11 replies to this topic

[vserna]

From The Guardian in London, in today's edition:

Cuisine goes back to college

Jon Henley in Paris
Wednesday October 15, 2003
The Guardian

Alarmed by a waning of France's global prestige in all things culinary, the government is to establish a university of gastronomy.

"Haute cuisine these days is international: you can find great chefs and wine experts everywhere," Renaud Dutreuil, minister for consumer affairs and traditional businesses, told Le Parisien yesterday - acknowledging that, as gourmet tastes become ever more adventurous, many critics now say classic French cooking is crushed by tradition, and that better food can be eaten in Brussels, New York or even London.

"France has to impose itself more visibly as the country of reference for taste," the minister said. "This university, the first of its kind in the world, will aim to do precisely that. It will become a sort of Harvard of taste."

It opens next September at Reims in the Champagne country, and will accept 100 students - "French restaurateurs who hope to improve themselves, Americans in the food-processing business, great chefs from, say, Denmark or Japan" - for training in "arts of the table and French culinary history". Tutors would be historians, sociologists, chefs, biologists, and "great professionals in the trades of taste," the minister said. There would be offshoots for regional gastronomy and viticulture.

"France is renowned for its cuisine, but it lacks a training tool to spread this knowledge across the world," Mr Dutreuil told the paper. "We need ambassadors who will represent our culinary heritage."

[eliotmorgan]

"This university, the first of its kind in the world, will aim to do precisely that. It will become a sort of Harvard of taste."

The Harvard of Taste? LOL!

He seems to have said it without the slightest hint of irony. You’d think a French Minister would allude to "the Sorbonne of taste."

[Dave the Cook]

It takes some between-the-lines reading, but it's apparent to me that this is a response to the growing scholastic hegemony of The eGullet Culinary Institute.

[robert brown]

Japan sends over their better chefs and we send over guys from Kraft, General Foods and Swanson. Nice going, Renaud. Did Chirac write his lines? Last I knew, France was replete with culinary trade schools. But why do they need to start something to spread the so-called Gospel to foreigners when the problem is that France needs to reinvigorate its own domestic gastronomic life?

[edm]

France doesnt need to "reinvigorate its own domestic gastronomic life".
Maybe americans and other entertainment addicts should take care of their own backyard. Or keep playing with their latest discovery, Spain.
Then why should we care about that article and that sudden interest from
Renaud Dutreuil ? The French dont, so why should foreigners ? Hey, Renaud, if you're an egulletee, we already have ambassadors spread around the world : French chefs ! OK, they sure have a big mouth (which is rearely seen as a good thing in North America...), but they know what they're doing.
I surely sound aggressive, but i'm sick and tired of listening and reading that
much bullshit about France. I think there's alot of young chefs doing a pretty good job. I think the wine industry is moving towards the better. New faces, old techniques and cepages rediscovered, new AOCs rewarding efforts... Overall, care, respect, knowledge and passion. And yes, indeed, creativity.
As long as those values will be cherished and shared, and even though i'm far away from it, i wont worry about my own country.
NB : As long as the yanks will be piling shit on a plate and calling it 3 michelin star,
i wont be listening.

Edited by edm, 15 October 2003 - 10:58 PM.

[eliotmorgan]

France doesnt need to "reinvigorate its own domestic gastronomic life".
Maybe americans and other entertainment addicts should take care of their own backyard. Or keep playing with their latest discovery, Spain.
-------------
As long as the yanks will be piling shit on a plate and calling it 3 michelin star,
i wont be listening.

France has become a sort of culinary museum. If you travel you certainly must know this. Your comment about Spain borders on the hysterical. Robert Brown can defend himself, but I agree with his central point: France has lost it culinary centrality. Of course there are many French chefs doing exceptional work. That said they are not alone. I have a great respect for the old ways, and they are the foundation of any decent culinary education here, but French chefs have a lot to learn from American and Spanish chefs. We have a lot to learn from each other. The best chefs in France readily admit this. Your panties are in bunch. Rethink your rant and resubmit.

Edited by eliotmorgan, 16 October 2003 - 01:26 AM.

[edm]

i will not rethink my "rant".
France has a lot to learn from americans and spanish chefs...
Maybe a little bit. But a LOT ?
I'm here, in North America, and i dont see anyone whom i can learn from, at least around Vancouver. And the only person i've learned from happens to be an english chef who trained in France.
Dont take it as arrogance. Every country, every person has its specialties, its interests, its History.
French chefs dont claim to be the best in the world.
French chefs have long ago acknowledged that there's good food outside France. We're surrounded by countries with strong culinary History ! How could it be otherwise ? (by the way, centuries of wars and invasions sure helped influence each other's approach to food, and thanks to the Romans for the wine !...)
Unlike others, we do not feel the need to compare ourselves with anybody else, and never think in terms of being the best this or best that. We know how to cook, how to make cheese, pastry, bread, wine, champagne, calvados, cognac...... And we dont need no approval or praise or support from abroad.
Our panties are in bunch !
Such arrogance, pay due respect to the French for teaching you anglo-saxons how to move on from countryside cuisine. Let's think of the influence of French cuisine and French chefs in the UK and the US during the past 30 years.
And for all the stubborn people on egullet, please read some posts from spanish chefs. They still train in France, as true as Arzak was strongly influenced by Guerard a couple of decades ago.
Of course, we have to learn from each other. And you can tell the French learned from the americans:
there's some shitty fusion food in Paris !
And if France is such a static and dusty culinary museum, well... just plan your next vacation in Disneyland. They have decent burgers down there.
Leave us alone.

Edited by edm, 16 October 2003 - 09:00 AM.

[NeroW]

I'm here, in North America, and i dont see anyone whom i can learn from, at least around Vancouver.

If you don't mind my saying so, that sounds like a personal problem.

[tighe]

i will not rethink my "rant".
France has a lot to learn from americans and spanish chefs...
Maybe a little bit. But a LOT ?
I'm here, in North America, and i dont see anyone whom i can learn from, at least around Vancouver. And the only person i've learned from happens to be an english chef who trained in France.
Dont take it as arrogance. Every country, every person has its specialties, its interests, its History.
French chefs dont claim to be the best in the world.
French chefs have long ago acknowledged that there's good food outside France. We're surrounded by countries with strong culinary History ! How could it be otherwise ? (by the way, centuries of wars and invasions sure helped influence each other's approach to food, and thanks to the Romans for the wine !...)
Unlike others, we do not feel the need to compare ourselves with anybody else, and never think in terms of being the best this or best that. We know how to cook, how to make cheese, pastry, bread, wine, champagne, calvados, cognac...... And we dont need no approval or praise or support from abroad.
Our panties are in bunch !
Such arrogance, pay due respect to the French for teaching you anglo-saxons how to move on from countryside cuisine. Let's think of the influence of French cuisine and French chefs in the UK and the US during the past 30 years.
And for all the stubborn people on egullet, please read some posts from spanish chefs. They still train in France, as true as Arzak was strongly influenced by Guerard a couple of decades ago.
Of course, we have to learn from each other. And you can tell the French learned from the americans:
there's some shitty fusion food in Paris !
And if France is such a static and dusty culinary museum, well... just plan your next vacation in Disneyland. They have decent burgers down there.
Leave us alone.

I have to say reading this, I couldn't help but hear it being read in the voice/style of the French knight in Monty Python's The Holy Grail.

"I empteee my nuse at yuuu, yuu stuupeed Engleesh k-nig-its. I fahht in your gen-e-ral di-recsheeeon!"



One's ability to learn from others typically has a lot more to do with you than it does with the others. In the kitchen and in life, virtually everyone has something valuable to teach us. I'm not going to try to convince you of this, you're young enough to still think you have it all figured out. Check back in 10 years, if you feel the same way then you're just arrogant.

You also may want to think about making a consistent argument. On one hand you acknowledge that there are things that French chefs could learn from the US culinary scene, but then you imply that the only thing American influence has accomplished is the creation of "shitty fusion food in Paris." Which is it?

I love France and French food, in all its permutations. The one thing we might agree on is that the direction of its evolution, or whether it evolves, shouldn't be solely dictated by forces outside of France.

Edited by tighe, 17 October 2003 - 08:42 AM.

[edm]

[edm]

I'm here, in North America, and i dont see anyone whom i can learn from, at least around Vancouver.

If you don't mind my saying so, that sounds like a personal problem.

It sure is, but it might also say something about the level of food in the third biggest city of canada.

Edited by edm, 17 October 2003 - 02:18 AM.

[Bux]

On one hand you acknowledge that there are things that French chefs could learn from the US culinary scene, but then you imply that the only thing American influence has accomplished is the creation of "shitty fusion food in Paris."  Which is it?

I think this is part of a problem I've found that is not uncommon in France. There's a willingness to say one is broadminded, but in reality too many French chefs are unable to overcome their defensive attitudes about France's place in the history of cuisine. I've had too many discussions with young chefs who equate McDonald's with American taste while at the same time, failing to admit that although Americans created McDo, the French consumer is eating the concept with gusto. Recently I was in Arpege where I heard more English spoken than French. Loiseau, years ago, admitted that foreign tourism was what was keeping haute cuisine alive in France. Attention to good food is on the rise in the US and other English speaking countries. It has been in decline for decades in France, although I sense a revival there.

The point I'd make is that chauvinism is out of date in today's culinary world. Vserna has eloquently stated the influnece French chefs have on not only Arzak, but most of the other great chefs of his, and the next, generation of Spanish chefs here on eGullet, but it's just as obvious that today, young and established chefs in France and America are talking about the restaurants in Spain more and more.

That American chefs and Spanish chefs have been able to learn from the French and that the French can only create "shitty fusion food in Paris" would be proof of the culinary vitality in France, but it's really not very true. L'Astrance is a very good example of why it's not true.

I think edm correctly described his post as a rant. It was emotional and undocumented and probably defensive about the wrong things. I have long been a champion of French food, French cooking and above all French culinary training and discipline. It was not long ago that I would said that all the really great restaurants in the US had French chefs and that all the good ones were run by chefs that had training in France. Even Alice Waters based her restaurants on what she'd observed in France. I'd still advise a young cook in the states to travel, eat and, if possible, train in France and Spain, but times are changing and we're developing our own standards.

There are many reasons why Spanish cuisine is so interesting right now and so influential and none of them have anything to do with the establishment of an academic institution. It has to do with the dynamic atmospere that now exists in Spain.

I will also point out that whle Arpege gets 300 euros for its tasting menu and the cheapest wines on the list run about 80 euros, the top restaurants in and around San Sebastian have gastronomic menus that run aroung 100 euros and sommeliers have no problem recommending wines at 30 euros. Haut cuisine is inaccessible to most people in France and this is helping the disconnect between French citizens and gastronomy.

I think the rest of the world has paid due respect to French cuisine over the ages and continue to do so by evolving. It's the French who are least interested in paying hommage to the tradition and substance of French cuisine, while defending the form. Don't get me wrong. France is not a disaster area in terms of food and eating, but it will continue to decline wherever it establishes a defensive attitude.