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Another question about canneles


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#1 aprilmei

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 07:41 AM

I've been baking a lot of canneles lately and have tried three recipes in the past week (Paula Wolfert's from the last cannele thread), Herme's from La Patisserie de Pierre Herme, and Bau's chocolate canneles. The only other recipe I tried previously (Nancy Silverton's) were baked in a silicon sheet of petits four size canneles. I've been trying out this week's recipes in full-size cannele molds made of tin (I think). I gave the molds an initial wash, dried them in the oven, and seasoned them by brushing thoroughly with melted Crisco and heating them in the oven for an hour. I then poured out the excess fat and inverted the molds and let them continue to season in the oven for about 15 minutes. Before baking, I brushed the molds again with melted Crisco then chilled them in the freezer before pouring in the rested batter. They were all baked in a convection oven.
After the canneles were baked, I could not get them out of the molds - they were stuck in places. Once I was finally able to pry them out of the molds, they tasted fine and were not underbaked in the centre but of course they didn't look good. After I baked each recipe, I had to soak the molds in hot water to soften the parts that had stuck, then re-washed and re-seasoned them.
Can anybody please tell me what I'm doing wrong? Am I using the wrong fat? Should I switch to a regular oil instead of Crisco? I know the last thread recommended beeswax along with the fat, but I thought the beeswax was to give the canneles a better crust, not to facilitate their removal from the molds?
Or is it the metal? I know that copper is the traditional metal for cannele molds - I'm using tin, is that why the canneles are sticking? The traditional molds - are they tin-lined copper or pure copper?
I'm also having the same problem Nightscotsman had - the canneles keep rising up out of the molds. You'd think that if they're able to do that, they wouldn't be stuck at the edges, but they are.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Edited by aprilmei, 28 September 2003 - 07:58 AM.


#2 Wolfert

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 07:55 AM

I've never made canneles in a tin mold but I am sure that is one of the reasons your cakes are not easily dropping out after an initial banging on the crown against some very hard surface. With copper you get the quick hot to cold reaction which helps release the cannele.

Bee's wax mixed with melted butter and some tasteless oil until it becomes a thick cream is the way to go. You will never have a failure.

Don't worry about the canneles popping out of the molds they will while still in the oven fall back into place and actually shink a tiny bit. This is correct. The creamy custard filling needs a full 2 hours in a regular oven and 1 1/4 hours in a convection oven.

There is a silicone mold available at fred bridge (check my website recipe for the order number) you still need the bee's wax but it works quite well.

Hope this helps.

Paula
“C’est dans les vieux pots, qu’on fait la bonne soupe!”, or ‘it is in old pots that good soup is made’.

#3 rickster

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 08:13 AM

Wll, I've got to admit I'm having the same problem as aprilmei. I'm using Paula's recipe (which tastes delicious), 10 seasoned tin lined copper molds from JB Prince, greasing them with a mixture of beeswax and canola oil, baking them in a convection oven for the required amount of time, and they're still sticking, every single one. They are generally sticking at the "shoulder " of the molds. Am I not using enough grease at the bottom? Currently, it's bubbling up and out of the molds and onto the baking sheet.

#4 Wolfert

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 08:20 AM

Hi Rickster:

I really want to empasize how important it is to grasp the baked cannele in your mitted hand and bang it crown side down onto a really hard surface then it should just come out. Have you tried using a bamboo skewer to loosen them?

Are the molds relatively clean inside? You can put the seasoned cannele molds into a moderate oven for an hour then rub off the hardened debris.

Other thoughts: bubbling over doesn't sound right. Bubbling up is ok.

I'm wondering if you should grease the molds, turn them over, place them on a rack over a baking sheet, slip them into a medium oven for 5 minutes, let them drain before setting them in the freezer. This process removes excess beeswax coating. You only need the a thin veil of bee's wax.

Please let me know if you still have problems.

Edited by Wolfert, 28 September 2003 - 08:56 AM.

“C’est dans les vieux pots, qu’on fait la bonne soupe!”, or ‘it is in old pots that good soup is made’.

#5 rickster

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 08:48 AM

Tried the skewer (metal), didn't work. I'm probably not banging them hard enough for sure. The wax bubbling over is a result of putting an extra thick coating inside in response to the first failure to get them out.

Thanks for your advice, I'll try them again.

#6 aprilmei

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 09:43 AM

Hi Paula, thanks for your advice.
You're right that the canneles settle back down into the molds but they don't do it quickly enough and the colour isn't even on the parts that aren't coming in contact with any metal. The tops are pale - not just the fluted edges, but the centre as well. I tried putting them under the broiler as you advised in the last thread but it only browned the edges.
Also, do the copper molds come in both copper and tin-lined copper? Rickster mentions that his are tin-lined but from looking at websites, it also seems that pure copper molds are also available (at least the picture makes them look like they're pure copper). Is there an advantage of one over the other?

#7 Wolfert

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 10:09 AM

I have tin lined copper which I purchased from www.culinarion.com when the euro was not as strong as it is right now.

If you go back to my recipe on the website you can find the silicone molds style number, etc . To tell you the truth the aluminum ones should be used for storing thumbtacks or making aspic appetizers. I'm sorry to tell you but I've never met anyone who has had luck with the aluminum ones using a proper recipe.
“C’est dans les vieux pots, qu’on fait la bonne soupe!”, or ‘it is in old pots that good soup is made’.

#8 aprilmei

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 10:20 PM

Hi Paula,

thanks for this info - will order the copper molds as you advised, and also some beeswax (these products aren't available anywhere in Hong Kong). I checked culinarion.com and the molds are 9 euros each, JB Prince sells them for US$8.20 and meilleurduchef.com seems the least expensive at 7.34 euros minus 19.6 per cent for orders out of the EU.

#9 aprilmei

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 10:30 PM

Just checked bridgekitchenware.com - they sell the molds for $16.95!!! Ouch!

#10 Wolfert

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Posted 29 September 2003 - 03:37 AM

check with culinarion about the eu discount. I think it will end up being competitive with mdc. Be sure to get the largest size. JP Prince's cannele molds are a wee big fatter than the ones from Culinarion. Please don't ask me why. If the reduced eu price is the same between meilleur du chef and culinarion. I'd go for the latter since they are sleeker when baked.
Fred Bridge also sells the rubberized sheets for about $16 so you can make 8 canneles. It works well.
“C’est dans les vieux pots, qu’on fait la bonne soupe!”, or ‘it is in old pots that good soup is made’.

#11 aprilmei

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Posted 29 September 2003 - 06:54 AM

Okay Paula, I'm temporarily giving up the search for the best cannele recipe - will wait until I get the right copper molds and some beeswax. Thanks for the advice.

btw, loved your recipe - they're not too sweet. Noticed that your batter was looser than the others, especially compared to Bau's chocolate recipe which was fairly thick.

#12 Louisa Chu

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 07:26 AM

I asked our cannele expert at the Plaza Athenee about the cannele problems and here's what he offered. If using flexipans, beeswax is not needed - it's for unmolding only, not the crust. If using metal molds - he says they don't need to be copper - they should be hot, so the beeswax does not block too quickly - then two thin layers applied. All batter ingredient temperatures should be respected carefully - and the batter should not be overworked - that's what typically causes them to rise up too much. And the molds should be well spaced - 10, max 12 to a baking sheet - to allow thorough baking. And unmold hot.

Hope this helps!

#13 Wolfert

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 08:40 AM

Loufood: Your comments via the French chef were very interesting.

I asked our cannele expert at the Plaza Athenee about the cannele problems and here's what he offered. If using flexipans, beeswax is not needed - it's for unmolding only, not the crust.


Up until I tried SweetWilliam's version in an earlier forum I would have agreed with your expert. A thin brushing of the "white oil" gives the flexipan baked cannele a fabulous crust. By the way, I tried 3 different flexipans and only the one SweetWilliam suggested made good cannele..(the one from Bridges).

If using metal molds - he says they don't need to be copper - they should be hot, so the beeswax does not block too quickly - then two thin layers applied.


There are many ways to make canneles and get great results. I am not familiar with adding white oil (beeswax melted with butter and oil) to hot molds. I brush room temperature molds with the white oil, turn them upside down on a rack over a foil lined sheet, slip them into a warm oven for a few minutes to remove excess oil, cool and set in the freezer untl ready to bake.


All batter ingredient temperatures should be respected carefully - and the batter should not be overworked - that's what typically causes them to rise up too much.


Right about not overworking the batter. Actually, canneles are at that best when the batter has rested 2 days.

And the molds should be well spaced - 10, max 12 to a baking sheet - to allow thorough baking. And unmold hot.

Now this I agree with 100 %


Aprilme: the copper molds are lined with tin. To remove debris put them in a hot oven and let it burn off. Don't ever wash them after the first seasoning..Oh, maybe once a year. The more you use your seasoned molds the easier they come out.
“C’est dans les vieux pots, qu’on fait la bonne soupe!”, or ‘it is in old pots that good soup is made’.

#14 MsRamsey

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 09:37 AM

Paula, I can't find the cannele recipe on your website. Please help?
"Save Donald Duck and Fuck Wolfgang Puck."
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how the bill to ban production of foie gras in
California was summarized for signing by
Gov. Schwarzenegger.

#15 Wolfert

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 09:42 AM

I had put the recipe up for the readers of the original cannele forum on egullet. Now that the book has been released, my publishers gently suggested I remove it from the site.


check your email: I sent you the recipe.
“C’est dans les vieux pots, qu’on fait la bonne soupe!”, or ‘it is in old pots that good soup is made’.

#16 kitwilliams

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 11:24 AM

Loufood: Your comments via the French chef were very interesting.

I asked our cannele expert at the Plaza Athenee about the cannele problems and here's what he offered. If using flexipans, beeswax is not needed - it's for unmolding only, not the crust.


Up until I tried SweetWilliam's version in an earlier forum I would have agreed with your expert. A thin brushing of the "white oil" gives the flexipan baked cannele a fabulous crust. By the way, I tried 3 different flexipans and only the one SweetWilliam suggested made good cannele..(the one from Bridges).

I am in total agreement with Paula on this: the beeswax DOES make a difference in the crust of the canneles when using the flexipans, in both texture and glossy finish. They are a beautiful sight to behold. Wish I had a scanner, as a photographer friend of mine took some terrific photos of a batch I made this summer. And Paula's recipe is, by far, the best I've tried. The contrast between the exterior/interior, crusty to custardy, is awesome and, I'm sure (as I've never had canneles in France), as close to the original as I can imagine. Although I must get a larger food processor as I can't bear to make small batches of them!

kit
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#17 Louisa Chu

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 11:41 AM

Paula, they were the chef's comments - just via me! I've not made them yet - I've just eaten them here in France!

#18 Wolfert

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 11:46 AM

Kim: thanks for the compliment. I really am proud of the canneles and as you know no one makes a recipe like that alone. You were very helpful with that little tip and I want to thank you again.
By the way, when I double I just mix the butter, flour and sugar in a mixing bowl, add the eggs, etc. The fine strainer does the real work. Let me know what you think.

Loufood: I've had canneles in Paris and in Bordeaux. Except for poujardin (spelling is off) I don't think there is a great cannele in Paris. The secret which I learned from a Bordeaux Patissier and president of the confrerie de patissiers is in the mixing of butter with the flour NOT adding the butter to the milk..
“C’est dans les vieux pots, qu’on fait la bonne soupe!”, or ‘it is in old pots that good soup is made’.

#19 kitwilliams

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 01:15 PM

Kim: thanks for the compliment. I really am proud of the canneles and as you know no one makes a recipe like that alone. You were very helpful with that little tip and I want to thank you again.
By the way, when I double I just mix the butter, flour and sugar in a mixing bowl, add the eggs, etc.  The fine strainer does the real work. Let me know what you think.

Paula: You are welcome for that little tip! I can't take much credit as I simply couldn't afford to buy the copper, happened to be in New York where Bridge was on the top of my list of tourist destinations and, fortunately, they had the best silicon molds!

And thanks back at ya for the tip on doubling the recipe. I think I'll give it a whirl right now! Except for the fact that I am engrossed in a fabulous new cookbook, The Slow Mediterranean Kitchen. Have you heard of it? :wink: :biggrin:

Edited by kitwilliams, 09 October 2003 - 01:17 PM.

kit

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#20 Wolfert

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 01:55 PM

I would ask you repeat that last line but I'm blushing..Thank you.


Aren't the photos beautiful? Christopher Hirsheimer did the photography. She (yes, Christopher is a she) did all the major work for Saveur Magazine.
“C’est dans les vieux pots, qu’on fait la bonne soupe!”, or ‘it is in old pots that good soup is made’.

#21 cookman

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Posted 24 October 2003 - 07:04 PM

Although it may sound like heresy, why not use a cooking spray like Pam instead of the beeswax/oil to line these molds? Professional chefs do use Pam in the pastry kitchen.

#22 nightscotsman

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Posted 25 October 2003 - 08:12 AM

Although it may sound like heresy, why not use a cooking spray like Pam instead of the beeswax/oil to line these molds? Professional chefs do use Pam in the pastry kitchen.

I've actually tried a lecithin-based coating, and I think it actually worked too well. The canneles actually need to stick just a little bit as they bake so they can "walk" up the sides of the pan. The non-stick coating was making my original problem of the cakes pushing themselves up and out of the mold much worse. Also the bee's wax gives a much nicer crust - dark and glossy without being greasy. Maybe you could try adding a little bit of lecithin to the oil/wax mixture and get the best of both worlds?

#23 aprilmei

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 06:45 AM

I finally have the copper molds and the beeswax so over the weekend I made double batches (enough for 24 each) of plain canneles AND Bau's chocolate canneles. Actually, I just made the mixes and baked six of each. I forgot to take into consideration that it takes at least an hour to bake each batch (I have 12 molds) so it's going to take a loooonnnnngggg time to bake the remainder. I think I'll take Paula's advice and freeze them.

BUT, the canneles turned out beautifully. They rose just a little out of the molds and also stuck just a little, but I was able to pry them out without disfiguring them. The crusts on both types are lovely, really delicately crisp. The chocolate canneles are gorgeous - they look just like the photograph. Although I must say I prefer the plain ones.

#24 FoodMan

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 10:14 AM

Ok, so I’ve never had a Cannelle before but this thread that started a while back made want to give them a try. I used Wolfert’s recipe and since I have not invested in molds yet I used my ramekins. I rested the batter for 48 hrs. and chilled the ramekins for a couple of hours. I used a mixture of Crisco and light olive oil to grease the ramekins with the thinnest film possible. The cannelles baked wonderfully (as far as my limited experience tells me) and two out of the four I made (I halved the recipe) made it out of the mold in good condition. They also tasted great, sort of like a lightly burned sugar crust on the outside and soft and kind of creamy on the inside. I took two pictures of the finished pastries and the second one was supposed to show the texture of the interior but it came out a little fuzzy.

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#25 Wolfert

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 08:45 AM

foodman:
Carolyn Tille tested the recipe using the silicone molds and the photos she sent me looked really crispy and crunchy with the custardy interior. I suggest you try them since they are relatively cheap.
On the other hand, the nordic mini bundt moldsdon't need beeswax, bake in a shorter time and provide plenty of that crunch to cream ratio that makes the cannele so special.
“C’est dans les vieux pots, qu’on fait la bonne soupe!”, or ‘it is in old pots that good soup is made’.

#26 Klau

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 04:29 PM

I had put the recipe up for the readers of the original cannele forum on egullet. Now that the book has been released, my publishers gently suggested I remove it from the site.


check your email: I sent you the recipe.

Hi Paula,

Would you mind posting your cannele recipe once more for those of us who missed it?

Is there a cookbook more recent than The Slow Mediterranean Kitchen to which you refer?

I've noted that the copper molds available for sale come in various sizes. What size are the cannele molds used in Bordeaux?

#27 tomjohn

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 11:15 PM

I made four batches of Cannelles last Christmas,
the recipe I used said to thickly coat the moulds in (unsalted?)Butter and chill..
I put the pan in the freezer for 10 minutes and filled the moulds up 2/3
I just found a Nordic Ware Bunt Brownie Muffin tin that looks really promising