I-wa you-o love-su and into a final Japanese equivalent, watashi-wa anata-o ai-su.
This system is thought to have further contributed to the development of on yomi and kun yomi.
For a further explanation of return marks, refer to the following:
http://www.jekai.org...np08.htm#Sense1
***
Made some corrections.

Edited by Hiroyuki, 27 September 2004 - 09:39 PM.