60 replies to this topic

[mags]

Actually, as much as I tend to dislike Bobby Flay -- and I do -- he got my armchair vote. First, I did think the trout ice cream was novelty for the sake of novelty. I mean, if it tasted like trout, it would have been revolting; if it didn't taste like trout, the dish would have failed to serve the purpose of the contest, which is to highlight the main ingredient. Reminded me of that place in Bar Harbor that makes disgusting lobster ice cream purely because they know that teenage boys will dare each other to order it, toss it after one lick, and then order a cone of fudge-ripple.

Second, I thought his use of "luxury" ingredients like caviar and -- wasn't there foie gras in something early on? --was almost insulting, in an odd way. "Oh, the moron Americans with their Teflon palates...I'll just heap on the caviar and the foie and that way they'll 'know' the stuff is good." I actually found the heavy hand with the caviar almost lazy, in a way.

I agree with Rachel that Sakai was not playing to U.S. tastes, but what I'm thinking of is American associations with trout. In my experience, we tend to think of trout as a sort of down-home fish; we eat it with bacon, or smoked, or pan-fried with cornmeal. So to our tastes, putting trout in, say, a spicy Chinese-style soup with shark-fin DOESN'T highlight the trout; it masks it. I am almost never a fan of Bobby Flay's food; he seems to put fruit (or honey) and chiles in everything, and even the recipes make me itch. But his dishes were the ones I wanted to try last night.

[Singapore]

I second that and I WAS THERE! Flays dishes were awesome, no disrespect to any of the other I.C's but the man can cook. Flay cooks for the American palate, he has tthe same advantage that the I.C's had in Japan...home field!

Sorry, Chris. I just can't, in my heart of hearts, accept Flay winning for fish tacos, and a cast iron skillet presentation that reminded me more of a meal at my local Cracker Barrel, or TGI Fridays. Not impressed at all.

[ferdlisky]

I'm fascinated by the anti-Flay position many people have taken. Is this based on his show? The food at his restaurant?

[ferdlisky]

Actually, as much as I tend to dislike Bobby Flay -- and I do -- he got my armchair vote. First, I did think the trout ice cream was novelty for the sake of novelty. I mean, if it tasted like trout, it would have been revolting; if it didn't taste like trout, the dish would have failed to serve the purpose of the contest, which is to highlight the main ingredient. Reminded me of that place in Bar Harbor that makes disgusting lobster ice cream purely because they know that teenage boys will dare each other to order it, toss it after one lick, and then order a cone of fudge-ripple.

Second, I thought his use of "luxury" ingredients like caviar and -- wasn't there foie gras in something early on? --was almost insulting, in an odd way. "Oh, the moron Americans with their Teflon palates...I'll just heap on the caviar and the foie and that way they'll 'know' the stuff is good." I actually found the heavy hand with the caviar almost lazy, in a way.

I agree with Rachel that Sakai was not playing to U.S. tastes, but what I'm thinking of is American associations with trout. In my experience, we tend to think of trout as a sort of down-home fish; we eat it with bacon, or smoked, or pan-fried with cornmeal. So to our tastes, putting trout in, say, a spicy Chinese-style soup with shark-fin DOESN'T highlight the trout; it masks it. I am almost never a fan of Bobby Flay's food; he seems to put fruit (or honey) and chiles in everything, and even the recipes make me itch. But his dishes were the ones I wanted to try last night.

mags, agree with you right down the line. I'm also puzzled by the anti-American cooking feeling that seems to be pervasive here. Because Flay presented in a cast iron skillet that is bad???? American flavors are not as good as Sakai's French inflected Asian flavors??? I'm not even an American and it's bugging me! It seems so knee jerk, and dare I say it, a little insecure...

[mongo_jones]

I suppose it's because I have tasted the Mesa approach and think of it as the way Wagner would cook. Personally, while I acknowledge the historical and musical impact of Wagner's works, and find some of his oevre palatable, on the whole, I think of it as bombastic, brassy, and without subtlety. Maybe melodious, but not harmonious. Sakai obviously is more of a Scarlati, and thus failed.

i have it on good authority that wagner was a staggeringly subtle cook

[mags]

I'm fascinated by the anti-Flay position many people have taken. Is this based on his show? The food at his restaurant?

I've only eaten at Mesa Grill once, and I was surprised to find that I liked the food; all of the recipes I've seen Bobby Flay demonstrate -- on those "I can't sleep and it's 3 in the morning, so I might as well watch Food TV" occasions -- have turned me off. I'm not a chili-head, and I actively dislike most (non-Asian) preparations tha pair meat and fruit (much less meat and honey), in which he seems to specialize. I don't think I've ever seen him cook anything that appealed to me.

More than that, though, I find his entire public persona hugely off-putting, along the lines of an overgrown frat boy. He comes across, to me, as arrogant, shallow, and fatuous, with an ego the size of a small midwestern city. He also doesn't seem to have any sense of humor about himself, which for me is a major, MAJOR strike.

Plus he's an old friend of someone I loathe.

[ExtraMSG]

Second, I thought his use of "luxury" ingredients like caviar and -- wasn't there foie gras in something early on? --was almost insulting, in an odd way. "Oh, the moron Americans with their Teflon palates...I'll just heap on the caviar and the foie and that way they'll 'know' the stuff is good." I actually found the heavy hand with the caviar almost lazy, in a way.

Mags, I agree with you except here. On the old show, Sakai often used luxury ingredients to excess. I can remember him using foie gras, truffles, and caviar all on the same show, maybe on the same dish.

[TrishCT]

Second, I thought his use of "luxury" ingredients like caviar and -- wasn't there foie gras in something early on? --was almost insulting, in an odd way. "Oh, the moron Americans with their Teflon palates...I'll just heap on the caviar and the foie and that way they'll 'know' the stuff is good." I actually found the heavy hand with the caviar almost lazy, in a way.

Mags, I agree with you except here. On the old show, Sakai often used luxury ingredients to excess. I can remember him using foie gras, truffles, and caviar all on the same show, maybe on the same dish.

Yep...and Sakai is a french chef after all....

[srhcb]

I'm fascinated by the anti-Flay position many people have taken. Is this based on his show? The food at his restaurant?

Flay gets the same flack on another food discussion board too. Maybe he's not Mr Congeniality, but he must have some kind of following if the Food Network keeps him on?

And did you see how neatly he split the coconuts?

[bleachboy]

As for myself, I truly enjoyed Iron Chef America, and look forward to the episodes to come. They nailed the chairman, and Alton Brown really does a great job as the replacement for Hattori.

I do agree with the poster that mentioned that they'd like to hear more comments from the Peanut Gallery -- that was often one of the most fun elements of the Japanese Iron Chef. Especially when you'd get a giggly actor girl who turned out to be a serious foodie and would start schooling Hattori on how the dishes would turn out.

I agreed with the judges in the Flay vs. Sakai battle, but I did not agree in the Batali vs. Morimoto battle. I won't post spoilers in case you haven't seen the battle yet, but I thought Morimoto's dishes looked just a tiny bit better than Batali's. In my opinion, the Batali/Morimoto matchup was a much closer call than Flay/Sakai.

As an aside, the dish that Sakai produced that was trout tartare in a ring mold surrounded by small, perfectly arranged cucumber slices -- is that a tradidional French dish? I have had the exact same dish at Daniel (NYC), but with tuna.

[Gul_Dekar]

I guess Sakai lost points for taste mostly because of the trout ice cream. From their body language, it seemed like the judges didnt really like it all that much but probably finished it anyway so as to not seem rude to Sakai. Personally I preferred Sakai's presentation over Flay's for most dishes, 'cept maybe just wrapping up the pot as a gift part. I mean if it was a gift, the gift wrapping wasnt done very nicely then. So basically it just seemed like a quick way for Sakai to plate one of his dishes.

What I think is that Sakai was mostly having fun on the show. On the ICJ, he was one of the permanent Iron Chefs, so losing was not an option. But on ICA, he seemed to take it a bit easier since he didnt have a reputation at stake (most people who watch the original know he's a great chef already!).

That's just what I think.

Edited by Gul_Dekar, 25 April 2004 - 08:25 AM.

[mags]

Yep...and Sakai is a french chef after all....

Well, there's an awful lot of French cooking that doesn't involve foie gras and caviar. Maybe I'm reacting to the sense, that I mentioned earlier, that trout is inherently a down-home dish. I mean, I'd like to see what it's like to treat trout as a luxury ingredient; in one dish that would be interesting and creative, like somebody doing a high-end take on chitterlings or pigs' feet or sweet potatoes -- or some other ingredient that Americans typically associate with simple, inexpensive preparations. But when it's every dish, it reads to me like an attempt to cover up a fundamental lack of interest in that ingredient, along the lines of the theory that could could deep-fry (or pile caviar on) just about anything and it would taste good.

Re Mario v. Morimoto, I'm guessing Morimoto lost some serious points for Too Much Raw Lobster. Americans have become nicely conditioned to raw finfish, but we still tend to get real squicked by the notion of raw crustaceans. Morimoto seemed to be operating within a much more traditionally Japanese context than he used to on the old Japanese IC battles, and heaven knows Mario was channeling largely Italian traditions, so it became a showdown between Japanese and Italian food. And while Americans tend to respect Japanese food and can gobble sushi and tempura like maniacs, our comfort zone is a lot closer to Trieste than it is to Tokyo.

[Chris Cognac]

The Judges were all known in advance.

[ExtraMSG]

I really do wish they would break out the scoring, especially if some judges are choosing the "challenger". It'd make it feel like it wasn't a route.

I'm hoping Puck gets beat. I think it would look very suspicious if Morimoto loses two battles in a row. Afterall, he's a lot more familiar with the one hour format than Puck is. Batali, at least, has his half-hour show where he cooks and talks like a Tasmanian devil, plus he's working with his own chefs. Flay has done the show twice before. Puck, though....I don't get the sense he seriously cooks much in his restaurants anymore, plus he has a leisurely show, and he's never competed in the format.

[ronnie_suburban]

I'm with ExtraMSG and Mags here. While I thought Sakai's plating was marginally better, I was much more compelled by what Flay cooked. I watched the episode already knowing the outcome and when I saw the trout ice cream I said to my wife "that's how he lost it, the ice cream." It may have been original but it didn't look very appetizing.

=R=

[Chris Cognac]

I'm with ExtraMSG and Mags here. While I thought Sakai's plating was marginally better, I was much more compelled by what Flay cooked. I watched the episode already knowing the outcome and when I saw the trout ice cream I said to my wife "that's how he lost it, the ice cream." It may have been original but it didn't look very appetizing.

=R=

it is kinda funny, cause he told me that the Trout Ice Cream is something he plans on adding at his place in Japan!

[edsel]

I'm fascinated by the anti-Flay position many people have taken. Is this based on his show? The food at his restaurant?

For a better sense of why so many of us (myself included) find Flay to be obnoxious, check out this thread started by Chris Cognac prior to the new series taping.
In the pre-battle intro aired on Friday, Flay addressed the infamous cutting board incidents. He didn't apologize (far from it), but he did state that prior to the first incident he wasn't aware that the Japanese consider the cutting board to be somewhat "sacred". When he stood on the counter during his second appearance he tossed the cutting board aside - nice gesture, eh?

I'm also puzzled by the anti-American cooking feeling that seems to be pervasive here. Because Flay presented in a cast iron skillet that is bad???? American flavors are not as good as Sakai's French inflected Asian flavors??? I'm not even an American and it's bugging me! It seems so knee jerk, and dare I say it, a little insecure... 

I don't see anything anti-American here. Look around this site and you'll see enthusiastic discussions of many quintessentially American foods. I think that Flay is being bashed for his (previous) boorish behavior. If Flay produced the tastiest dishes that best expressed the theme ingredient, then he deserved to win.

If Sakai is the "Delacroix of French Cuisine", is Flay the "Kincaid of Southwestern cooking"?

[ronnie_suburban]

I'm with ExtraMSG and Mags here.  While I thought Sakai's plating was marginally better, I was much more compelled by what Flay cooked.  I watched the episode already knowing the outcome and when I saw the trout ice cream I said to my wife "that's how he lost it, the ice cream."  It may have been original but it didn't look very appetizing.

=R=

it is kinda funny, cause he told me that the Trout Ice Cream is something he plans on adding at his place in Japan!

...and it'll probably play there. I'm just a rube out here in flyover country

=R=

[Singapore]

mags, agree with you right down the line. I'm also puzzled by the anti-American cooking feeling that seems to be pervasive here. Because Flay presented in a cast iron skillet that is bad???? American flavors are not as good as Sakai's French inflected Asian flavors??? I'm not even an American and it's bugging me! It seems so knee jerk, and dare I say it, a little insecure...

Good heavens! Insecure?

For the record, I rather like Mr. Flay's cooking. But I didn't see anything truly original, or inspiring from him that night. Fish tacos? Look at Batali's performance during his battle-he took the ingredient and transformed it. He didn't just heat it up lumps of fish and pour sauce on it, or hide the taste under hot sauce.

That kind of performance I expect from Chili's or Friday's, not an Iron Chef. And, considering how common the cast iron skillet is used in presentation in mass market restaurants, it may not be bad, but I certainly wouldn't say it's exceptional or inspirational.

[Chris Cognac]

I'm with ExtraMSG and Mags here.  While I thought Sakai's plating was marginally better, I was much more compelled by what Flay cooked.  I watched the episode already knowing the outcome and when I saw the trout ice cream I said to my wife "that's how he lost it, the ice cream."  It may have been original but it didn't look very appetizing.

=R=

it is kinda funny, cause he told me that the Trout Ice Cream is something he plans on adding at his place in Japan!

...and it'll probably play there. I'm just a rube out here in flyover country

=R=

I asked that question to Yuki from Fuji today at the shoot....She said that she would enjoy the Trout Ice Cream...So I think its a palate thing..east vs west.

[mags]

I'm with ExtraMSG and Mags here.  While I thought Sakai's plating was marginally better, I was much more compelled by what Flay cooked.  I watched the episode already knowing the outcome and when I saw the trout ice cream I said to my wife "that's how he lost it, the ice cream."  It may have been original but it didn't look very appetizing.

=R=

it is kinda funny, cause he told me that the Trout Ice Cream is something he plans on adding at his place in Japan!

...and it'll probably play there. I'm just a rube out here in flyover country

=R=

I asked that question to Yuki from Fuji today at the shoot....She said that she would enjoy the Trout Ice Cream...So I think its a palate thing..east vs west.

mmmm, might also be a love-of-the-ingenious thing. I remember covering a fashion show in HK a few years ago, and several of the designers were showing what I thought of as Clothes That Do Tricks -- it's a skirt, but if you button this here and undo this zipper, it's a backpack! And if you hook that strap there and turn the pocket inside out, it's a pair of shorts! Etc.

I tried very hard to think of a context in which these clothes would be desirable, and the only thing I could come up with was a camping trip on which one felt the need to wear designer outfits. With the Trick clothes, you could pack light -- in fact, your backpack COULD BE AN OUTFIT -- but still be chic on every occasion.

However, I was a total neophyte (read: fraud) in the world of fashion journalism, and some of my better-informed colleagues clued me in: The Trick Clothes, they said, were primarily designed for the Japanese market, which has a passion for things clever and/or transformative. You remember those kids' toys, the robots that turn into buildings, the fighter-planes that turn into...ummm, buildings, I guess? I'm told they are huge in Japan. So the dish that's a fish and also a dessert might have real conceptual appeal.

[beegew]

I scoffed when they didn't go ahead and show Flay chop the head off the fish... come on...! Where do Americans think their food comes from? God forbid we see that someone has to kill the animal.

I thought one of the evening's best lines came from that ugly decapitation. Flay started hacking, just as Alton was commenting on how happy the trout looked in the tank and then said "Unfortunately, happy is no longer an issue for that fish..."

I 'bout spit out my vino...

[Rebel Rose]

Both votes for our household go to Sakai.

I'm a fan of SW food, but Every Course was fish, corn and peppers. Heck, we do all that stuff at home. (Although I liked the yellow pepper-miso sauce.) While there were some interesting variations, they weren't really DIFFERENT.

I felt Sakai's dishes were far more innovative, each course was unique from the others, and were truer to the ingredient. Trout-true?

We felt the whole evening was bogus. Let's get some real judges up there! (And that one guy was just rude. He shovels his food in with raised elbows, yet talks like a gastronome? Learn some table art, dude!)

[hedoness]

I thought Sakai had that one won, certainly his presentation and originality topped Flay's creations. I mean, c'mon, a fish taco? How is that original?

I will grant the possibility that the trout ice cream grossed the tasters out.....

Comments? Am I off base here?

I agree with this to a degree. The judges were actually open to the idea- with one of them saying they were very curious about it, and another saying he would gladly try it. They seemed open-minded enough- I don't think the pre-conceived notion of trout ice cream disturbed them, nor do I think there is anything inherently disgusting about it.

I do however I suspect it was not tasty. Maybe it's just not a delicious concept. Original yes, delicious no. This is why you can get 5 points for originality and not have it effect your 10 (more important) points for taste... He should get the 5 for originality, and I suspect 0, or maybe -5, for taste (but I'd like to try it just to know for sure as I usually love all things fish!)

Overall, I think the American judges seriously skewed the answers. How could all three of the American Iron Chefs win?

[Gifted Gourmet]

Overall, I think the American judges seriously skewed the answers.  How could all three of the American Iron Chefs win?

Perhaps a sign of the Apocalypse??

Edited by Gifted Gourmet, 26 April 2004 - 01:02 PM.

[sanguinella]

Dear M,


I really thought that I was clearly and simply comparing the approach to music of Wagner and Scarlati, and my own personal response to these two particular musicians, to the approach of Flay and Sakai to food preparation. For is not cuisine as well as music a matter of creating harmony? Is not cooking a matter of composing melodies for the palate? Are not dissonant or contrasting notes carefully placed by both musicians and chefs? Wagner's specific proficiency as a cook was not the point, nor was it questioned. Why, I could have used painters or other artists to illustrate my thoughts about the differences in techniques and visions of both chefs...

I apologize a priori if my response is a bit off topic.

[Haivart]

And damn, where's anyone find Golden Trout like that? It is a melanistic sport, isn't it?

You can find that trout in many streams in northern West Virginia, especially in the area of Morgantown.

[ExtraMSG]

Overall, I think the American judges seriously skewed the answers.  How could all three of the American Iron Chefs win?

Perhaps a sign of the Apocalypse??

How did the ICJs have 90% winning percentiles? There's always an edge for the home team. I didn't like that when I first watched ICJ, but I learned to like it. It meant that when a challenger beat the Iron Chef you knew he earned it. The Americans have an advantage from the beginning because they're cooking for other Americans.

[JohnnyH]

... I think the issue w/ the shark fin is not so much that it's un-PC as it's just a little too exotic for the Americanized palate. 

I don't know if this has been addressed elsewhere in the thread -- and I apologize if it has -- but shark fin is not "PC" because of the way the sharks are often treated when caught. They are hauled up to the side of the boat to have their dorsal fins cut away while still alive, then released to die an agonizing death. The fins are the only part harvested and, being a delicacy, the practice has had a real impact on certain shark populations.

[hedoness]

Overall, I think the American judges seriously skewed the answers.  How could all three of the American Iron Chefs win?

Perhaps a sign of the Apocalypse??

How did the ICJs have 90% winning percentiles? There's always an edge for the home team. I didn't like that when I first watched ICJ, but I learned to like it. It meant that when a challenger beat the Iron Chef you knew he earned it. The Americans have an advantage from the beginning because they're cooking for other Americans.

Interesting perspective... I guess I can respect that. It's just that one of the judges said he couldn't handle even eating raw fish (!)... Then again, I remember that the judges weren't food experts on the original show either (actors, TV personalities, etc), so I do see your point.