251 replies to this topic

[Moopheus]

In fact, one generally makes ice cream and sorbet with no stabilizer at all in the paco jet.

No ice cream should ever be made with stabilizers in my opinion, but that's a different topic.

Ice cream formulas for "sugar free" ice creams usually call for gelatin and glycerin to provide the body usually supplied by the sugar, though glycerin would still add some sweetness.

A little bit of alcohol would also provide some anti-freeze function.

[tan319]

I think you're going to need to invest in some invert sugar, usually goes by the name of trimoline or numoline, google it, you'll find it.
less eggs, more dry matter (nonfat dry milk, atomised glucose) even glucose syrup is going to help you get there.
Having read some of your posts before, I guess in the 'Sous Vide' thread, I would be tempted to think you might be an owner of the '98/02' book.
Many savory ice cream recipe ideas in there (CDROM) to get an idea of what to work with.
Also, I trust you've tried the pacojet website?
Many recipes there too.
And, as Moopheus already knows this about me, a liitle stabilizer never hurt anybody.

Good Luck!

[Steve Klc]

Why not stabilizers? They are every bit as "natural" as many other ingredients--you think all these different sugars fall off trees? No, they are processed chemically and manipulated, altered, yet still 100% "edible." So, too, are all these ice cream and sorbet stabilizers like pectin, the seaweeds, alginates, etc. If done well you can't "taste" their presence but you can reap the mouthfeel benefits.

Just for others reading along, you get the powder/snow effect with a PacoJet nathan was talking about when the mixture is frozen to the right temp for a Paco--which is -5--AND when it has a relative high water/high dry matter/low sugar/low fat content. So it is cold and hard. Adjust any of those and you won't get snow--don't freeze it so low, bump up the sugar/fat percentage, etc. Adria is intentionally creating this powder--parmesan was the first I recall seeing a recipe for--which likely arose during some trial and error session--and he turned it to his advantage--but he has plenty of recipes which are smooth. If you ever get "powder" unintentionally just let your beaker warm up a bit before spinning and it should cream up fine. I do an olive oil-based ice cream in the Paco with very little sugar, so likely anything you do with fat, vegetable and herb would not require much sugar. The fat gets emulsified as the Paco whizzes away, helping give you body--same thing happens with anything nut based in the Paco due to the oil. Do anything with, say, pistachio or walnut and you'll have to pull alot of sugar out just to get it to a decent texture, i.e. not too soft.

Balancing with acidity is inherent in just about all savory cooking, so there isn't inherently anything wrong with it. You may just find you need it with some combinations, just like more or less sugar or salt is needed with others. If you boost the fat% in a Paco mixture I think you'll find you need some lemon or lime juice even with a very intense savory flavor. I know I need it with the olive oil, but it makes the olive oil taste more like olive oil, if you know what I mean. Greek yogurt, with most of the water strained off, works well in the Paco and might be another way to help you get creaminess, and not reduce the immediacy of flavor the way cream, butterfat and yolks do. Cheeses might help, too.

This is what Adria has been after--how can I get a flavor so pure so direct, say asparagus, that tastes more "asparagusy" than asparagus itself--but in a foam or essence or sorbet? And that series of books is still being written.

Ted and chiantiglace have given you the best general advice though--still use sugar but use the less sweet/less concentrated sugars, the things that have, say, a 75% sweetness coefficient rather than 100% or 135% like invert. Alcohol will of course affect the freezing point and if you're spinning a la minute will also help soften your mixture, but then you're introducing something which will affect your taste much more than a stabilizer ever would of. I haven't used much alcohol in the Paco so I can't speak too much to that.

There's another reality to this nathan--some things are better done in the batch freezer, some in the Paco. I do most sorbets with stabilizers in the batch freezer, most ice creams in the Paco, except for caramel which comes out better in the batch freezer. I don't think "most" sorbets lend themselves well to the Paco process without a lot of modifcation to adjust texture, like by adding a touch of pectin. Most stuff in the Paco in general has to be less sweet than what you'd normally do in the batch freezer, which would seem to help your cause, and which you likely already know.

Depending on how you set your service/storage freezers you may benefit from stabilizers in your Paco recipes, especially if you spin a lot of beakers in advance and then hold them for hours. Not too many people I know spin their Paco a la minute for each serving, as it was originally designed.

Last I checked the recipes on the Pacojet site were not good, there weren't any from an elite chef or pastry chef, someone who got into the science of the whole thing. No Adria, Balaguer, Conticini, all of whom embraced the PacoJet early on. Which is too bad, with the dollar the way it is now, I don't think as many Americans are going to be buying PacoJets for a while.

To date, the people who have spent the time to develop systematic approaches to good ice cream and sorbet programs with the Paco have that approach deployed in their restaurants, setting their program apart. They know how much work it took, they know there's no class at the French Pastry School teaching about the Paco. Right now, it's just a fact of life. Rick Tramonto has a Paco or two at Tru with the mind and skill to use it. Three pastry chefs who know what the Paco can do and what it can't are Sebastien Rouxel (of Per Se), Michael Laiskonis and Chris Broberg. If you're in NY you might ask to do a "Paco" stage with them, I wouldn't be surprised if they've each had to develop savory paco things for their chefs as well. There are a few books, a few other pastry chefs in the US who've really embraced the Paco and are doing some creative things with it, but it's not reached critical mass yet.

[nathanm]

All great advice - thanks. I have and use invert sugar, and the various points about the paco jet are well taken.

I have been hoping that there is a product out there that somebody has used that would be better than invert sugar.

One example would be a sugar that has NO sweet taste. Such things exist. Long chain glucose polymers have this property - once a molecule gets past a certain size, it is difficult for it to bind with taste receptors. This is why invert sugar and corn syrup are not very sweet. However, they have a certain fraction of smaller molecules which makes them somewhat sweet.

Fats are clearly a help. The suggestion to look at sugar free ice cream recipes is a good idea - they are still trying to be sweet, but they have to cope with reduced sugar.

Glycerin is a good suggestion, along the lines of what I am looking for - I will try it.

This suggests to me that lethicin would also be good. I have used it to make foams, but it may have a use here.

Gelling agents are another possibility. If you make mango sorbet in the paco jet, the pectin in the mango whips into a mousse like texture - it practically will not melt! Chocolate mousse in the paco is similar - you use gelatin, but this is pretty tricky because small changes will make it no longer a mousse, so I only rarely do this.

I have the 98/02 book, and Balaguer's book and probably every other high tech / high end cookbook. At the moment there is essentially no coverage of paco jet, as you point out. Mostly that is OK because a little trial and error works.

I do make sorbets in pacojet - they can come out perfectly if everything is balanced correctly. A little stabilizer (sevarome) does help if you hold it, particularly for some ingredients - mango certainly does not need it.

[JSkilling]

Polydextrose might be an option here. From what I understand it has NO sweet taste at all. Danisco makes it:

http://www.daniscosw...se/litesse.html

I've not used it but a chemist who specializes in sugars told me it might be something that would help in sorbet making, since I'm working in a blend of sugars, not just sucrose. And I can't use an invert because I don't want to up the glycemic value. If you do use this, please post your results!

Glycerin, lecithin and a gum stabilizer worked very well for me when I've made sugar free ice cream. I'm able to keep a nice mouthfeel and scoopability for days. I used xanthan gum but I'm willing to bet that any other stabilizer will do the same. When I use the lecithin powder I make sure to pulverize it first. I have yet to use the liquid. I used about 2T glycerin per quart and 1/4 t of gum.

[chiantiglace]

oh i almost forgot. A ot of the time when we blend a wine and a dish you could easily make a wine reduction and use that as your stabilizer.

[nightscotsman]

I think you're going to need to invest in some invert sugar, usually goes by the name of trimoline or numoline, google it, you'll find it.

Invert sugars such as trimoline are actually much sweeter than sugar (sucrose), so while they will do a good job lowering the freezing point, they may not be what you're looking for. Glucose/corn syrup is less sweet, but using too much will tend to give a rubbery texture to the finished product.

[tan319]

This book, whilst being pretty damned expensive, I know has some savory recipes in it.

http://www.chipsbooks.com/artglace.htm

[nathanm]

Yes, I have that book.... it is very good but it does not help much on this topic.

For example it has Langostine ice cream - which is the sort of thing that I want to make.

However, the recipe they have is full of sugar:

600 grams milk
60 grams butter
40 grams egg yolk
60 grams sugar
90 grams atomized glucose
80 grams non-fat dry milk
4 grams stabilizer
130 grams Langoustine reduction (like a bisque)

Or, Pistou ice cream (pistou is French pesto - basil, garlic, pine nuts...)

600 grams milk
60 grams olive oil
40 grams egg yolk
60 grams sugar
90 grams atomized glucose
100 grams non-fat dry milk
6 grams stabilizer
6 grams salt
1 gram black pepper
40 grams pistou

Compare this to one of their recipies for vanilla ice cream

600 grams milk
60 grams butter
80 grams egg yolk
128 grams sugar
34 grams atomized glucose
50 grams non-fat dry milk
2 grams stabilizer
1.5 vanilla beans

So, the difference is that the "savory" recipes have 140 grams of sugar + glucose while the vanilla ice cream has 162 grams of sugar + glucose. Not much of a difference. Changing the ratio of sugar (i.e. sucrose) to glucose will effect sweetness, but it is clear that all of these are really quite sweet.

There is also more egg, and less powdered milk in the vanilla, but that is a different sort of change.

I have not made these recipes (but have made other things from the book). It is great ice cream, but is not the truly savory version I am looking for. Their "savory" recipes are still very sweet ice creams.

[tan319]

I had seen the lang. recipe, but thought perhaps there were others.
You could try backing the sugar down, couldn't you?
Also, something I saw the other day in the Spain focused Feb. issue of Food & Wine.
Sergi Arola has a book out which is in English, he's the chef from La Broche.
There's a recipe for mozzeralla ice cream.
They list Kitchen Arts and Letters for it but I would google it.
The book is called 'Cooking is Fun'.
I first really read about him in a book called 'Hip Chefs, Hot Cuisine'.

http://www.amazon.co...=glance&s=books

It features a collection of "Forward" thinking chefs, mostly Spanish or French, the bios are cool,the recipes are in weights and there are a lot of more savory leaning sorbets, gelees and ice creams.
You can get it pretty cheap too.
If you have access to the El Bulli 98/02 book/cdrom, there are many savory ice creams.
Of course, more then a few cheese ones but you get my drift.
If you want to investigate that ave.and don't have access, PM me.

[akwa]

making a "whipped gelee" is the easiest way to make a savory sorbet.
set a light sugarfree gelee and freeze it, allowing the paco to whip it.
this is a "sorbet"

[nathanm]

I just ordered "cooking is fun", and also the "hip chefs hot cuisine" book. Thanks for the suggestions!

Also, thanks for the suggestion of freezing a gelee....I will try that but from previous experience I think that the right combination of gel + fat + dry matter must be achieved. Also, there is a question of which sort of gel to use - ice cream stabilizer in higher than normal concentration, or something else like sheet gelatine, micri, agar...

[tan319]

Congrats, nathanm!
I really like the 'Hip chefs...' book.
If you don't mind, let me know what you think of the Sergi Arola book when you get it.
Really intrigued by his style.
He opened a Miami branch of his place but i don't think it flew.
There's still a profile on the Starchefs.com rising stars page/Miami.

[akwa]

I just ordered "cooking is fun", and also the "hip chefs hot cuisine" book.  Thanks for the suggestions!

Also, thanks for the suggestion of freezing a gelee....I will try that but from previous experience I think that the right combination of gel + fat + dry matter must be achieved.    Also, there is a question of which sort of gel to use - ice cream stabilizer in higher than normal concentration, or something else like sheet gelatine, micri, agar...

straight up gelatin is the most flexible, no pun intended
take care to have the base properly frozen and spin at the last second before serving for optimal results,
youre welcome to come on by if you want, we make a variety of products like this
good luck

[nathanm]

Great - I will experiment. Come on by where??

[tan319]

Cru!
Dude!!!

[nwyles]

Desserts not being my forte, I am looking to you for a good recipe for sorbet.

I use a Pink Grapefruit sorbet in a martini . I have made it in the past but mine always turns out rock solid after I freeze it. I run it through my ice cream machine, and then place in the freezer.

I use juice, sugar and water. When it comes out of the ice cream machice it is ok, but after a couple of days in freezer, hard as a rock.

Am I missing something ?

[yourmyboyblue]

probably need more sugar. try this.....


pink grapefruit puree 4400 g
water 2840 g
sugar 2150 g
glucose powder 570 g
sorbet stabilizer 40 g

make syrup with water and 3/4 sugar. mix remaining sugar with glucose powder and stabilizer, then whisk into warm syrup. you may need to strain the syrup b/c of undissolved glucose powder. pour over semi frozen puree. burre mix, let mature for 4-5 hours, burre mix again, then spin. about 8 min in batch freezer.

[nwyles]

probably need more sugar.  try this.....


pink grapefruit puree    4400 g
water                          2840 g
sugar                          2150 g
glucose powder            570 g
sorbet stabilizer            40 g

make syrup with water and 3/4 sugar.  mix remaining sugar with glucose powder and stabilizer,  then whisk into warm syrup.  you may need to strain the syrup b/c of undissolved glucose powder.  pour over semi frozen puree.  burre mix, let mature for 4-5 hours, burre mix again, then spin.  about 8 min in batch freezer. 

Where would I get sorbet stabilizer ?

[yourmyboyblue]

uh, i see you are in canada. im not familiar with that area. (im in atlanta) try asking the perveyor (sp?) that you get your pastry stuff (i.e chocolate, vanilla beans....) from. i imagine you can get it online somewhere too. maybe someone else in canada can chime in.

[Moopheus]

Where would I get sorbet stabilizer ?

You could just use a little corn syrup. What's happening is that as the sorbet sits in the freezer, the small ice crystals are melting and reforming as larger ice crystals, and more free water is freezing in the very low temperatures. To a certain extent it is inevitable in a home freezer because of the way they cycle. THe other thing to do is not make more than you're going to use in a day or so, and let the sorbet soften on the counter.

[yourmyboyblue]

im not sure that you can substitute corn syrup for stabilizer. stablizers are kinda like sponges that absorb or release moisture according to the mix. (ice crystals melt and then refreeze, producing a horrible texture) in acidic (like grapefruit) or sweet mixes the stablizer shouldnt exceed 1% of the total mix. ever seen a sorbet "leech"? common with lemon, grapefruit, passion fruit, etc.... these are very liquid mixes (no pulp or body) and need the absortion of a stablizer to work. btw, stabilizers also help with "fluffyness" i like fluffyness



also i forgot to mention that the puree is commercially produced from ravifruit or someone like that. those are 10% sugar content normally and are very consistent. dont use canned grapefruit juice.

[tan319]

There's two ways to go, or at least there was for me.
If you want to stay with the water, syrup, juice/puree route, get one of these.

http://pastrychef.co...ter_2121441.htm

Measuring Baume is how you're going to get a creamy texture(18 to 20degrees) that has less chances of going rock hard on you.
Getting the balance right is very important and this will help greatly, at least it did for me.
If you want to go the other route for sorbes, using atomized glucose, stabilizers, etc., which I'm in no way "pooh pooing", then you should try the Cremoden sorbet stabilizer, it's either #30 or #64, and on the back of the can there's charts that serve as a guideline for either sweet or acidic fruits.
It's quite helpful.
Most of the time I make my sorbets "straight", mainly because I find it works for me and also because making the sorbet "base" is more efficient in large quanities, so you have it on hand and just use either the sweet fruit base or the acidic fruit base.
But if not used within two weeks or so the base will go kind of murky on you.
Try the link and maybe get a hydrometer, go that way at first.
I think you'll be satisfied with the results.

Good Luck!


Edited to add:
VERY IMPORTANT!!!!
If you are going to be dragging your sorbets in and out of freezers, in very hot kitchens, or cooks or servers are going to be using these and leaving them out for long periods of time before remembering to put them back, you should absolutely be using a stabilizer.
Nothing will prevent crystals under those conditions.


Also:
Y.M.B.B. is also right on about watery fruits, even soda.
They're very difficult to get right, even though I never have too much trouble with lemon.
I used sorbet base( sweet) to make root beer sorbet and that was VERY tricky.
Wanted to leech like crazy!!!

Edited by tan319, 01 February 2005 - 12:55 PM.

[yourmyboyblue]

whoops, sorry about the double post, i cant figure out how the quote just a section of the reply tan had a good point about the in and out of freezer. just melt and refreeze if it starts to get too soft and always have backups. how do you quote just a section of the dang post??????????

Edited by yourmyboyblue, 01 February 2005 - 12:55 PM.

[tan319]

Or, instead of melting and refreezing everyday, you can threaten certain death if people keep screwing your stuff up

[yourmyboyblue]

lol, or teach the bartenders to run sorbets

[nwyles]

Lots of info here.

I am sourcing out stabilizers with local baking supplier.

Why no canned juice ? I normally squeeze a case of Ruby grapefruits but was thinking of using a 1 litre boxed juice.

Neil

[nwyles]

lol,  or teach the bartenders to run sorbets

First, I would have to teach mine to walk upright !

[yourmyboyblue]

well im not saying you cant, just not for the recipie that i gave you. that was developed for the 10% sugar-fruit purees. canned juices have varying amounts of sugar and would throw the balance off in my recipie. but i dont see why you couldnt use fresh juice or canned in a sugar/water/juice type formula. just make sure the baume is correct in your syrup its been a while but i think it should measure b/w 14* and 18* at room temp, but i could be wrong. or just use an egg....drop it in and if the top of the floating egg shows a dime to a quarter size, you are close..

[johnder]

I have never used any sort of stabilizer, but in the past when I wanted a sorbet that wouldn't freeze too hard I would add a dash of vodka (maybe 1-2 tbsp) per batch I made. The alcohol, while not imparting taste did prevent some of the sorbet from freezing and making a smoother less firm consistancy.