251 replies to this topic

[Moopheus]

The jackets may be close to zero when they come out of the freezer but within a few minutes that temperature will have risen

I get around this problem with my Krups by keeping it in the freezer while it runs. This keeps it from thawing and the ice cream gets firm without crystals.

[tan319]

Because I cook for one, I normally make small amount of the ice cream at a time.  So, the sleeve was never really a problem as I keep my fridge extremely cold.  But, may be I will buy myself the cuis supreme for my B-day this year.

This is a better machine, for less money. Makes 1 1/2 quarts see it here

And this is a 1 quart machine for even less money and it works very nicely. I have one as it is easier to carry around than the bigger machines.

Well, that gelato chef looks like the S-it!!!
Nice one

[Bicycle Lee]

I'll tell you a great way to make fruit ice cream, and it only takes a couple minutes. Cut up your fruit and freeze it. Chill your cream very well and then begin spinning it in a food processor, add sugar and the frozen fruit. When the cold fruit hits the cream it thickens almost instantly. Remove and eat or return to the freezer to get it a little more firm.

[elion_84]

I get around this problem with my Krups by keeping it in the freezer while it runs.

Wow, this is hard core! Did you have problems with the motor getting wet from condensation?

I have the ICE20 machine and haven't had problems with ice cream or sorbet not freezing. I usually chill the mixture overnight before processing in the machine. I think this also helps develop flavor. I keep the bowl in the freezer between uses. After making the sorbet last night, I had trouble drying the bowl after washing it because the water would freeze in seconds.

[dexygus]

in case anyone wants to know, 1-800-espresso.com responded to me very quickly, and confirmed what i suspected. the oxiria and the gelato chef 2200 are identical except for the exterior. with the $130 difference, the plastic white housing is fine by me.

[tan319]

I have some zatarains root beer extract and am going to make a sorbet with it.
Hopefully it will be part of a new menu item that I'm working on.
Kind of ties in with chefettes thread.
But, what I'm thinking is to simply flavor my S/S base and add water and adjust for baume that I want to hit.
Good idea?
BTW, I tried some of those sorbet syrup recipes that are on the back of the 'cremodan' sorbet stabilizer can and I'm not real impressed.
The one for acidic fruit I used to make lemon sorbet and feel it is not as creamy as the one I usually make.
The reason I experimented was that my usual lemon recipe crystallized on me recently, maybe due to people not putting away right, it was a drag, nonetheless.
Back to the drawing board, I guess.
Anyways, what do you think of the approach to the RB sorbet idea?
I'm all ears.
Thanks!

Edited by tan319, 09 August 2004 - 12:32 PM.

[artisanbaker]

"avant-garde"

[Wendy DeBord]

Rootbeer sorbet sounds good to me, I'd love it. Being a traditionalist type chef I think it would be well recieved big time and a fun flavor to play with.

Your approach sounds fine to me. I keep wondering about actually using some rootbeer in your recipe with the ss and extract to intensify. One of those things I'd have to taste together to see how I'd want to make a formula for it.

[duckduck]

We had a dessert sampler in Vegas at Aqua at the Bellagio and they used a small scoop of root beer sorbet as well as a scoop of ice cream in a little mini root beer float and as far as I was concerned it was the best thing in the whole dessert tasting. It's been kind of haunting me and I've been thinking I'll have to give it a try making it. Tell us how it goes Tan.

[andiesenji]

Rootbeer sorbet sounds good to me, I'd love it. Being a traditionalist type chef I think it would be well recieved big time and a fun flavor to play with.

Your approach sounds fine to me. I keep wondering about actually using some rootbeer in your recipe with the ss and extract to intensify. One of those things I'd have to taste together to see how I'd want to make a formula for it.

It sounds good to me but I am a big fan of that particular flavor.

I grow a lot of anise hyssop, popularly known as "the rootbeer plant" - or rather it grows itself all over my yard and garden, merrily seeding itself in even the tiniest bit of earth. (I found one 3 ft tall specimen growing in an inch of soil in one of my old gardening clogs that was left under a rosemary bush out next to the fence, probably by one of the dogs.)

I dry the leaves to concentrate the oils then brew a very strong infusion to which I add sugar then cook down to make a concentrated syrup.

When I was a child I loved the rootbeer popsicles that we got as a treat when we got to go to "town" with grandpa. My cousins all loved the grape but rootbeer was always my choice.
We always had ice cream, homemade, but the popsicles were store bought so were more desirable.

[artisanbaker]

http://forums.egulle...showtopic=28310

[tan319]

http://forums.egulle...showtopic=28310

Well, I'm not quite sure where I was going. except that Karen and Andrew think American chefs are the new 'avant garde', courtesy of F.Adria believing that.
I think all of the "free" people have just made it easier for us to less self conciously develop an idea around a flavour or combination of flavours, be it Adria, Keller, or Goldfarb or Mason.
The sorbet turned out great.
One of my guys said it tasted like a root beer barrel candy.
Now, if I can just work out this carbonated Anglaise idea...

[twodogs]

isi soda syphon?
cheers

[tan319]

isi soda syphon?
cheers

Yessir...

[tan319]

Got my ISI soda siphon today, dessert came together, it's on the menu tonight.
Kicks some serious ass!!!
Made an anglaise with milk and half and half to keep it light.
Co2 charged it, it's a charm.
Garnished with a sugared dried vanilla bean.
Tried to use pulverized root beer barrels for a garnish but it's so humid, it clumped right together.
That will work in about a month from now.
One of the servers said it was the best thing I've ever made, which is kind of worrisome, but....

edited to add:
So, I sold my 1st one of the night, and this couple were kind of pushing it back and forth( I was watching for their reaction) and we kind of made eye contact, so i went over to ask them how they liked it.
They loved it, really dug it, and we spoke for awhile.
They were New York transplants too ( 22 years ) and as we analyzed it, I discovered something interesting.
Feeling all 'avant and stuff, when I was thinking of the concept, and after talking to this couple, realized I had went in a circle.
I think I made an egg cream.
Pretty neat.

Edited by tan319, 13 August 2004 - 07:03 PM.

[tan319]

Ok, any of you scientists out there, or just informed individuals, maybe you can help me out on this.
I want to get this sorbet right, but the components are really just water (using mineral) and simple syrup, balanced out. And root beer extract, of course.
It;s turning out pretty good, but two things are bothering me.
I AM getting little pockets here and there of syrup, which tell me that perhaps there's too much sugar in the mix.
I thinking of making my next batch with some atomized glucose replacing some of the sugar, and some stabilizer too.
I usually don't use either in my sorbets but this might call for a change in plan.
I've been trying find some like minded recipes for a non fruit puree based sorbet and am coming up pretty blank.
The closest I've come is a tea sorbet, but that has 200 grams of lemon juice in it.
I'll probably play around with some percentages of dry matter based on that but if anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.
Thanks!

[woodburner]

Found a nice bag of lemons at the market this week, deciding a Lemon Sorbet would fit nicely into my New Year's Day Dinner. I found a few different references that confused my a bit though.

I made a simple syrup, boiling the water and sugar, cooled, the added my freshly squeezed lemon juice, whizzed in the cuisinart, and froze.

A similar but slightly differnt variant, said to freeze, for a few hours and then re-whizz in the blender or processor, set back to the freezer for setting up.

I only whizzed once.

It was terrific, and my wife was such a sweety when I served it as a surprise. I hollowed out the lemon halves, removing the last of the pith, set each half into a small goblet, and lemon balled three little scoops into each lemon half, and served with a glass of champagne.

Why would you whizz twice?

woodburner

[culinary bear]

My first thought is that it would help break up any ice crystals, but it's probably just insurance.

I made a margarita sorbet once that benefitted from a second whizzing (I didn't have a sorbetiere at the time).

[chiantiglace]

It incorporates a small amout of air into the sorbet as if you were to spin it in a ice cream machine. It will hold more air if is "semifreddo". But you made Lemon Givre' which is not necsesary to "whizz" twice because you probably shaved it off (classically) to fill the lemon peel. I would "whizz" it twice if i were to fill molds with it or make if more "scoop accesible" for a plated dessert.

[chefcyn]

I make my sorbets in an "old fashioned", though electric, ice-and-rock salt ice cream machine. I mix the juice and the syrup together and chill, then pour it into the machine, run it for 20 min then scrape out and freeze the sorbet in an airtight container. It's smooth and creamy and scoopable. I've made every imaginable flavor including chocolate to great success (at least the plates all came back licked clean and no compaints other than, "what, no more?".

[zilla369]

I make my sorbets in an "old fashioned", though electric, ice-and-rock salt ice cream machine.  I mix the juice and the syrup together and chill, then pour it into the machine, run it for 20 min then scrape out and freeze the sorbet in an airtight container.  It's smooth and creamy and scoopable.  I've made every imaginable flavor including chocolate to great success (at least the plates all came back licked clean and no compaints other than, "what, no more?". 

I do the same thing (4 qt Rival) at work. And I faithfully use a tattered copy of an old Cook's Illustrated chart which adjusts the sugar, lemon juice and liquor amounts according to the sweetness of your main fruit, and it's never let me down. Always a perfect texture. I never whizz or re-whizz anything.

Next time you make lemon sorbet, try substituting buttermilk for the liquid in your recipe and add some finely chopped tarragon. People go nuts over that stuff.

Another favorite: kiwi/pear/mandarin orange, with oj as the liquid. Leave the seeds in, they're beautiful!

Also, i've been using apple cider as the liquid in almost every sorbet for the last couple weeks, as we had a lot left over from a holiday party. Gives everything a nice kick. I've got a couple gallons of the stuff still - but a few gallons went to the line cooks who added some yeast and put the whole thing in a big lexan behind the ovens last week. Not sure how that's going to come out. Will they get the hard cider they're expecting?

[woodburner]

I make my sorbets in an "old fashioned", though electric, ice-and-rock salt ice cream machine.  I mix the juice and the syrup together and chill, then pour it into the machine, run it for 20 min then scrape out and freeze the sorbet in an airtight container.  It's smooth and creamy and scoopable.  I've made every imaginable flavor including chocolate to great success (at least the plates all came back licked clean and no compaints other than, "what, no more?". 

I do the same thing (4 qt Rival) at work. And I faithfully use a tattered copy of an old Cook's Illustrated chart which adjusts the sugar, lemon juice and liquor amounts according to the sweetness of your main fruit, and it's never let me down. Always a perfect texture. I never whizz or re-whizz anything.

Next time you make lemon sorbet, try substituting buttermilk for the liquid in your recipe and add some finely chopped tarragon. People go nuts over that stuff.

Another favorite: kiwi/pear/mandarin orange, with oj as the liquid. Leave the seeds in, they're beautiful!

Also, i've been using apple cider as the liquid in almost every sorbet for the last couple weeks, as we had a lot left over from a holiday party. Gives everything a nice kick. I've got a couple gallons of the stuff still - but a few gallons went to the line cooks who added some yeast and put the whole thing in a big lexan behind the ovens last week. Not sure how that's going to come out. Will they get the hard cider they're expecting?

These are some terrific ideas from everyone, and I appreciate the responses. I've pledged myself to 100, new to me, food concepts this year.

woodburner

[chiantiglace]

Unofortunately using an ice cream make isn't exactly the "old fashioned way". The classical form is to use a pallet cleanser in which they would freeze it in a solid slap and take a sharpish spoon or other utensil and shave the sorbet. So actually the method woodburner used was closer to the more contemporary useage.

Also if you use buttermilk, and if or not you have eggwhites in the recipe it will not be a sorbet. If there are egg whites then it will have very close properties of that of a gelato. Still tasty but definately not sorbet.

[woodburner]

woke up in a cold sweat last night,

forgot to ask the most important thing.

when making simple syrup is pure cane sugar the right one to use?

you know.. 5 lb supermarket type.

woodburner

[nathanm]

I am interested in making savory (non-dessert) ice creams and sorbets. A number of chefs have done this here and there, but there does not seem to be any systematic approach (that I am aware of anyway) as there is for sweet ice creams and sorbets.

In making a dessert ice cream or sorbet, we have rules of thumb and recipes for how much simple syrup, how much butterfat, how many egg yolks can be used for various ingredients. If you want to be careful you can even measure the sugar level in the fruit with a refractometer to fine tune to this to the ripeness of the fruit. There is some variation in the final results, which suites different chefs. But there is a body of knowledege that says hey, too much sugar and it won't freeze at all. Too little and it is hard as a rock. In the middle is where successful recipes lie.

In particular, when we make an ice cream or sorbet we rely on a number of ingredients to control the texture and body. THis includes various forms of sugar (sucrose, dextrose, invert sugar, corn syrup...) - which lower freezing point and contribute to texture. It also includes fats (butterfat and egg yolk) - at least in ice cream, but not in sorbet. It also includes things like powdered milk, and stabilizer (which is usually a form of gelatine or starch).

The most important problem for a savory ice cream is that you can't use the sugar, or anyway not very much. Some "savory" ice creams and sorbets are nearly as sweet as their dessert counterparts, and achieve the savory label by balancing the sugar with acidity. However, that is NOT what I want to do. I want to make some ice creams and sorbets that are not sweet at all, but still have the creamy texture of their dessert counterparts.

I use a paco-jet and this problem comes in the following form - you can fill the PJ beaker with anything - savory or not. But unless the feezing point is decreased a bit, and there is the right additives, you get a powdered snow, not an ice cream or sorbet. Ferran Adria at El Bulli has taken to serving these frozen powders, which is another fine dish, but it is not ice cream or sorbet.

So, if we can't add sugar, what can we add to get texture of the sort that we expect from a dessert ice cream or sorbet?

I have been using, or have considered:

Cream
Butterfat
Egg yolks & cream (i.e. like creme anglais without sugar)
Egg whites
Stabilizer (commercial ice cream or sorbet stabilizer)
Gelling substances (agar, Micri, pectin, gelatin)

There are other things that could in priniciple work. Salt could, for example, depress freezing point, but by the time there is enough salt to do that, you don't want to eat it. We tolerate a lot of surgar a lot better than we tolerate salt.

A long chain sugar molecule of some sort might have the texture properties of sugar, without being tasted as sugar. Corn syrup is very close to this, but it still is fairly sweet.

Anyway, of the things I have tried, some of them work, and some don't. I don't have enough successes at this point to claim that I have any general methods that work.

I am curious as to whether other people have tried these things, and if there is either any trick I am missing, or anything new I can try...

[chiantiglace]

i love the pacoject, its a great machine.

Whenever i made a savory sorbet i would still use a little bit of sugar. usually and inverted sugar (a lot less sweet). I just made a beat sorbet for the soux chef and used about 10% glucose, came out very well.

[chiantiglace]

pure cane sugar has a lot of impurities, a lot. And has a distinctive flavor.

i would just use your regular granulated/castor sugar.

[Moopheus]

Does it have to be made with the Pacojet? Perhaps making a savory mousse and freezing it might be better. A frozen mousse isn't quite like ice cream, but it might be better than using a lot of stabilizers.

Edited by Moopheus, 06 January 2005 - 09:39 AM.

[nathanm]

Actually, the paco jet requires less stabilizer and less sugar than conventional ice cream / sorbet freezers. In fact, one generally makes ice cream and sorbet with no stabilizer at all in the paco jet.

The issue here is finding the right substitutes for sugar. Sugar is a major factor in the texture of ice cream and sorbet, and if you want to make a savory version you need to use something else.

The issues are actually a lot worse for a conventional machine than for paco jet, but that really does not matter compared to the big question of what to use?

[Steve Klc]

Lots of terms being thrown around here--woodburner--are you taking your mixture and "freezing" in an ice cream machine like you would an ice cream or are you freezing solid in a "freezer," i.e. the freezer of a refrigerator/freezer--like chiantiglace described? In generally-accepted pastry chef and restaurant parlance--one is usually a sorbet and the other is usually a "granite," and as has been described, that solidly frozen block can be scraped, shaved down in various ways and the little shavings held, then served. You can even "whiz" up these ice chunks to get a cool kind of intermediate hybrid--not quite granite, not quite slush, not quite sorbet. Each frozen texture will affect how readily you taste the flavor. And granite is every bit on the cutting edge contemporary food scene--in restaurant use we put gelatin in it so the scraped crystals hold up that much longer to arrive at the table still solid. Granites also have renewed relevance for restaurants and pastry chefs who don't have an ice cream freezer or work in locales with very restrictive food sanitation laws--they can still incorporate some creative frozen elements into their desserts and not have to outsource.

Most sorbet proportions will not work as a granite--they'll be too soft. Granites--and mixtures designed to be frozen like granites--meaning not spun in an ice cream freezer--need to be less sweet than a "sorbet." There's whizzing in a Cuisinart blender to break up your icy crystals then there might be whizzing in a Cuisinart ice cream machine to kind of texturize and soften/warm up a mixture which doesn't have the right sugar percentage to merely be frozen once--and then set up but stay soft when held in the freezer.

With lemon I doubt you'd be able to discern the difference between which white sugar you used in the syrup, and depending on which brand you are using and which part of the country you are in pure cane is regular granulated sugar . With granite you often don't need to use syrup so don't sweat it--the sugar amount is so small to given amount of liquid it'll just dissolve without needing the heating step to get it to dissolve.

Woodburner--you could do 100 new frozen/semi-frozen tastes, applications and concepts in the coming year alone.