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#31 Ben Hong

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 05:34 AM

Despite the fact that some people believe that this board should be strictly limited to food and related topics, I am mightily pleased that it is not always so...as illustrated by this very informative thread. Torakris and Hiroyuki, I am grateful for your erudition and abilities to impart some of your deep cultural knowledge to all who read this board. Kudos.

BTW, my Japanese friends have always called me Kuma-san, as my family name in Mandarin is Hsiung, or Bear. :cool:

#32 prasantrin

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 02:25 PM

>おいしかったです。ありがとうございます。

I can't think of any appropriate expressions right now, so let me just tell you how to intensify the expression you mentioned.

You can put

とても
大変 (たいへん)
とても
とっても (emphatic and colloquial)
すごく (colloquial)
すっごく (emphatic and colloquial)

before

おいしかったです。

Hey! You forgot...(sorry, I don't have hiragana on my computer)

mettcha
gotsu
monogotsu

:biggrin:

#33 Hiroyuki

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 02:51 PM

Hey!  You forgot...(sorry, I don't have hiragana on my computer)

mettcha
gotsu
monogotsu

:biggrin:

:biggrin: Thank you for reminding me of Osaka dialect!

#34 torakris

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 03:31 PM

***
いただきます (itadakimasu) and ごちそうさま(でした) (gochisousama (deshita)):
We usually don't say them when we eat alone, but when we eat with someone else, it is quite customary to say them. And, I usually say ごちそうさま (gochisousama) as I leave a restaurant. When you are invited to dinner, these expressions are NOT optional; they are required!

I would also like to stress this last part of what Hiroyuki said. when someone else pays for your meal or you eat at their house a gochisousamadeshita is a requirement, this is said instead of arigatou (Thank you). Think of it as a special way to say thank you for food! :biggrin:
When I eat with my in-laws, we will say it either at the table or as we are leaving the restaurant, we then say it again either as we leave their house or make the final separation for the evening, even if it is sometime later.

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#35 Sleepy_Dragon

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 07:08 PM

Thank you torakris and Hiroyuki for these very helpful explanations, they were what I was thinking of when I'd asked about different situations. Also, うまい (umai)was the word I was trying to remember! Now I can lay that nagging memory to rest.

I might even have a chance to use some of this tomorrow night. My conversation partners emailed me to make plans for all of us to go out for dinner at a local Japanese restaurant, so that's what I will be doing after school.

いただきます (itadakimasu) and ごちそうさま(でした) (gochisousama (deshita)):
We usually don't say them when we eat alone, but when we eat with someone else, it is quite customary to say them. And, I usually say ごちそうさま (gochisousama) as I leave a restaurant. When you are invited to dinner, these expressions are NOT optional; they are required!


Ok, so if I were to go to a restaurant by myself, upon receiving the food from the waiter, would I not say いただきます (itadakimasu) because I'm alone?

What about when sitting at a sushi bar as the itamae places each pair of nigirizushi in front of me? Is it いただきます(itadakimasu) for each, or something else?

Pat

Edited by Sleepy_Dragon, 03 June 2004 - 07:10 PM.

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#36 Hiroyuki

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 07:37 PM

1.  If I were to go to a restaurant by myself, upon receiving the food from the waiter, would I not say いただきます (itadakimasu) because I'm alone?

2.  What about when sitting at a sushi bar as the itamae places each pair of nigirizushi in front of me? Is it いただきます(itadakimasu) for each, or something else?

CAUTION: Let me tell you what I would or would not say in these particular situations.

1. In this situation, I would NOT say いただきます to the waiter REGARDLESS OF WHETHER I AM ALONE OR WITH SOMEONE ELSE.
2. In this situation, I would or would not say いただきます to the itamae when he serves the first pair. Whether I would say it depends on a variety of factors.

EDIT:
I guess you are puzzled. I'm thinking about how best I can answer your question.

Edited by Hiroyuki, 03 June 2004 - 09:18 PM.


#37 torakris

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Posted 03 June 2004 - 11:09 PM

1.  If I were to go to a restaurant by myself, upon receiving the food from the waiter, would I not say いただきます (itadakimasu) because I'm alone?

2.  What about when sitting at a sushi bar as the itamae places each pair of nigirizushi in front of me? Is it いただきます(itadakimasu) for each, or something else?

CAUTION: Let me tell you what I would or would not say in these particular situations.

1. In this situation, I would NOT say いただきます to the waiter REGARDLESS OF WHETHER I AM ALONE OR WITH SOMEONE ELSE.
2. In this situation, I would or would not say いただきます to the itamae when he serves the first pair. Whether I would say it depends on a variety of factors.

EDIT:
I guess you are puzzled. I'm thinking about how best I can answer your question.

In situation 1, you wouldn't need either an itadakimasu or gouchisousamadeshita.

In situation 2, I would only say itadakimasu if I had some type of rapport with the guy behind the counter or if it was a really tiny place (just a couple seats) as that feels more "homey". I would however say a gochisousamadeshita as I left though.

In a restaurant eating WITH other people, the itadakimasu is said more to the people at the table than the waitresses/chefs. It is more like a "I am going to start eating now" While not really necessary to be said in a restaurant, itakimasu should ALWAYS be said when partaking of food in someone's home, anything from a full course meal to a cup of tea or even a pocky stick. :biggrin:
It can also be used instead of a thank you, when someone offers you food. For example if someone says "would you like a pocky stick?" you could answer "itadakimasu" and you will have covered three things with one word. No need to say yes, or thank you and itadakimasu will suffice.

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#38 Sleepy_Dragon

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 12:52 PM

In situation 1, you wouldn't need either an itadakimasu or gouchisousamadeshita.


Ok, then for waitstaff a simple ありがとうございます (arigatou gozaimasu) is appropriate?

In situation 2, I would only say itadakimasu if I had some type of rapport with the guy behind the counter or if it was a really tiny place (just a couple seats) as that feels more "homey". I would however say a gochisousamadeshita as I left though.


Ok, that makes sense. Then what should one say to an initially quiet itamae they are visiting for the first time?

I remembered to say gochisousamadeshita last night, though forgot the itadakmasu until my conversation partners said it, then I said it in mid-scoop of agenasu. Oops.

Another interesting thing is they both used うまい (umai) instead of おいしい (oishii) even though they're both women. I asked them about the gender thing and one of them said her grandmother would never use うまい and really dislikes it when she uses it, but otherwise nowadays it's ok. They both liked うまえ more because it sounds more emphatic. One is in her early 20's, the other in her late 20's.

Pat

Edited by Sleepy_Dragon, 05 June 2004 - 12:55 PM.

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#39 Hiroyuki

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Posted 05 June 2004 - 02:51 PM

1.  Ok, then for waitstaff a simple ありがとうございます (arigatou gozaimasu) is appropriate?

2.  Then what should one say to an initially quiet itamae they are visiting for the first time?

3.  I remembered to say gochisousamadeshita last night, though forgot the itadakmasu until my conversation partners said it, then I said it in mid-scoop of agenasu. Oops.

4.  Another interesting thing is they both used うまい (umai) instead of おいしい (oishii) even though they're both women. I asked them about the gender thing and one of them said her grandmother would never use うまい and really dislikes it when she uses it, but otherwise nowadays it's ok. They both liked うまえ more because it sounds more emphatic. One is in her early 20's, the other in her late 20's.

1. I simply say, どうも doumo. Some say nothing, some ありがとう, others may say ありがとうございます (which sounds too polite to me in this particular situation).

2. Difficult for me to answer. Maybe nothing.

3. It's never too late to mend. Just say, あっ、すいません。いただきますを言うのを忘れました。いただきまーす!
(Ah, sorry, I forgot to say Itadakimasu. Itadakimaasu!)

4. A likely story. Women are changing rapidly. Another word that women hesitate to use is kuu 食う (to eat). Women usually use taberu 食べる instead. My sister has a strong aversion to kuu; whenever I say kuu, she says "Stop it!" 止めて.

P.S.
I'm still working on your Itadakimasu and Gochisousama question. I will post my answer in two or three days.

#40 Hiroyuki

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 06:33 AM

スリーピー_ドラゴンさん、おまたせしました。
(Literally, Sleepy_Dragon-san, I'm sorry to have kept you waiting.)
おまたせしました (Omatase shimashita) is another useful expression. You can use it after you have kept someone waiting only for one minute!)

1) Itadakimasu and Gochisousama(deshita) are regarded as greetings just like Ohayou(gozaimasu) (Good morning), Kon'nichiwa (Good afternoon), and Konbanwa (Good night) and, therefore, you usually do not say them when you are alone. (Also regarded as greetings are Ittekimasu (Goodbye, used by someone who is about to go out), Itterasshai (reply to Ittekimasu, or you can say Itterasshai first), Tadaima (used by someone who has just come home), and Okaeri(nasai) (reply to Tadaima, or you can say Okaeri(nasai) first).

2) Usage of Itadakimasu and Gochisousama(deshita) at MY home
a) We say Itadakimasu in unison after we all sit at the table, or
b) My wife says Douzo meshiagare (Bon appetite), and my children and I say Itadakimasu in reply, either in unison or one by one, or
c) My children and I say Itadakimasu first, either in unison or one by one, and my wife says Douzo meshiagare in reply or says nothing.

We say Gochisousama one by one when we finish eating.
We don't say Gochisousamadeshita; it is too polite at my home.

3) Usage of Itadakimasu and Gochisousama(deshita) at someone's house
Don't touch or eat anything until the host says something like:
Nannimo arimasen ga, douzo omeshiagari kudasai (literally, "There is nothing, but please help yourself") or
Okuchini au ka douka wakarimasen ga, douzo omeshiagari kudasai (literally, "I don't know whether this suits your taste, but please help yourself")
Then, say Itadakimasu, (Sore)deha (= then) Itadakimasu, Sore(deha) enryonaku (= without reserve) Itadakimasu, or something like that .

When you finish eating, say something like
Gochisousamadeshita. Totemo oishikatta desu (It was very delicious).

The host will definitely insist that you eat more, by saying something like:
Go-enryo naku motto douzo. (Please have some more without reserve.)
Then, say something like:
Iie, hontouni mou kekkoudesu. Takusan itadakimashita. Mou onaka ippai desu!
(No, I really couldn't. I've had enough. I'm already full!)
Most importantly, the next time you see the host, don't forget to mention the dinner by saying something like:
Kono mae ha gochisousamadeshita. (Kono mae ha = the last time)

This is true for other things too. When someone does you a favor, it is quite customary to mention it the next time you see them.

EDIT: I added some translations.

Edited by Hiroyuki, 09 June 2004 - 03:03 PM.


#41 Pan

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 09:10 AM

Hiroyuki, please translate the expressions that are not translated in your last post. Thanks a lot.

#42 Hiroyuki

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Posted 09 June 2004 - 03:07 PM

Pan, I added some translations. I knew someone would say something like that, but I didn't expect it was you. :biggrin:

#43 Hiroyuki

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Posted 10 June 2004 - 12:15 AM

I almost forgot.

Umai うまい has a totally different meaning from good-tasting:
Umai can mean "good at".
For example,
彼はスキーがうまい
Kare wa sukii ga umai
He is good at skiing/He is a good skier/He skies well.

In this sense, umai can be used by both men and women.

#44 torakris

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Posted 10 June 2004 - 12:26 AM

Today, I had lunch with two Japanese friends at an Okinawa restaurant we just discovered by our house. It was a small restaurant with just two women working, we had a simple conversation with both of them (during and after the meal) and when we finished paying the bill we all said "gochisousamadeshita" to both of them.

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#45 Hiroyuki

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Posted 10 June 2004 - 06:52 AM

In my opinion, you have three opportunities for saying Gochisousama(deshita) at a restaurant:
1) When the waiter/waitress comes to your table to clear away the dishes, you may want to say it, especially if you are a regular,
2) When you stand up to leave the restaurant, you may want to say it to signal that you are ready to leave, and
3) After you have finished paying, you may want to say it as you leave as if to say good-bye. (I don't think we say Sayonara (good-bye) in this situation.)
I think it's absolutely OK to say it at all these opportunities. I usually say it at opportunity 3) only, though.

When it comes to saying Itadakimasu at a restaurant, things are totally different, I think. Of course, if you are not alone, it is quite customary to say Itadakimasu in unison with your companion(s) if your and your companions' dishes are served at the same time; otherwise, you can say something like "Suimasen ga, osaki ni itadakimasu" (Sorry, let me eat first) if your dish is served first, and your companions will reply, "Douzo, douzo" (Please go ahead).
But, in my case, I usually do not say Itadakimasu to the waiter/waitress when he/she brings me my dish, and I don't think I have a chance to say it to the chef either even if I sit at the counter, unless I am a regular or the chef is attentive to me.

I think there are different opinions about this matter even among native Japanese.

#46 torakris

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Posted 13 June 2004 - 03:11 PM

Yesterday as my family was having lunch at Yoshinoya (my first time there in almost 14 years!), the man a couple chairs away (the restuarant is set up as one big sort of s shaped counter) stood and announced "gochisousama" as the way of letting the waiter know he was ready to pay his check. I have never really noticed anyone ever do that before in this kind of restaurant, of course I also don't normally frequent those kind of restaurants....
I didn't notice any of the other customers do it either though and I would probably never use it in that kind of situation, so it really just depends on the person.

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#47 Sleepy_Dragon

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 04:00 PM

Sorry about my late reply, I've been busy with finals, glad they're over now. Anyway, thanks torakris and Hiroyuki for such detailed and helpful explanations and examples. It's nice to have a better idea about how the social mores work.

Pat
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#48 gus_tatory

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 04:20 PM

Hiroyuki-san:
is there a way, in spoken Japanese, to know when to 'drop' the last vowel, and when to pronounce it?
i ask this question as a beginner Japanese student.
:smile:
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#49 Hiroyuki

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 04:29 PM

Hhmm, could you give me just one example so I can answer your question with confidence?

#50 smallworld

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 07:51 PM

Yesterday as my family was having lunch at Yoshinoya (my first time there in almost 14 years!), the man a couple chairs away (the restuarant is set up as one big sort of s shaped counter) stood and announced "gochisousama" as the way of letting the waiter know he was ready to pay his check. I have never really noticed anyone ever do that before in this kind of restaurant, of course I also don't normally frequent those kind of restaurants....
I didn't notice any of the other customers do it either though and I would probably never use it in that kind of situation, so it really just depends on the person.

I always do that!
So how do you usually ask for your check in this type of place?
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#51 torakris

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Posted 20 June 2004 - 09:49 PM

Yesterday as my family was having lunch at Yoshinoya (my first time there in almost 14 years!), the man a couple chairs away (the restuarant is set up as one big sort of s shaped counter) stood and announced "gochisousama" as the way of letting the waiter know he was ready to pay his check. I have never really noticed anyone ever do that before in this kind of restaurant, of course I also don't normally frequent those kind of restaurants....
I didn't notice any of the other customers do it either though and I would probably never use it in that kind of situation, so it really just depends on the person.

I always do that!
So how do you usually ask for your check in this type of place?

they usually give the check with the meal, so I just walk over to the register...

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#52 Hiroyuki

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 06:32 AM

Hiroyuki-san:
is there a way, in spoken Japanese, to know when to 'drop' the last vowel, and when to pronounce it?
i ask this question as a beginner Japanese student.
:smile:

I'm not sure, but are you talking about them?

1) ii vs. single long i vowel (let me represent it i-)
2) ei vs. single long e vowel (e-)
3) ou vs. single long o vowel (o-)

For example,

1) The Japanese word for pretty is written as kawaii かわいい, but pronounced kawai-.
2) The word for clock is written as tokei とけい, but pronounced toke-.
3) The word for king is written as oh おう, but pronounced o-.

#53 Hiroyuki

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 06:36 AM

I always do that!
So how do you usually ask for your check in this type of place?

I could say that too, but I usually say,
Suimasen (Execuse me).
or
Suimasen, o-kanjo. (Execuse me, check, please).

Again, that really depends on the person, I think.

#54 gus_tatory

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 09:04 AM

Hiroyuki-san:
is there a way, in spoken Japanese, to know when to 'drop' the last vowel, and when to pronounce it?
i ask this question as a beginner Japanese student.
:smile:

I'm not sure, but are you talking about them?

1) ii vs. single long i vowel (let me represent it i-)
2) ei vs. single long e vowel (e-)
3) ou vs. single long o vowel (o-)

For example,

1) The Japanese word for pretty is written as kawaii かわいい, but pronounced kawai-.
2) The word for clock is written as tokei とけい, but pronounced toke-.
3) The word for king is written as oh おう, but pronounced o-.

thanks Hiroyuki--

those are helpful, and are good examples. to my ear, i can barely hear the last U in "gozaimasu". same thing with "desu"--it sounds like "des-".

i guess the question is: are vowels at the end of words/sentences always dropped? if not, when are they kept?

thanks in advance,
gus
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#55 torakris

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 02:56 PM

Gus,
something like that you just pick up after a while, in general I would say you use the last vowel in more formal situations and drop it when speaking more casually.

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#56 Hiroyuki

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 03:46 AM

are vowels at the end of words/sentences always dropped? if not, when are they kept?

I think that masu ます and desu です are the ONLY words in which such dropping usually occurs. As you point out, we usually say mas and des rather than masu and desu. This is simply because they are easier to pronounce, I think.

You said you were a beginner Japanese student, so I don't think you need any more information at this point, but when I have more time, I'd like to talk about some Japanese people who say masu and desu. My talk will be based on the following two sites:
http://www.tv-tokyo..../syunjyu/01.htm
http://w2.avis.ne.jp...it-n/mori-7.htm

Edited by Hiroyuki, 22 June 2004 - 04:27 AM.


#57 gus_tatory

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 12:18 PM

Gus,
something like that you just pick up after a while, in general I would say you use the last vowel in more formal situations and drop it when speaking more casually.

thanks torakris and Hiroyuki--

i am listening to Japanese internet radio at NHK online, and just bought a Teach Yourself Japanese course yesterday with two huge books and three CDs.

thanks for your help. :smile:
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#58 Sleepy_Dragon

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 09:49 PM

Uwajimaya in Seattle occasionally flies in tenmusu chefs to make tenmusu for sale to the public for a few glorious days. In trying to communicate with them in my mangled stomped-on Japanese how much I enjoyed them, I did notice they dropped the "u" at the end of tenmusu, so perhaps it's not limited to verbs and the desu copula.

My conversation partners also tend to drop it, but will pronounce it if I ask them to repeat a word I'm trying to learn.

Also hard to catch in conversation at times is when a vowel gets lengthened. In which case I inwardly hope and pray for enough context to tell me what's what.

Pat
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#59 Pompollo

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 10:02 PM

Quote (gus_tatory Posted on Jun 21 2004, 09:04 AM )

i guess the question is: are vowels at the end of words/sentences always dropped? if not, when are they kept?


As a basic rule, it is safe to say that the "u" sound is dropped when preceded by an "s", and that is why people do say "des" for "desu", "mas" for "masu", and skiyaki for "sukiyaki".
But, people do NOT drop the final "u" in verbs, as the verb to "eat" [taberu] is said "ta be roo" , and the verb "go" is "iku" that is definitely pronounced "ee koo" and to die "shinu" is said exactly like "she knew".

In fact, when people exagerate and do pronounce the "u" in "desu" or "masu" at the end of words, they are usually trying to emphasize something in a joking manner, resembling children who sometimes vocalize the "u".

#60 smallworld

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 10:23 PM

Uwajimaya in Seattle occasionally flies in tenmusu chefs to make tenmusu for sale to the public for a few glorious days. In trying to communicate with them in my mangled stomped-on Japanese how much I enjoyed them, I did notice they dropped the "u" at the end of tenmusu, so perhaps it's not limited to verbs and the desu copula.

You're right, it's not. When a word, any word, ends in the syllable 'su', the final vowel tends to get dropped, especially in casual speech. I think the reason Hiroyuki said it was only 'masu' and 'desu' that get their final vowels dropped was because those verbs are by far the most common words that end in 'su'.

Actually, I think the final u is never really dropped, it's just said really quietly. Or said silently under the breath- one's tongue and mouth are forming the u, there's just no sound coming out.
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