399 replies to this topic

[KaffirLime]

There are always two sides to every story and I rather expected something like D E-M's response. No offence to David Goodfellow but his review read like a bit of a' toys-out-of-the-cot' diatribe and just didn't ring true to me.

[david goodfellow]

Ah, the chef strikes back.

Perhaps if you employed staff who were easily understood, it would not be necessary to ask them repeatedly to explain themselves, or record them for that matter.
They also need to get a grip on their attitude. They work in the hospitality industry.

Is it difficult to employ decent staff in Cheltenham?
Furthermore the lack of warmth in your restaurant is down to the very same staff. Sullen, unfriendly, a total lack of sincerity is evident. It was noticeable as soon as we walked in. Of course you don't see this as your busy in the kitchen.
Is it just on a Saturday lunch they don't want to be there?

Regarding "much bigger places" Total rubbish. I never said that. Other places, yes!

Staff again. Whilst I settled the bill with your wife, your TWO waitresses stood right next to the coat stand, doing exactly NOTHING. My wife could have reached for her own coat.
Yes we were both desperate to leave.

The food? Well, I have praised your cooking on numerous occasion's, and like all chefs you are more than happy to accept it.
Woe betide though if any criticism is offered. You don't want to hear it, do you?

I detest bad service, especially when it involves eating out at expensive restaurant's, and will report it whether it be a burger joint or a Michelin starred place.

Your restaurant seems lost in a time warp.

In my opinion, it is way below the standard of The Ledbury and Midsummer House both true destination restaurants, and well worthy of their ratings.

Edited by david goodfellow, 20 June 2012 - 02:51 AM.

[Scottf]

Is it common for you to record dish desciptions David and have you been refused elsewhere?

Be interesting to cross reference against any other negative posts

[RDB]

Of course there are two sides to a story, and good to have the other side to this review, seems to make much more sense now. A distortion between grandiose sense of self and non-compliance to engage in being recorded seems to have resulted in the proverbial toys being catapulted. Maybe some restaurants need to use Marco's old technique of clearing tables for such behaviour.

The point you make " Perhaps if you employed staff who were easily understood" is a somewhat bizarre and strange dining request? So how do you know if the person employed will be understood by every diner? Maybe being understood is more to do with the listener than the speaker? Why did you need to record them was it to take it to a translator to decipher the complex words being spoken.

So I now have your answer to the criteria you established for LCS not desrving two Michelin stars!

[tony h]

I take it someone didn’t get their bran that morning and to be honest to say something like “perhaps if you employed staff who were easily understood” frankly sounds like something only a bigot would say. Not liking food is one thing but your comments make it personal. poor show.
We’ve always found David & Helen’s “little helpers” to be nothing but warm and friendly. And we are very naughty because we try & make them laugh when they trying the damnedest to stay professional.
I’ve been coming regularly 2 or 3 times a year for something like 8 or 9 years – I’d come more often but I live in London. During that time his cooking has constantly evolved (I still vividly remember basil mojito sorbet from a couple of years ago - wow) and a recent visit earlier this month was nothing short of spectacular. On Friday & Saturday LeCS now offer a tasting menu. For those of us who’ve become jaded by tasting menu’s I truly recommend trying this one to remind you just how wonderful a tasting menu can be.
However, you are right about one thing – the food here is no longer 2*- it’s 3*!
Anyway – enough of this nonsense. Let’s celebrate the fact that the follow-up to Essence, appropriately named Essence II, will be in the shops in time for xmas. Can’t wait!

Edited by tony h, 21 June 2012 - 01:18 AM.

[Man]

I too appreciated The Greek's answer, which was admirably more gracious and measured than that of other chefs when criticised (David is right that for many chefs customer is king and competent till he praises, and only becomes an incompetent ignoramus when he turns critical: which is it? Do customers understand or do only professionals understand?). I especially liked The Greek's opening "I generally don`t like to interfere with people`s opinions of my restaurant as it is all a subjective opinion." His was a response that somehow made me want to try his restaurant, while the responses of others in the past had definitely put me off.

If I had to guess what happened...it is possible that, like at many restaurants with husband&wife at their core (I have especially in mind a starred one near home here in Fife, but I've seen several), service while generally charming is just a little less supple and professional, and a bit more 'emotional', than in, say, a well-oiled and hard-nosed metropolitan operation. Just possible. So that they react to unusal requests and customers' quirks with less panache than others.

That said, I really think (I've always shown sympathy to David on this forum so I say this without malice) it tarnishes the reputation of bloggers and of picture-taking food lovers in general to let our 'reviewing' (the use of the word 'review' for a few mangled comments seems excessive to me) activities interfere with service, be it by asking people to hold still with trays, bottles, etc. in their hands for more than the briefest of instants or recording their descriptions or moving around holding a camera. I find that intrusive and impolite. The civilised thing to do is to be as discreet as possible, and just photograph what happens in 'real time' with no fuss at all, having as a firm priority the avoidance of any disturbance to other (reasonable) people, customers or staff, rather than the quality or quantity of the pictures. While I'm at it, I also think one should not take recognisable pictures of other customers.

The moral of this interesting story for me is that reasonable people will always live well together. As Chef The Greek says, he's not bothered by the act of taking pictures in itself (he's even flattered): that's a positive, reasonable attitude. A fight signals unreasonable behaviour somewhere. It's only when you have unreasonable intrusiveness on one side or unreasonable intolerance on the side of customers or staff, or both, that tthings go awry.

[Harters]

I also think one should not take recognisable pictures of other customers.

I'm not into taking photographs when my partner & I eat out - but I usually enjoy seeing other people's efforts (except if they are inconsiderate enough to use flash while taking the piccies). That said, I entirely agree with you, Man, about photos of other customers. It seems intrusive to me - one can never know who the customer is, who they are dining with and why.

[Tastymorsel]

Frankly, I am surprised this merits debate. David Goodfellow and wifes experience was clearly not up to the standard of a two star michelin experience.
I accept that it would have been better had he mentioned to the restaurant on booking that he would be taking photos and recording dish descriptions however I would suggest that even without prior warning most two star michelin restaurants would have taken this in their stride.
There is simply no excuse for making faces at diners which shows a total lack of respect for the paying customer and reflects badly on the restaurant as a whole.
I have encountered language issues with staff in the past and there is absolutely no doubt this can adversely affect the overall experience. It's fundamental that guests clearly understand what it is they are eating and if this isn't the case something has to be done. Sometimes I wonder whether restaurants actually listen to the candidates at interview or just hire by CV.

Edited by Tastymorsel, 21 June 2012 - 03:24 AM.

[thampik]

thanks, tony h - I did not know that a "Essence II" was coming out, but will certainly be buying it. I own and frequently cook from David's earlier two books which are both quite fantastic. and highly original.

[Tastymorsel]

tony h - Instead of attacking a fellow diner perhaps perhaps you could tackle the issue and not concentrate on pedantics.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

....I have encountered language issues with staff in the past and there is absolutely no doubt this can adversely affect the overall experience. It's fundamental that guests clearly understand what it is they are eating and if this isn't the case something has to be done....

Much of my dining out takes place in France where more frequently than not the server has trouble making ingredients perfectly clear. Regardless, I find delight in a plate at face value. It boils down to whether one is dining for enjoyment or for publication.

[Harters]

in France where more frequently than not the server has trouble making ingredients perfectly clear.

In the parts of France to which I tend to travel, it's because the staff only speak French and my French is pretty much limited to what I was taught at school some 45 years ago. "La plume de ma tante" isn't a great deal of help when I don't understand which fish is on the menu.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

in France where more frequently than not the server has trouble making ingredients perfectly clear.

In the parts of France to which I tend to travel, it's because the staff only speak French and my French is pretty much limited to what I was taught at school some 45 years ago. "La plume de ma tante" isn't a great deal of help when I don't understand which fish is on the menu.

Indeed. However, I find that ingredients or techniques given in French are much more understandable than some English translations! :)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I think what is striking me as off-key is the lack of a relationship with the server. Even when we don't have a common language, we always try to establish a working relationship with restaurant staff. It is part of our enjoyment of the meal. The server is, after all, our conduit to the kitchen. We question specific herbs or flavors or techniques, and find that servers are universally interested in trying to explain or find answers, even when language is a barrier. I can't imagine duplicating this relationship with a recorder.

[RDB]

David, (if you are still there) when you came to Red Chilli in Manchester did you complain to management about the servers being hard to understand? Do you think like you stated about LCS that the staff should have been "English"? Or is it because Red Chilli is not a Michelin Star restaurant then communication faux pas's are acceptable?

Think your views would help develop the debate?

[KaffirLime]

In the last ten years I have visited Le Champgnon Sauvage several times and never experienced anything like the level of problems described. On one occasion we visited with friends and their young son who was deeply into the 'Thomas the Tank Engine' phase of his life. We arrived for lunch and said son promptly set up his entire train collection on the table which he proceeded to play with for the duration of the meal. Helen and her team took this totally in their stride and served food around the engines and rolling stock. There were no complaints from either party or indeed any other diners because he occupied himself with his trains without causing annoyance to anyone else or disrupting the rhythm of service. We had also shown the courtesy of telling the restaurant that one of our party would be a three year old and David, without being asked, had kindly cooked specific courses for him. This is entirely typical of the level of superb service that David and Helen give to their customers.

On two occasions I have also written reviews of Le Champignon Sauvage, and each time the reviews have been over 2000 words with absolutely perfect recall of every dish mentioned. The way I have achieved this is not by rolling in with the equivalent of a small television production unit but by the simple expedient of asking Helen for a copy of the menu afterwards and taking any notes of any amuses or extra courses whilst having an after dinner drink. On one occasion I even phoned about a week later to confirm details and they could still recall everything we had eaten. Simple and fuss free.

For the last five years I have also worked as a restaurant inspector for an organistion (not Michelin) and have visited hundreds of restaurants in that capacity. In these instances it is obviously imperative to maintain as low a profile as possible without drawing undue attention to oneself. Even so the level of detail I am expected to report on is frightening in its complexity and extends to over 30 pages. In these instances I cannot avoid taking equipment in with me - Notably a brain or more specifically the memory function but I do avail myself of the note taking facility on a Blackberry. I may look like an ignoramus who can't stop texting during a meal but it gets the job done.

If I am reviewing somewhere I never lose sight of the fact that I am doing so for my pleasure or business and not (usually) at the express request restaurant Under such circumstances it is beholden to me to do whatever I need to do with minimum disturbance to the restaurant, it's waiting staff or other diners. This, at least to me is the correct approach. Anything else would be bombastic, arrogant, of far too much self-import and quite frankly distasteful. Some people clearly don't agree with me but then I have no idea what their own attitude in a dining room is like.

[offcentre]

Thanks for the review David - always appreciate reading your reviews and the lovely pictures. There's a distinct lack of reports of your quality and substance on the UK Dining board these days...please don't be put off as I for one would miss them, and egullet would be the poorer without them.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong at all in posting a report that may or may not include an emotional response to any aspect of the restaurant visit. Blogging is not inspecting.

[erica graham]

Wow, only just read this all the way to the end! We have been eating at LCS not often enough since we moved to the Cotswolds 8 years ago. The service by Helen and her girls has always been just right for us. Gentle, friendly and unobtrusive. Personally, I would by offended if anyone asked to record me talking our restaurant about the food as it seems to be such an uncomfortable thing to do. I understand wanting to make a record of your meal, I really do, but always can't help but think that the pure pleasure of eating is diluted somewhat by the scramble to miss no detail. But that's just me, I want to always remember the pleasure of eating out, even if each ingredient can't be recalled.

[PSmith]

That said, I really think (I've always shown sympathy to David on this forum so I say this without malice) it tarnishes the reputation of bloggers and of picture-taking food lovers in general to let our 'reviewing' (the use of the word 'review' for a few mangled comments seems excessive to me) activities interfere with service, be it by asking people to hold still with trays, bottles, etc. in their hands for more than the briefest of instants or recording their descriptions or moving around holding a camera. I find that intrusive and impolite. The civilised thing to do is to be as discreet as possible, and just photograph what happens in 'real time' with no fuss at all, having as a firm priority the avoidance of any disturbance to other (reasonable) people, customers or staff, rather than the quality or quantity of the pictures. While I'm at it, I also think one should not take recognisable pictures of other customers.

Very much my view. I am not a serious food blogger. I find the action of people taking photos of their dinner quite annoying. In fact, the next time I see it happening in a restaurant, I am quite tempted to curl one out on a side plate and present it to the photographer. Cuts out the middleman.

[hungryhippo]

That said, I really think (I've always shown sympathy to David on this forum so I say this without malice) it tarnishes the reputation of bloggers and of picture-taking food lovers in general to let our 'reviewing' (the use of the word 'review' for a few mangled comments seems excessive to me) activities interfere with service, be it by asking people to hold still with trays, bottles, etc. in their hands for more than the briefest of instants or recording their descriptions or moving around holding a camera. I find that intrusive and impolite. The civilised thing to do is to be as discreet as possible, and just photograph what happens in 'real time' with no fuss at all, having as a firm priority the avoidance of any disturbance to other (reasonable) people, customers or staff, rather than the quality or quantity of the pictures. While I'm at it, I also think one should not take recognisable pictures of other customers.

Very much my view. I am not a serious food blogger. I find the action of people taking photos of their dinner quite annoying. In fact, the next time I see it happening in a restaurant, I am quite tempted to curl one out on a side plate and present it to the photographer. Cuts out the middleman.

Personally I find it more amusing than annoying when other diners whip out some super-lensed SLR, but can understand how it might offend. The trouble is, the most interesting posts and blogs are those with good quality photos that you can practically salivate over. We - or me at least - want to have our cake and eat it. Even as a diner I sometimes find myself torn between wanting to enjoy the moment and to capture some pictures of particularly special meals for posterity.

And of course, when it comes to some self-appointed food reviewers (no names, you know the drill), the photos are way more interesting than the text. At least you can't make basic grammatical errors or pile on the clichés with a camera.

When it comes to arguing whether a meal is 'worthy of 2 stars', nobody is ever going to win. Michelin's system is wonky and idiosyncratic at best. Always has been, especially in the UK. What they proclaim isn't right or wrong, it's just their opinion. Anyone who says their views are objective is mad - you can't take personal taste, appetite on the day, general mood, how buzzing the restaurant is when you visit, the inertia of previous years' scoring, or whatever out of the inspecting equation. It's food. It's personal. You can't reduce it to a score sheet. And does anybody still believe that Michelin visits every restaurant multiple times a year to get a more balanced view?

Blame programmes like Great British Menu for peddling the idea that the Michelin guide is some kind of bible. No one guide is perfect, which is why they are several, and why people either cross-reference or choose one that aligns best with their own tastes. But the point is, for better or worse, we each now have our own idea of what a 1 or 2 star meal should be, so David or anyone else is entitled to say if they think something falls between that imagined standard. Doesn't make them any more or less right. (Personally my one visit to Le Champignon was also coloured by a lack of warmth or atmosphere front of house, and - even after getting excited by the Essence book - the food just didn't do it for me or the missus. Not what I'd expected from a 2-star. But for others it clearly is, and KaffirLime's lovely story shows just how they can really deliver.)

What's less valid is posting something online that is so obviously over-coloured by a bad mood (in this case offence about not being able to use a tape recorder) but which doesn't fully explain why. Full marks to the chef for responding so calmly. I don't doubt that his view is just as subjective - I daresay with a man-and-wife operation that any offence taken front of house will be taken even more personally by the other half - but at least he helps paint the bigger picture that David so obviously avoided giving, and is clearly usually prepared to let the food do the talking and take the rough with the smooth, review-wise.

After all this I too hope David keeps eating and posting - I just hope he takes a little more care in future. And for Le Champignon's sake, I hope somebody else eats there soon and posts about it - this constant discussion about one bad review must be bloody annoying.

[Harters]

Welcome to the board Ms/Mr PSmith.

An interesting choice of subjects for your first two posts. I look forward to your more positive contributions in due course.

[Man]

That said, I really think (I've always shown sympathy to David on this forum so I say this without malice) it tarnishes the reputation of bloggers and of picture-taking food lovers in general to let our 'reviewing' (the use of the word 'review' for a few mangled comments seems excessive to me) activities interfere with service, be it by asking people to hold still with trays, bottles, etc. in their hands for more than the briefest of instants or recording their descriptions or moving around holding a camera. I find that intrusive and impolite. The civilised thing to do is to be as discreet as possible, and just photograph what happens in 'real time' with no fuss at all, having as a firm priority the avoidance of any disturbance to other (reasonable) people, customers or staff, rather than the quality or quantity of the pictures. While I'm at it, I also think one should not take recognisable pictures of other customers.

Very much my view. I am not a serious food blogger. I find the action of people taking photos of their dinner quite annoying. In fact, the next time I see it happening in a restaurant, I am quite tempted to curl one out on a side plate and present it to the photographer. Cuts out the middleman.

I also wrote

As Chef The Greek says, he's not bothered by the act of taking pictures in itself (he's even flattered): that's a positive, reasonable attitude. A fight signals unreasonable behaviour somewhere. It's only when you have unreasonable intrusiveness on one side or unreasonable intolerance on the side of customers or staff, or both, that tthings go awry.

[PSmith]

I also wrote

As Chef The Greek says, he's not bothered by the act of taking pictures in itself (he's even flattered): that's a positive, reasonable attitude. A fight signals unreasonable behaviour somewhere. It's only when you have unreasonable intrusiveness on one side or unreasonable intolerance on the side of customers or staff, or both, that tthings go awry.

I have no problems with people using a small compact camera without flash to take photos of their dinner for their blogs, but I have seen people with oversized SLRs standing and moving around between tables to get a better shot. To use a video recorder is crass and vulgar. After all, are you there to enjoy a meal or to generate a few minutes of fame on the internet?

As said previously on the thread, many bloggers take photos as their creative writing skills are not up to scratch. If you read the professional critics, they rarely take photos and will use the PR supplied ones if required.

There are some bloggers I would like to see trying to review without photos.

[tony h]

More on the new book: http://www.absolutep...pignon-sauvage/

[Soundman]

I'm overdue a writeup of our meal there last week, I'll do it this week. Suffice to say it was first class from beginning to end, the service and food were perfect, stand out dish was something I never would have ordered, mackerel with a pigs trotter and whelk gayette, really really good.

Edited by Soundman, 18 July 2012 - 12:37 AM.

[RDB]

"mackerel with a pigs trotter and whelk gayette"!! Can't even comprehend that, look forward to hearing your review!!!

[Sidney]

What is a whelk gayette even google does not recognize the word.

[Mjx]

"mackerel with a pigs trotter and whelk gayette"!! Can't even comprehend that, look forward to hearing your review!!!

What is a whelk gayette even google does not recognize the word.

Right. It's understood that 'gayette' is almost certaily 'galette', the waiter's pronunciation was apparently a bit... misleading Thanks to fellow member the greek, I am able to pass along the information that a gayette is a 'small sausage patty made with pork liver and bacon, wrapped in caul fat' (the link to which he directed me:www.patriciawells.com/glossary/french_english_food_glossary.pdf), and I'm sure we're all looking forward to Soundman's elaboration on this in his upcoming write-up.

[Soundman]

I was indeed expecting a galette, and confidently told my wife that was what we should expect :)

It was written on the menu, you'll get no criticism of waiting staff pronunciation from me.....

What arrived was indeed a small patty, that reminded me in texture, but not taste, of a Thai fish cake. More to follow.

[Gary Marshall]

Just seen on twitter LCS celebrating their 25th anniversary today. Congratulations, a hell of an achievement as anyone who's ever worked in the trade will attest!

Good to see the respect shown from the heavyweight twitter chefs also.