112 replies to this topic

[Dave the Cook]

I suppose if I pan fried breaded/flour pork chops anymore, I'd treat them the same way.

Why don't you do that any more? Prefer to smother 'em in onions?

Most of the leaner cuts of pig these days are awful, unless you're willing to pay premium princes (actually I'm more willing than able). Pork chops have my heart broken one too many times. I'm sorry (snif), I just can't talk about it any more . . .

[Mottmott]

I often use Patrick O'Connell's recipe for brining fowl. It includes a wide variety of herbs, spices, honey, etc. that are brought to a boil, allowed to cool, then used to marinate the bird. I find it gives a wonderful flavor and vary what spices I use according to what's cooking - or what's available.

Birds roasted this way have been met with wild enthusiasm from my guests. If I were going to use the fowl in a dish with its own flavors and aromas, I would probably modify the brining to be less complex to not compete with the rest of the recipie.

[JAZ]

Dave, the last couple of times I've brined meat (chicken thighs and pork tenderloin), I've then finished it with a jerk-style paste/marinade (more of a paste than a marinade) for a very short time -- about 20 minutes.

Not that I did side-by-side comparisons, but it seemed to me that the flavors in the paste permeated the brined meat more than they did when I used the paste on untreated meat. Do you think that was just my imagination? Is there some reason for that to happen?

[Dave the Cook]

I often use Patrick O'Connell's recipe for brining fowl.  It includes a wide variety of herbs, spices, honey, etc. that are brought to a boil, allowed to cool, then used to marinate the bird. I find it gives a wonderful flavor and vary what spices I use according to what's cooking - or what's available.

Birds roasted this way have been met with wild enthusiasm from my guests. If I were going to use the fowl in a dish with its own flavors and aromas, I would probably modify the brining to be less complex to not compete with the rest of the recipie.

Can you provide a link, or more information? I'm not certain that this meets the definiton of brining.

As the delegated SSB for this lesson, I think it's crucial that we not use brining and marinating as if they were interchageable. They're not.

This is not to deny that it's very good, of course. In fact, it sounds terrific.

[slkinsey]

I suppose if I pan fried breaded/flour pork chops anymore, I'd treat them the same way.

Why don't you do that any more? Prefer to smother 'em in onions?

Most of the leaner cuts of pig these days are awful, unless you're willing to pay premium princes (actually I'm more willing than able). Pork chops have my heart broken one too many times. I'm sorry (snif), I just can't talk about it any more . . .

I know what you mean. If they're cheap pork chops, I really only like them thin cut and smothered (in either onions, mushrooms or both). I brown them off over really high heat, then put them aside as I deglaze and make the onions and/or mushrooms. When that's ready, I put the pork chops back in just long enough to heat them through. Seems to keep them tender and moist.

For a real pork chop experience, I am lucky enough to have an old-fashioned full-service butcher nearby. When I want double cut pork chops, he pulls a whole fat-covered bone-in loin of pork out of the walk-in and asks how I want 'em. Not cheap, but certainly not expensive (although obviously I'm talking relative to NYC prices here). I usually brine these for around 2-3 hours before pan searing and finishing in the oven. They've never let me down even once. Nothing like it next to some cheddar cheese grits and sauteed bitter greens dressed with hot pepper vinegar.

[Varmint]

Most of the leaner cuts of pig these days are awful, unless you're willing to pay premium princes (actually I'm more willing than able).  Pork chops have my heart broken one too many times. I'm sorry (snif), I just can't talk about it any more . . .

Now, now, Dave. It's gonna be all right. Varmint's here to take care of you in a couple of weeks with some Niman Ranch pig. There, isn't that better now?

[slkinsey]

Can you provide a link, or more information? I'm not certain that this meets the definiton of brining.

As the delegated SSB for this lesson, I think it's crucial that we not use brining and marinating as if they were interchageable. They're not.

Dave, look here. I linked to this recipe from this page, which attributed the recipe to Patrick O'Connell.

Sounds like brining to me.

[Mottmott]

[quote name='Dave the Cook' date='Sep 23 2003, 10:13 AM'][quote name='Mottmott' date='Sep 23 2003, 01:08 PM'] I often use Patrick O'Connell's recipe for brining fowl.  It includes a wide variety of herbs, spices, honey, etc. that are brought to a boil, allowed to cool, then used to marinate the bird. I find it gives a wonderful flavor and vary what spices I use according to what's cooking - or what's available.

Birds roasted this way have been met with wild enthusiasm from my guests. If I were going to use the fowl in a dish with its own flavors and aromas, I would probably modify the brining to be less complex to not compete with the rest of the recipie. [/quote]
Can you provide a link, or more information? I'm not certain that this meets the definiton of brining.

As the delegated SSB for this lesson, I think it's crucial that we not use brining and marinating as if they were interchageable. They're not.

This is not to deny that it's very good, of course. In fact, it sounds terrific.[/quote]
[QUOTE]


My bad, I should have said "brine," not "marinate." The recipe is below, both attributed and paraphrased, so it should be legal.



BRINED CHICKEN from Patrick O’Connell,
found in NYT 12-22-99

serves 4-5; Time: 1 hour 15 minutes, plus overnight brining

My notes: This recipe imparts a wonderful taste to the fowl; used on both chicken and Turkey. Time must be adjusted for the size of the bird. Used on parts do not follow timing here or it becomes too salty. For the turkey (fresh, organic, free range), I multiplied the recipe and used a picnic cooler which I left outdoors in the chill Fall air. Worked fine.

BRINE:
½ cup kosher salt
1 3/4 cups sugar
1 cup honey
3 sprigs each parsley, dill, thyme, tarragon, sage
1 sprig rosemary
1 Tbs mustard seeds
1 Tbs fennel seeds
1 cinnamon stick
2 large bay leaves
4 cloves
½ Tbs juniper berries
½ Tbs cardamom pods
1 Tbs black peppercorns
1 lemon, halved and squeezed lightly
3 star anise
½ Tbs whole allspice
CHICKEN:
3-4 lb chicken
1 cup sliced carrots
1 cup sliced celery
1 cup sliced onion
2 Tbs butter, melted

1. Large stockpot or roasting pan that holds chicken in one piece: bring 1 gallon to a boil; remove from heat, add all brine ingredients, stir. Cool to room temperature. (Of course you can substitute a ziplock for the pan once the brine cools.)

2. Add chicken to pan. Cover, refrigerate overnight.

From here you can substitute your own favorite way of roasting the bird, but I give you O'Connell's instructions for completeness:

3. Drain chicken well, discard brine. Cut off and discard wing tips. Preheat oven to 350f. Roasting pan: place carrot, celery, onion. Place chicken on top of veggies. Brush chicken with melted butter.

4. Roast chicken til thigh joint temperature reaches 150f, about 1 hour. Baste with pan juices at least every 15 minutes. Watch carefully to avoid burning. If parts become well browned, cover with foil. When chicken is done remove from oven. Allow it to rest at least 10 minutes before carving. (depends on size of bird, of course)

[Dave the Cook]

Yup, that's brining.

One thing I learned from Alton Brown that speeds things up (I used the same technique in the lesson) is to cut the water in half (you'll still have plenty to dissolve the salt and sugar). Then let the brine cool just a bit and add the other half as ice-water.

[Dave the Cook]

Dave, the last couple of times I've brined meat (chicken thighs and pork tenderloin), I've then finished it with a jerk-style paste/marinade (more of a paste than a marinade) for a very short time -- about 20 minutes.

Not that I did side-by-side comparisons, but it seemed to me that the flavors in the paste permeated the brined meat more than they did when I used the paste on untreated meat. Do you think that was just my imagination? Is there some reason for that to happen?

I've gotten the same sense when I've slipped chili oil or an herb paste under the skin of a brined chicken. All I can think is that somehow the brining is opening up the surface of the flesh somehow. I can't think of a way to prove or disprove our observations, though.

[Dave the Cook]

I suppose if I pan fried breaded/flour pork chops anymore, I'd treat them the same way.

Why don't you do that any more? Prefer to smother 'em in onions?

Most of the leaner cuts of pig these days are awful, unless you're willing to pay premium princes (actually I'm more willing than able). Pork chops have my heart broken one too many times. I'm sorry (snif), I just can't talk about it any more . . .

I know what you mean. If they're cheap pork chops, I really only like them thin cut and smothered (in either onions, mushrooms or both). I brown them off over really high heat, then put them aside as I deglaze and make the onions and/or mushrooms. When that's ready, I put the pork chops back in just long enough to heat them through. Seems to keep them tender and moist.

For a real pork chop experience, I am lucky enough to have an old-fashioned full-service butcher nearby. When I want double cut pork chops, he pulls a whole fat-covered bone-in loin of pork out of the walk-in and asks how I want 'em. Not cheap, but certainly not expensive (although obviously I'm talking relative to NYC prices here). I usually brine these for around 2-3 hours before pan searing and finishing in the oven. They've never let me down even once. Nothing like it next to some cheddar cheese grits and sauteed bitter greens dressed with hot pepper vinegar.

Butcher? What's a butcher?

I do the smothering thing when I can't stand the loneliness anymore, but these are not the chops of my youth.

I do have high hopes for a carneceria that's opened around the corner, and Jason has suggested trying Chinese shops for pork. I might try this, as there is a serious Asian shopping district in Northeast Atlanta.

[FoodMan]

Dave-
Congrats on a very informative and interesting class!! I started brining meats (especially pork, bscb, and whole chickens) after I did this:



This was the turkey from last thanksgiving. It was brined and cooked per Alton Brown's recipe and it was a huge success. We -for the first time- had no leftovers.

My 2 cents about flavoring the brine even though they have been mentioned already: I do believe making a strong tea with the brine works great. I've infused meat cuts with rosmary, mint, ginger and allspice berries to name a few. The main thing is that the liquid needs to boil with them for a minute or two then steep till cool. For me brinign is not just a method to make meats moist or tender but also a great carrier of flavors.


FM

[theakston]

Excellent class. Thanks. One thing about getting the salt amount right:
I saw a recipe for brine that, instead of measuring / weighing the salt said to add as much as it took for a potato to float in it. What are your thoughts on that? too much? too little? depends?

And food man. Thanks for posting that picture. I wasn't hungry before.
I'm now going to have to go for lunch.

[Dave the Cook]

Excellent class. Thanks. One thing about getting the salt amount right:
I saw a recipe for brine that, instead of measuring / weighing the salt said to add as much as it took for a potato to float in it. What are your thoughts on that? too much? too little? depends?

Thank you.

I think the potato thing is charming, and I think it would work, for the most part. But it's hardly the sort of thing you can expect a Smug Scientific Bastard (SSB) to approve:

• A lot would depend on the type of potato. Setting aside individual potato-to-potato (p2p) variation, there are big differences in moisture content between, say, a Russet and a Yukon Gold. This water content would be the prime determinant in the quantity of salt required to enable tuber buoyancy. You would have to contend with both original water content, and differing rates of absorption.
  
• It's hardly repeatable, due to p2p variation cited above. Repeatability is essential for SSB endorsement.
  
• SSBs don't believe in guesswork when a measuring device (especially if it's electronic) can obviate it. Weigh your salt, measure your water. Save the rustic notions for garnishing your perfectly seasoned protein.

[Dave the Cook]

That is one beautiful turkey, FoodMan.

[FoodMan]

Excellent class. Thanks. One thing about getting the salt amount right:
I saw a recipe for brine that, instead of measuring / weighing the salt said to add as much as it took for a potato to float in it. What are your thoughts on that? too much? too little? depends?

Thank you.

I think the potato thing is charming, and I think it would work, for the most part. But it's hardly the sort of thing you can expect a Smug Scientific Bastard (SSB) to approve:

• A lot would depend on the type of potato. Setting aside individual potato-to-potato (p2p) variation, there are big differences in moisture content between, say, a Russet and a Yukon Gold. This water content would be the prime determinant in the quantity of salt required to enable tuber buoyancy. You would have to contend with both original water content, and differing rates of absorption.
  
  
• It's hardly repeatable, due to p2p variation cited above. Repeatability is essential for SSB endorsement.
  
  
• SSBs don't believe in guesswork when a measuring device (especially if it's electronic) can obviate it. Weigh your salt, measure your water. Save the rustic notions for garnishing your perfectly seasoned protein.

Thanks.

what about using an egg instead of potato?? Or would be then pickling the meat?? I beleive that is what my grandma does when she is curing olives.



FM

[Dave the Cook]

what about using an egg instead of potato?? Or would be then pickling the meat?? I beleive that is what my grandma does when she is curing olives.



FM

Aw, hell. I was afraid someone would bring up the egg. Now I'm going have to try it and see how much salt is required. I'll let you know.

But I refer you to the third point in my list. Why would you want to float an egg when you can just measure and go?

[FoodMan]

But I refer you to the third point in my list. Why would you want to float an egg when you can just measure and go?

I wouldn't, I was just wondering. Besides now (after you get back to us with the results of course) we would know how much salt is required to float an egg

FM

[Dave the Cook]

But I refer you to the third point in my list. Why would you want to float an egg when you can just measure and go?

I wouldn't, I was just wondering. Besides now (after you get back to us with the results of course) we would know how much salt is required to float an egg

FM

You're right, it's important.

[maggiethecat]

Why would you want to float an egg when you can just measure and go?

Mr. SSB, Sir:

Old trucs like this can be invaluable. It is possible, just possible, that one can find oneself obliged to cook without instrumentation. Is is perfectly feasible that one could someday be brining a beast without measuring/weighing equipment.

Well...lost in the Outback, or something like that.

(Backing out of lab cautiously.)

[FoodMan]

Oh, I cannot believe I forgot to mention this, but the mental image of a pig brining happily in a ( or in my) bath tub struck me as hilarious. I hope Varmint tries it and takes pictures.

Imagining unsuspecting guests walking into the bath room....


FM

[Varmint]

Oh, I cannot believe I forgot to mention this, but the mental image of a pig brining happily in a ( or in my) bath tub struck me as hilarious.  I hope Varmint tries it and takes pictures.

Imagining unsuspecting guests walking into the bath room....


FM

Oh, there will be pictures. I'm more concerned about what the L'il Varmints will think.

[Squeat Mungry]

Excellent course, thanks!

Coincidently I am brining a pork loin right now as my first experiment in brining, which leads me to ask you:

Am I ruining my loin?

I just bought Chez Panisse Cooking and am following their instructions for "Roast Cured Loin". They say to brine the loin for 5 days!! That's a lot longer than 12-18 hours.

I did do a temp check on my fridge, and it averages 38F which is lower than the 40F they specify as maximum, so that seems okay.

I bought the loin Saturday and was planning on cooking it off Thursday... am I screwing up big-time?

Thanks,

Squeat

Edited by Squeat Mungry, 23 September 2003 - 03:40 PM.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Squeat, I will give you the same advice my husband often gives me when I'm in a kitchen quandry: "Try following the directions on the tin." The tin, this time, being the directions from a legitimate source such as "Chez Panise Cooking".

If it makes you feel any better, I frequently use Todd English's recipe for brined porkchops, which calls for leaving double-cut chops in the (sweet) brine for 4 days.

Let 'em soak and enjoy!

[Squeat Mungry]

Margaret,

My thanks to you and your husband. I feel more relaxed now. Can't wait to roast that loin!

Squeat

[fifi]

As I have previously mentioned, I have fallen in love with the flavor of sour orange and pork. I noted that I had seen the addition of up to a half cup of orange juice to a gallon of brine. I tried this and a light taste of orange came through but not as much as I would like. Being wary of too much acid pickling my pork, how much orange juice per gallon do you think I can get away with when brining a pork butt for 24 hours? Do you have any idea what the lowest tolerable pH might be before you are making pork ceviche? (I can get my hands on some test strips or a pH meter. Being a SSB has its rewards.)


Or should I just do the simple brine and inject some pure orange juice before cooking? (BTW... My first experiment was smoked. It was good but the smoking overpowered the other flavors so I would do this recipe in the oven.)

[col klink]

Why not make an orange reduction sauce and throw it in your roasting pan along with your loin? That way you won't pickle your pork and you'll get plenty of orange flavor.

[Fat Guy]

Dave, what I've heard about the koshering process from a variety of sources is that meat needs to be made kosher through brining because brining "draws out the blood." Does brining indeed draw out the blood? And if so, does it draw it all out, or just some of it? And is there anything actually kosher about kosher salt, or is it called kosher salt only because it's used in the koshering process? Isn't it interesting that this is probably the #1 English-language use of the word "kosher" yet, I'm sure, 90+ percent of the consumers of kosher salt aren't Jewish, don't care if their food is kosher, and aren't using the salt to kosher anything?

[MarkinHouston]

Dave, thanks for a great class. I have been bringing for four years and have enjoyed much success, although my wife said our first brined turkey "tastes super--just like ham!" I have a couple of pounds of fresh shrimp that is destined to become etouffee tonight. Since I will peel the shrimp for the etouffee, should I do the 30-minute brine with the shells still on, or should I brine the shrimp and then peel them after brining? I have brined shrimp before doing a shrimp boil, but I have never brined shrimp that were peeled for the cooking process. Thanks. Mark

[Dave the Cook]

As I have previously mentioned, I have fallen in love with the flavor of sour orange and pork. I noted that I had seen the addition of up to a half cup of orange juice to a gallon of brine. I tried this and a light taste of orange came through but not as much as I would like. Being wary of too much acid pickling my pork, how much orange juice per gallon do you think I can get away with when brining a pork butt for 24 hours? Do you have any idea what the lowest tolerable pH might be before you are making pork ceviche? (I can get my hands on some test strips or a pH meter. Being a SSB has its rewards.)


Or should I just do the simple brine and inject some pure orange juice before cooking? (BTW... My first experiment was smoked. It was good but the smoking overpowered the other flavors so I would do this recipe in the oven.)

I won't dispute that a combination of acid and salt can have a significant effect on meat. But I think we should get things in perspective.

Ceviche uses undiluted citrus (usually lime, or a mixture of lime and lemon) juice. The acid content of lemon juice varies; it is in the range of 3.7 to 8.4% citric acid. Let's take 5% as an average value. (I couldn't track down the acid content of limes, but they are weaker than lemons, and oranges, even sour oranges, are weaker still.)

One half-cup of lemon juice (using the quantity fifi supplied, but substituting the known strength of lemon juice for the unknown but weaker strength of sour orange) in one gallon of water dilutes the citric acid concentration to 0.15%. It's certainly true that very small quantities of ingredients can make a huge difference in qualitative results (just add a teaspoon of dish detergent to your gallon of brine if your don't believe me), but 0.15% citric acid is 1/30th the strength of a ceviche recipe. The comparison to actual pickling stretches it more, since pickling solutions are usually about 5% acetic acid, which is much more powerful than citric acid, and uses a more concentrated brine to boot.

Now, having said all that, I think the Colonel's idea for saucing is great. I'd bump the sour orange in your brine to 1 cup and do the sauce, too.

I also think you should borrow that pH meter and let us know what the values pre- and post-OJ are.

One last thing: I don't know a whole lot about organic chemistry, but I know that pH is not nearly the whole story on acid/base strength. We should be careful to draw too many conclusions without additional information.