112 replies to this topic

[col klink]

We should be careful to draw too many conclusions without additional information.

Hah! Too late.

Yes, I was probably overhanded with my comparison with "pickling" the meat. However, I have noticed the difference in the meat texture. If you're brining for less than 4 hours it probably doesn't matter, but for overnight stuff (like every one of my chickens) there is a slight rubbery texture. Most people who don't brine or know nothing of it, when they first try my poultry won't notice it since they are enamored with the juiciness but they just don't see as much as I do nor do they look at it with such a critical eye.

At my last party I smoked up a Salmon and a turkey and did a little apologizing for the turkey since I didn't have my thermometer and they nearly jumped down my throat to suggest that I had created anything less than perfection. Luckily by next year these friends will be like my friends in Seattle and will know the difference. Of course it was nice to receive that kind of adulation after having the critical eye for so long.

[slkinsey]

Dave, what I've heard about the koshering process from a variety of sources is that meat needs to be made kosher through brining because brining "draws out the blood."

Although I am by no means an expert on Kosher law, this does not seem to be entirely accurate. Brine is a solution of liquid and salt. Something that is "brined" is soaked in such a solution.

Kosher law, and I'm going on what I read here, does not specify that meats be brined. Rather, they are soaked in tepid water for at least half an hour, the idea being, I gather, to soak it until the water no longer becomes reddened by the "blood" (actually probably myoglobin and dissolved minerals). After that, the water is drained away, salt is applied to every surface of the meat and the meat is placed where the "blood" can easily drain off. After an hour of salting, the salt is shaken off and the meat is rinsed three times (hopefully under the supervision of a G-d-fearing woman).

I would call this "salting" rather than "brining." As revealed in this thread, not everyone in these forums would agree with me. Call me conservative, but I hold that brining requires brine.

Does brining indeed draw out the blood? And if so, does it draw it all out, or just some of it?

I had always understood that there was no blood in the flesh of animals slaughtered by modern methods anyway. I have placed quotes around "blood" above because I think the salt part of koshering doesn't actually remove any blood. Perhaps one of the meat biz people can chime in here about whether there is any actual blood in meat. Regardless, I am at a complete loss as to any scientific explanation for how salting could "draw blood" out of meat.

The more I poke around the Internet reading about this, the more I think that many of the koshering procedures are designed to eliminate the appearance of blood or things that seem like they might be blood. For example, it's not clear to me that kashering (broiling, more or less) will really get rid of any blood that is potentially in a liver... but I imagine it makes the liver seem less "bloody."

And is there anything actually kosher about kosher salt, or is it called kosher salt only because it's used in the koshering process?

No on one and yes on two. According to the site I referenced at the top, "the salt should not be as fine as flour, as it would dissolve too quickly and would not properly drain the blood. Neither should the salt be too coarse as it may drop from the meat. The salt should be of medium size, like that used for cooking, and should be kept dry enough to be easily sprinkled."

[Dave the Cook]

Dave, what I've heard about the koshering process from a variety of sources is that meat needs to be made kosher through brining because brining "draws out the blood." Does brining indeed draw out the blood? And if so, does it draw it all out, or just some of it?

As I understand it, koshering is not brining. It's a three-step process: soak in cool water, remove and salt (as in: cover it completely), soak again. So it's not really the same situation.

Does koshering or brining "draw out blood"? Not in the clinical sense. Organs aside, meat is muscle, and the muscle of a healthy animal does not harbor blood (the "helathy" part is handled in the inspection that follows butchering). The red stuff that is commonly thought to be blood in meat is myoglobin; actual blood is hemoglobin. No doubt some myoglobin is drawn off in both proceses. The evidence is the pink cast that characterizes a used brine. But not all of it -- diffusion makes that impossible.

I don't want to make this a debate about kasruth, a discussion for which I am educationally and religiously almost completely unarmed. But it seems to me that Jewish dietary law has its roots in food safety. In particular, koshering meat seems to be about protecting the exposed surfaces of butchered meat, and about segregating potentially dangerous substances like blood from wholesome edibles. The idea that it is about surfaces is supported by the alternative treatment for some cuts: you can broil it. In fact, this is the only way that organ meats may be prepared; salting is considered inadequate. This is why steaks, for instance do not need the soak/salt/soak treatment -- because they are destined for the open flame. Perfectly kosher. Or kasher?

And is there anything actually kosher about kosher salt, or is it called kosher salt only because it's used in the koshering process?

As far as I can determine, salt the itself is irrelevant to dietary law, as a consumable. Remember that all the salt is to be washed off in the third step of koshering. It's named for its use, not its provenance. In any case, I think perhaps salt is by definition kosher? Every salt container I can find says it's kosher.

Isn't it interesting that this is probably the #1 English-language use of the word "kosher" yet, I'm sure, 90+ percent of the consumers of kosher salt aren't Jewish, don't care if their food is kosher, and aren't using the salt to kosher anything?

Yes.

[Dave the Cook]

Dave, thanks for a great class. I have been bringing for four years and have enjoyed much success, although my wife said our first brined turkey "tastes super--just like ham!"   I have a couple of pounds of fresh shrimp that is destined to become etouffee tonight. Since I will peel the shrimp for the etouffee, should I do the 30-minute brine with the shells still on, or should I brine the shrimp and then peel them after brining? I have brined shrimp before doing a shrimp boil, but I have never brined shrimp that were peeled for the cooking process.  Thanks.  Mark

Thank you.

The brine will work either way. For dishes where the shrimps will end up peeled anyway, I peel first because the brine is sticky, but that's just my preference.

You might try broiling brined shrimps, shell-on for peel 'n' eat festvities. It's a nice, slightly smoky variation, and the combination of shell and brine gives the shrimps enough protection to withstand the high direct heat.

By the way, I got that ham comment, too.

[Toliver]

Excellent course, thanks!

Coincidently I am brining a pork loin right now as my first experiment in brining, which leads me to ask you:

Am I ruining my loin?    

I just bought Chez Panisse Cooking and am following their instructions for "Roast Cured Loin". They say to brine the loin for 5 days!! That's a lot longer than 12-18 hours.

I did do a temp check on my fridge, and it averages 38F which is lower than the 40F they specify as maximum, so that seems okay.

I bought the loin Saturday and was planning on cooking it off Thursday... am I screwing up big-time?

Thanks,

Squeat

Perhaps Dave should address this.
From my understanding, the longer you brine it, the saltier it will taste (thus getting "tastes like ham" comments from your dinner guests).
I've also read on some of the other eGullet brining threads that brining too long can turn the meat mushy.
Will this happen after a 5 day brine? It seems a little excessive to me.
At what point in the brining timeline does the brining become moot because the deed is already done, so to speak, and any longer in the brine won't help the meat that much?

Edited to add an "s"

Edited by Toliver, 24 September 2003 - 04:55 PM.

[Squeat Mungry]

Excellent course, thanks!

Coincidently I am brining a pork loin right now as my first experiment in brining, which leads me to ask you:

Am I ruining my loin?    

I just bought Chez Panisse Cooking and am following their instructions for "Roast Cured Loin". They say to brine the loin for 5 days!! That's a lot longer than 12-18 hours.

I did do a temp check on my fridge, and it averages 38F which is lower than the 40F they specify as maximum, so that seems okay.

I bought the loin Saturday and was planning on cooking it off Thursday... am I screwing up big-time?

Thanks,

Squeat

Perhaps Dave should address this.
From my understanding, the longer you brine it, the saltier it will taste (thus getting "tastes like ham" comment from your dinner guests).
I've also read on some of the other eGullet brining threads that brining too long can turn the meat mushy.
Will this happen after a 5 day brine? It seems a little excessive to me.
At what point in the brining timeline does the brining become moot because the deed is already done, so to speak, and any longer in the brine won't help the meat that much?

I was kind of hoping he would. I'm of half a mind to cook it off tonight, but considering Margaret Pilgrim's advice and the fact that when I follow a recipe with a new technique for the first time, I like to do it "by the book", I probably won't.

Fortunately there are no dinner guests to make remarks.

Squeat

[vogelap]

I've noticed a printing issue with the class on Brining.

Typically, when I see that a new class has been posted, I select PRINT THIS TOPIC. For some reason, with the Brining class, the right side margins are all messed up -- the text flows off the page.

It's not on my end; the class on DRIVE IN cooking printed fine (and it was posted after the Brining class).

Can someone check, fix, and let me know, please?

[MatthewB]

Excellent course, thanks!

Coincidently I am brining a pork loin right now as my first experiment in brining, which leads me to ask you:

Am I ruining my loin?    

I just bought Chez Panisse Cooking and am following their instructions for "Roast Cured Loin". They say to brine the loin for 5 days!! That's a lot longer than 12-18 hours.

I did do a temp check on my fridge, and it averages 38F which is lower than the 40F they specify as maximum, so that seems okay.

I bought the loin Saturday and was planning on cooking it off Thursday... am I screwing up big-time?

Thanks,

Squeat

Perhaps Dave should address this.
From my understanding, the longer you brine it, the saltier it will taste (thus getting "tastes like ham" comments from your dinner guests).
I've also read on some of the other eGullet brining threads that brining too long can turn the meat mushy.
Will this happen after a 5 day brine? It seems a little excessive to me.
At what point in the brining timeline does the brining become moot because the deed is already done, so to speak, and any longer in the brine won't help the meat that much?

Edited to add an "s"

Remember that Paul Bertolli authored Chez Panisse Cooking . . .

In his new book--Cooking by Hand--there's a recipe for pork leg and/or loin that is brined for 5 to 6 days at 32 to 38* F.

The recipe is entitled "Oliveto House-Cured Ham."

[Squeat Mungry]

Interesting. The recipe in Chez Panisse Cooking is called "Roast Loin of Cured Pork".

So am I brining? Curing? Mushing? Or simply ruining?

Tonight will tell.

I'll post the results re: saltiness, mushiness, abject failure, etc.

Cheers,

Squeat

[Dave the Cook]

In my opinion, yes, at five days you are on the verge of wet curing. But real curing is usually done at much higher concentrations, so invoking the word "cure" is descriptive, rather than technical. I'm not saying that this is bad, but for sure it's going to be hammy. Maybe that's what the recipe intends. Brining is pretty formulaic: it's less iffy, for instance, than a recipe that calls for "medium" heat (don't you always wonder how close your "medium" is to the author's?). In brining, this much of this kind of meat + this much salt = a repeatable result.

Many recipes call for brining whole loins two to four days. If you want pork flavor to predominate, I think that's too long, but it's really a matter of taste. I would go two days maximum. After that, you're going to get something less like roasted pork and more like ham. And yes, there is a theoretical limit to brining: eventually all the liquids will come to equilibrium. But because you're mucking around with the physical structure of the meat proteins, and they're undergoing slow but fairly constant change, that's going to take a long time. You'll have gotten the maximum seasoning value from brining long before that stage is reached. On the other hand, I suspect that in the Chez Panisse recipe, those protein changes are part of the effect you're after.

So my advice to you, SM, is to do the recipe as it's written. Otherwise, you'll never know what the author was trying to do. If it comes out too hammy, or to salty, you can change it next time. And please let us know what happens.

[Squeat Mungry]

Thanks very much, Dave.

I would imagine Bertolli must be going for a more cured, "hammy" product with this recipe, then.

I'll be sure to post a post-mortem. Fortunately, I like pork AND ham!

Squeat

[Dave the Cook]

Fortunately, I like  pork AND ham!

Exactly. How can you lose?

[Squeat Mungry]

Okay, the report:

It's good. The texture is great. Moist. Tender. Slices well, shreds well. Not mushy at all.

The taste? Well, it tastes like pork. Maybe a slight trace of ham taste, but not much.

It's fine and will make good leftovers, but the flavor is not really the revelation I was hoping for. I think I'll choose another subject for my next brining experiment.

Thanks Dave the Cook, Margaret Pilgrim and others who gave advice!

Cheers,

Squeat

PS This was also my first time trying out my new Polder thermometer which tracks the temp of the meat AND the ambient temp of the oven. Works like a charm! Now THERE's a revelation!

[Dave the Cook]

Okay, the report:

It's good. The texture is great. Moist. Tender. Slices well, shreds well. Not mushy at all.

The taste? Well, it tastes like pork. Maybe a slight trace of ham taste, but not much.

It's fine and will make good leftovers, but the flavor is not really the revelation I was hoping for. I think I'll choose another subject for my next brining experiment.

Thanks Dave the Cook, Margaret Pilgrim and others who gave advice!

Cheers,

Squeat

PS This was also my first time trying out my new Polder thermometer which tracks the temp of the meat AND the ambient temp of the oven. Works like a charm! Now THERE's a revelation!

Thanks for your report, SM.

I'm glad the brining didn't go overboard. IMO, the most dramatic results come with turkey and chicken breast. Maybe they could be candidates for your next excursion. Check out the Best Chicken Ever thread for ideas.

As for the Polder: yes, they really are great -- wait till you use one on a grill or in a smoker! If you've got a probe that works, protect it like the treasure it is. I don't know if there was a bad batch or what, but for a while it seemed like there were an awful lot of failures. (BTW, the probes are interchangeable among most of the major brands.)

[jminion]

Dave
I was asked a question on brinning that I have never come across before.
If you were to brine chicken , rinse, package and freeze what can you expect when it is thawed?
Jim

[peanutgirl]

I have a question on brine ingredients... specifically the addition of soy sauce. What proportion to water, and would the salt still be necessary?

I've brined a few chickens, turkey wings and pork shoulders with success but had this idea ( Ok, it was a dream. I dream of smoking ever since we bought our WSM a few months ago!) to try a honey/ soy flavored brine. Can anyone give me a starting point, so I can fool around with it? I was thinking a cup each of honey & soy to a gallon of water. Any opinions would be appreciated as I plan on smoking some chicken on New Year's Day.

[Allura]

Bit of thread resurrection here, but it seems the appropriate place to ask:

I'm trying to determine how much sodum actually ends up in the meat, particularly for someone on a low-salt diet. My father is now limited in his salt intake, so I'm wondering if brining is acceptable for his diet? Generally, he tries to keep it down to 200mg per serving (2000mg / day is his limit, and he tries to eat much less), although a bit more is acceptable at dinner, his main meal.

Thanks for any help.

[Chris Amirault]

I've been using a brine technique for a while that I think greatly speeds up the time between starting a brine and brining the meat. Well, to be honest, it's a cocktail technique. [ETA: it's also mentioned in the brining course -- should have read that more carefully before posting! -- CA]

1. Measure out your salt, sugar, and any other components you want to have in the brine, and note how much water you'll need.

2. Heat about 10-20% of the water (a quart or so for me usually) of water -- I usually just use the hottest water I can get out of the tap -- and add the brine ingredients to the water. Stir until they've dissolved.

3. The cocktail step: add a bunch of ice to the concentrated brine and stir it to cool it immediately. Measure to see how much water you've now got (some of it frozen, all of it cold).

4. Add whatever additional cold water has to go into the brine for the proper ratios (along with more ice if you want).

Edited by chrisamirault, 12 April 2008 - 01:38 PM.

[qrn]

If you use "canning and pickling" salt, and "ultrafine bakers" sugar,(both very fine), you don't need to do any heating. They will dissolve nicely, in cold tap water...
Bud

[Peter the eater]

This is very good stuff -- it's so nice to to have these online resources.

I've got an inexpensive polycarbonate plastic marinator that features a big plunger with an o-ring for a lid so I can reduce the volume/increase the pressure within the chamber. It seems to drive the soy sauce into the fork-perforated chicken breast well enough, but now I'm thinking it might enhance the cold brining experience.

If I use this gizmo to brine a small piece of pork belly in my fridge for a few days -- under pressure -- will I get better results/shorter time required?

[RobertCollins]

[quote name='theakston' date='Sep 23 2003, 03:30 PM']
I saw a recipe for brine that, instead of measuring / weighing the salt said to add as much as it took for a potato to float in it. What are your thoughts on that? too much? [/quote]

I think the potato thing is charming, and I think it would work, for the most part. But it's hardly the sort of thing you can expect a Smug Scientific Bastard (SSB) to approve:[list]

[/quote]


So what happens to Potatoes when brined? Is the concept even viable?

Seems like the best method for perfect repeatable seasoning. Then again, would it cause too much water for frying either skillet or deep?

What about Brining Veggies?

BTW Isn't the perfect BRINE supposed to float an egg?

[Peter the eater]

This is very good stuff -- it's so nice to to have these online resources.

I've got an inexpensive polycarbonate plastic marinator that features a big plunger with an o-ring for a lid so I can reduce the volume/increase the pressure within the chamber. It seems to drive the soy sauce into the fork-perforated chicken breast well enough, but now I'm thinking it might enhance the cold brining experience.

If I use this gizmo to brine a small piece of pork belly in my fridge for a few days -- under pressure -- will I get better results/shorter time required?

Correction -- now that I've actually used the marinator a second time, I should clarify that the plunger is pulled UP to REDUCE the pressure inside. The meat "opens up" a bit and the marinade or brine rushes in.

[Recoil Rob]

I'm a fan of brining, had great success last week brininh striped bass filets. they were about 1" thick and I brined for about 75 minutes then let rest for a day. It grilled up perfectly, moist and held the brine's flavoring well (mostly herbs).

[agray]

Just made the Pork Tenderloin recipe from Thomas Keller's 'Ad-hoc at Home' and I had a brining query. He uses a 1 cup kosher salt to 8 cups water ratio, plus all sorts of aromatics, and suggests a 4 hour brining time. I only had time for 2 1/2 hours and although my wife thought it was excellent, I found it a bit too salty for my taste.

So, to reduce the saltiness, is it better to reduce the salt to water ratio and give it the standard length brining or keep the ratio the same and reduce the time? I presume there's some chemistry at work here otherwise you could have super short brining time with a higher ratio...

[JAZ]

One thing to consider is that not all kosher salt measures the same. Does the recipe specify a brand? Morton's is significantly heavier than Diamond Crystal, for instance -- if you're using Morton's, you'd want to reduce the salt to 3/4 cup to equal the weight of one cup of Daimond. (I'm surprised that Keller doesn't provide a weight for the salt.)

[Dave the Cook]

(I'm surprised that Keller doesn't provide a weight for the salt.)

He does: 5 ounces to two quarts of water -- and he recommends Diamond Crystal. This is a pretty standard formula (it's what I use). agray, I'd try Keller's recipe again if you used Morton's -- just weigh it or follow Janet's measurement.

But to answer the question as to time or salt concentration, you should adjust concentration. Brine penetration is a constant, so if you want evenly seasoned meat, you have to give it enough time, regardless of how much salt you're using.

There's more information in the eGCI course.

[velveeta]

You did rinse it thouroughly after brining, right?

Was the pork already injected and treated with saline before you brined it?

One last idea, you can use part salt and part sugar in brines for pork and poultry.

[agray]

Thanks for the quick and very helpful responses. I'm such a newbie - I didn't weigh the salt, as you suspected JAZ. I just checked now, and Keller does indeed note that a cup of Diamond Crystal is 5 oz. I weighed our Kosher salt (Windsor brand - I'm not sure how easy Diamond Crystal is to get in Canada) and a cup is 7.6 oz. So there you go.

Thanks also for the suggestions, Velveeta - it was not treated with saline already, though it's very useful to keep that in mind. Keller's recipe does have some honey in it, though maybe not as much as other brines, and I did rinse it, though I'll be careful to be thorough next time.

And Dave, thanks so much for the link. I'm still learning my way around here - I'd no idea the eGCI course was there; what a marvellous resource it is. Next time I'll put in 4-5 oz and aim for a 3-4 hour brining.

[Dave the Cook]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but sweetening is added to offset the salt from a taste perspective. When it comes to the chemistry of brining, sugar plays no part.

[Shalmanese]

Cup measures always seemed dumb to me for brines. Here's how I do it: I put the meat in the container I'm brining it in and then, using a 1 litre measure (metric makes this significantly simpler), I pour water on it until it's wholly submerged, keeping track of how much water is used. I then measure out salt as a percentage by weight of the water. 3% for a medium brine, 2% for a light brine, 4% for an aggressive brine. If you're using non-metric, for every 4 cups of water, adding an ounce of salt leads to approximately a 3% brine.

I usually also like to add brown sugar at somewhere between 50 - 100% of the weight of the salt. Take the meat out, dump in the sugar/salt, stir until dissolved (even in ice water, a 3% brine has no problems dissolving with 30 seconds of stirring), then add the meat back in.

Depending on the shape of the brining vessel & the shape of the meat, the volume of brine can vary drastically. Apart from cookbook authors fearing their readers are bad at math, I don't know why this isn't the standard brining technique.