118 replies to this topic

[albiston]

Furthermore, the cream addition is IMO something that got into the recipe to make life easier for lazy cooks: no time or too sloppy to get your carbonara properly creamy? What the fuck, just pour some cream in there and hey pronto! problem solved. That makes me particularly angry.

Albiston,

I agree wholeheartedly: cream shouldn't be used, and it's a lazy way of making the dish. I heard an interesting theory as to how cream got mixed up in there. WW II GIs who were fond of the dish, returned to the States and, in order to recreate the creaminess of the sauce, turned to...cream. Don't know if it's true, but it's certianly a colorful idea.

David

David,

nice of you to join the discussion: the WWII GI role in the history of carbonara is an intriguing one in many aspects. Some even argue that they invented the dish, though that's quite improbable, as we discussed some time ago. I have my doubts about the cream story too.

My suspicion is that the trick started to be used in big hotel kitchens to make the dish more manageable in those conditions. There's even supposed to be a recipe from the early 50's coming from the Accademia della Cucina Italiana calling for some cream. Don't know if it's true, but if it were, the history of the GI going back home and using cream would sound less believable.

[David Leite]

My suspicion is that the trick started to be used in big hotel kitchens to make the dish more manageable in those conditions.

albiston--I think you nailed it right there. But even if the academia has a cream-based recipe, I'm still a purist.

I have a question for some of the people on this thread (and it may be the start of another thread): What is your opinion of Grana Padano vs. Parmigiano-Reggiano? And I mean good, properly aged (18 to 24 months) Grana Padano. Not this 12-month stuff they try to pawn off as "Poor Man's Parmigiano-Reggiano."

David

[albiston]

eunny,

those ravioli look absolutely fantastic.

great job!

[Adam Balic]

eunny - the pictures look great. I have seen similar egg stuffed raviolo recipes, except the egg is placed into a nest of ricotta (or similar cheese), sauce is very basic, sage and butter or butter and spices.

[sassybat]

eunny, your pics are making me drool at my desk, which is making me fear for my keyboard. ever since i read about your egg yolk ravioli, i've been waiting to see how they turned out. thanks for sharing!!

here are my personal carbonara preferences:
bacon (i don't know san diego well enough to find a place that has pancetta)
garlic, minced and sauteed with olive oil
whole eggs, i don't add extra egg yolks
no onions or shallots
parmesan
lots and lots of black pepper

[jogoode]

I made my egg ravioli yesterday.  It's so gorgeous outside, pics will have to come later...it was delicious and pretty successful, though there are lots of tweaks that could be made.

...

It's no egg yolk ravioli -- thanks for the pictures, eunny! -- but I made my first carbonara tonight after lurking on this thread.



I used pancetta, linguini (all I had on hand), one whole egg and an extra yolk, pecorino romano, and parmigiano. And ground pepper.



It was very successful!



I had some scallop scraps left over from the other night, so I seared them in the pancetta fat and added a little jus.

[...tm...]

eunny, I'm so glad you let us all know the proper timing on the egg yolk ravioli. I had done a lazy cook's try at a similar thing when I ran out of filling before I ran out of my pasta sheet, but I cooked the egg yolk raviolo with the rest of the ricotta ravioli and it came out overdone. So thank you for saving me further experiments.

As for carbonara itself, my recipe just includes the basics--guancale (or, most of the time, as this is my favorite go to I got home and I'm really hungry dish,american bacon (plus, to be honest, I like the stronger flavor of smoked bacon. I think it plays really well off the strong pecorino. I prefer subtlety in my writing and conversation and not so much in my food.) and shallots sauteed while the spaghetti cooks. The pasta cooking time also lets me warm up the egg I didn't plan ahead enough to take out of the refrigerator in warm water to bring it up to room temperature. I also grate lots of Parmigiano Reggiano and a good, strong, aged Pecorino and grind lots and lots of black pepper into this cheese mixture because it takes so long to grind it I won't have time later. I drain the pasta letting the water drain into the serving bowl, warming it and allowing me to grab some of that pasta water in case I need it later, pour the spaghetti into the warm bowl, followed by the bacon/shallots, followed by the egg, followedby the cheeses/pepper, and stirred after each addition. I usually need to add some pasta water at the end to ensure the proper, creamy consistency. If, in the beginning, I thought I wanted something a little lighter than carbonara I'll also add plento of chopped parsley in with the cheese/pepper addition, but not if I feel like a good, thick, creamy, fattening pasta dish.

And in the carbonaras that are not carbonaras category my mom has always made "spaghetti carbonara" that must have come from one of those all-american cookbooks that combines the spaghetti with bacon, onions, cheddar, parmesan, garlic and onion powder, and eggs over low heat. While carbonara it is not, it is incredibly delicious, more like a completely unshapen, rich spaghetti pie than the creamy pasta dish. It always pleased both us picky kids and my dad, a doctor who specializes in diseases of the digestive system, who is unreasonably paranoid about raw eggs and many other food products. Although I guess he's seen the worst case scenario when it comes to most foodborne illness, so I should give him a break. Plus, he ate my home-cured salmon.

[Susan in FL]

This is a great thread. I was so busy with blogging the past week, I missed it until now. Thanks everyone, for the input, advice, and interesting discussion about definition and authenticity.
Now I'm ready to soon make Carbonara for dinner, and also Eunny's Egg Ravioli as a first course some evening.

[Daniel]

eunny,

The pics were beautiful.. You have a talent for cooking as well as photography.

[Shalmanese]

I had:

1 small puddle of home made mayonaisse from my Chicken Schnitzel last night
1 small puddle of garlic cream from my Garlic Mashed Potatos last night
1 container of left over pasta from my Spaghetti Bolognaise 2 nights ago

Combine them all together, add some chopped salami I had in the fridge, a liberal grind of black pepper and some shavings of a very good organic parmesan reggiano and you get Ghetto Carbonara. But oh... my... f**king... god... is it good, I swear, it's better than the stuff I had in rome, the slight tangyness of the lemon juice from the mayo, the tiny dab of mustard, the really fucking fantastic cheese, it just brought it all together. Even that slight rubberiness you get from left over pasta contributed, being able to stand it's own against the occasional chunks of salami.

Sometimes, the most impromtu meal turns out to come out with all pistons firing exactly right... just don't ask me to figure out exactly how many grams of fat I just ate :D.

[chuck]

When I was very little my dad took an Italian cooking class at the local community center. He cooked a couple of things every month for years after that that were perfect. Bolognese and carbonara.

The carbonara was made with spaghetti, onions softened in a little butter, pancetta, black pepper, egg yolks, parmesan, chicken stock, and frozen peas. Reading all of these posts for the right way to make carbonara I can't help but think that they're all wrong. The way I had it first was the way I will think of it forever. I think a lot of people feel that way. I've seen it on plenty of menus, but I'll never order it.

I won't even mention the ingredients for the bolognese...

[elrap]

I have an idea I've been playing with for a little while now - very thin, small  ravioli filled with a dab of cream and a smallish salted, peppered and unbroken egg yolk.  The short cooking time would leave the yolk runny - plated with rendered pancetta, a drizzle of melted butter and shards of cheese.  Maybe a couple crisp-fried sage leaves.

One would get a plate of innocuous-looking ravioli with butter sauce, but would be suprised by the run of egg yolk.  A few judicious swabs of the plate, and you'd have a delicious bite on your fork.

Just an idea.  Think I'll try it tonight.

Eunny, I had almost exactly that dish as part of a cook's tour of restaurants in Los Angeles. I can remember neither the chef's last name nor the restaurant, except that it specialized in pasta and was on Westwood Boulevard. The chef's first name was Pino, and he was excellent.

Pino made the pasta fresh, and added nothing but the egg yolk. The pasta were quite large to accomodate the yolk - about the size of wonton squares. Just one was served as an appetizer. The sauce was simply butter, parmesan cheese and sage. Excellent, and thank you for reminding me of it.

I have that recipe somewhere, printed out. It sounds like your own version would make Pino's instructions superfluous but let me know if you have special interest and I will dig it out.

--L. Rap

Edited by elrap, 06 December 2004 - 04:32 AM.

[Gastro888]

A year ago in Rome, I had the best pasta carbonara - the sauce was very eggy and the pasta was coated with its velvety smooth richness. The plate of golden heaven had a balance of salt and smoke from the perfect ratio of guanciale and pancetta. The sauce was silky smooth - not a lump or a curdle in sight. Kissed with a hint of percorino this dish will forever stand in my mind as a the benchmark for carbonaras in the future.

This weekend I had my first attempt at creating pasta carbonara. I used this speciality pasta I picked up a Coop store in Florence, Italy. It is like a miniature lasagne sheet - but the width and thickness of linguini. (I apologize, I don't know Italian so I'm unable to tell you exactly what type of pasta this is. Can anyone help out?) I thought the pasta was interesting and the ridges would be provide a good contrast to the smoothness of any sauce - and catch sauce as well.

Ooh, I love grocery stores in Italy - far more interesting than the ones in States. (I'm sorry, but it is true!)





I picked up the majority of the ingredients for my pasta in Florence - from left to right you'll see the pork products I got at the central market. I asked for guanciale and she gave me two types - the one that's mostly fat is the one from the jowl portion and the circular one is the one from the center cheek. The half fat/half lean piece on the right is a verison of pancetta. I used half and half and percorino from Whole Foods Market. Dang, I shoulda gotta some percorino in Italy as well...bah.

The bowl of yolks on the left is from the local farmer's market. Note the lovely "red" of the yolks. Glorious - this is how eggs SHOULD look. When I was separating the yolks from the whites in my hands I could FEEL the egginess of the yolk. They were plump and fresh.

Sidebar: When I get my film developed, I'll post the picture of the stand where I purchased these beauties. Can I just tell you I nearly fainted from pork fat pleasure when I walked into that place? It is sheer heaven for those who love pork. Pancetta, lardo, guanciale, prosciutto...heavenly. Forget buying Italian shoes, I'll be the first in line to smuggle some pork products back into the States!

I minced the two types of guanciale and pancetta into small pieces - turns out TOO small as when I was done cooking them over a medium flame, I ended up with something closer to lardons than slightly undercooked bacon (think British breakfast - soft bacon not BLT bacon). I believe I cooked them too long as well.



Next time, I will adjust the size of the guanciale and pancetta. However, the crunchy pieces provided a good contrast to the pasta and egg in the final dish.



I cooked the pasta in salted water for 9 minutes, making sure it was al dente. After eating perfectly prepared pasta in Florence I didn't want to sully my palate by eating gummy strands of starch. (Pasta snob alert! ) As soon as it was done I drained the pasta, swirled the pasta around the pan that I used to cooked the guanciale and pancetta in so that it could absorb the browned bitts of goodness and a little bit of oil (don't worry, I drained most of it off first!), added the yolks (lightly beaten - I was worried that adding the yolks whole to hot pasta would cause them to poach - I know, worrywart and silly) then thinned the yolks with half and half, added some percorino and black pepper.



I was careful not too add too much as I destest carbonaras that are pale with excess cream/half and half. Ai ya, if I wanted to eat alfredo I would've ordered it, ya know?

And here is the final product in its messy glory.



I would've added a little bit more half and half to the pasta to get a silkier consistency. Otherwise, I thought this was a pretty good first attempt. Now I have to control myself from making it for another 2 months lest my cholestrol go through the roof!

PS: I'm still learning to use the digital camera. Excuse the not-so clear shots!

Edited by Gastro888, 28 February 2005 - 06:48 PM.

[Susan in FL]

Wonderful post, Gastro888. The end result looks luscious. My kind of food porn!
Thanks for the step-by-step.

[Gastro888]

Thanks, Susan!

I think I'll try using some prosciutto next time as well.

[sadistick]

Ok, I will try to put this in as nice a way possible....

Cream has no place in Carbonara...at least, NOT in mine!

The way we do it here, which we have learned/refined over a few trips to Italy, was for every person who is eating 1 egg yolk, and for every 2 people, 1 egg white...this ratio really allows for the 'sauce' to adhere to the pasta, but thats about it, from my experiences you dont want a sauce for carbonara, you just want the egg/cheese/bacon fat to adhere to the pasta, which it does with all that cheese and starch...

Carbonara is very basic, I have NEVER heard of or seen Onions/Garlic/Chili in a carbonara, but I am sure they would add flavour, and be quite tastey, but then it wouldnt be a Carbonara...

One place in Tuscany deglazed their pan after frying the pancetta with some white wine, which works nicely with this dish, prior to adding the pasta and cheese mixture...

Other than that, everything on here sounds right....but damn, do I ever want some Carbonara right now!

-Justin

[Susan in FL]

Even though I don't use cream in Carbonara and this has been hashed and rehashed here, I still wanted to thank Gastro888 for the great photos and post on how he/she made this "dish."

[Gastro888]

Ok, I will try to put this in as nice a way possible....

Cream has no place in Carbonara...at least, NOT in mine! 

The way we do it here, which we have learned/refined over a few trips to Italy, was for every person who is eating 1 egg yolk, and for every 2 people, 1 egg white...this ratio really allows for the 'sauce' to adhere to the pasta, but thats about it, from my experiences you dont want a sauce for carbonara, you just want the egg/cheese/bacon fat to adhere to the pasta, which it does with all that cheese and starch...

I know, I know, mea culpa!

I wasn't sure what gave that carbonara that silkiness in Rome - I figured a hint of cream or half and half. After doing some research, I saw recipes (granted, I should've done this BEFORE I make my first attempt but well, ya know... ) that called for the pasta and some pasta water to be added to pan that was used to fry up the pancetta/bacon/guanciale and then the egg/cheese combo added in. Another recipe did call for the egg whites. But wouldn't the egg whites make it curddle? Given that whites alone cook faster and the residual heat of the pasta is hot enough to cook the whites...

And I should've mentioned that I used 4 egg yolks...for me. I guess that throws the ratio off, huh?

Thanks, Susan!

[howard88]

I have eaten carbonara in Italy, pretty damn good.
I have made it myself sometimes with heavy cream,
usually without. It is such a comforting, tasteful dish and
gastro888 you're post and pictures have me wanting to
make some carbonara tonite.

[Gastro888]

Thanks and go for it howard88!

Oh, I got some proscuitto ends (well, funny looking slabs) from Whole Foods Market today. In the near future, I will attempt to make this dish with it and a combo of the guanciale and pancetta I used earlier. I'm thinking I'll scope out some other variety of pancetta as well.

Farm fresh eggs make such a difference...don't use the supermarket ones!

[sadistick]

4 egg yolks for one person??? I feel bad for your arteries

The method I use in order to not make the egg cook, is I just strain the pasta, take it off, let it cool for 30 seconds, then I add the egg/cheese on top of that, and sprinkle pancetta...

Ok, I will try to put this in as nice a way possible....

Cream has no place in Carbonara...at least, NOT in mine! 

The way we do it here, which we have learned/refined over a few trips to Italy, was for every person who is eating 1 egg yolk, and for every 2 people, 1 egg white...this ratio really allows for the 'sauce' to adhere to the pasta, but thats about it, from my experiences you dont want a sauce for carbonara, you just want the egg/cheese/bacon fat to adhere to the pasta, which it does with all that cheese and starch...

I know, I know, mea culpa!

I wasn't sure what gave that carbonara that silkiness in Rome - I figured a hint of cream or half and half. After doing some research, I saw recipes (granted, I should've done this BEFORE I make my first attempt but well, ya know... ) that called for the pasta and some pasta water to be added to pan that was used to fry up the pancetta/bacon/guanciale and then the egg/cheese combo added in. Another recipe did call for the egg whites. But wouldn't the egg whites make it curddle? Given that whites alone cook faster and the residual heat of the pasta is hot enough to cook the whites...

And I should've mentioned that I used 4 egg yolks...for me. I guess that throws the ratio off, huh?

Thanks, Susan!

[Oreganought]

Mmmmmm Carbonara....now I have to make some,soon.

Guanciale or pancetta large dice sauteed in a little olive oil and I let it
brown enough that when I take a ladle of the spagetti water and add
it to the pan it looses a little colour and doing this also deeply flavours the
water.When added to the finished dish it adds a depth of flavour I prefer.
And I would like to think that might have been done to extract all the possible
flavour considering the origin of the dish.Whole eggs and a combo of parm/pecorino and lots of large cracked black pepper....nothing else otherwise
it morphs into other villages cuisines......just look what Rome did to the dish.

Anyway,I like to heat up a large serving bowl,and at this point I would add the pasta water to the renderings giving some ceremony with the steam rising to the ceiling as I add it to the bowl,then the spagetti,a few tosses,then the egg/cheese
combo,pepper a few more tosses.......a little more cheese.....craving satisfied.

[DeVeaux]

Since pancetta is sometimes hard to find in Kansas, I use thick cut peppered bacon
that I cook in olive oil with crushed garlic. I whip whole eggs and a little sour cream and grate parmesan, romano and coarse black pepper into the egg mixture, and the toss this with the drained pasta. Then I add the bacon and serve.

[Judd Icious Hand]

First off phenominal thread. I have learned a ton and will implement these tips within the week.

The one part I am still unclear on is the eggs. For a pound of pasta, my recipe calls for 3 whole eggs and 1 yolk. It seems like the general wisdom in this thread would call for yolks though.

Would most of you ratchet up the yolks a bit and use more? Would you then use less whole eggs?

Per one pound of pasta, what would you suggest as the optimal egg combonation for carbonara?

Edited by Judd Icious Hand, 13 April 2006 - 09:22 AM.

[jsolomon]

I'm fairly surprised that no one mentions parsley in creating their carbonara. My favorite trick is to add some basil and some mint along with the parsley. Both play well with the smokey cured pork and the sharp cheese.

[sadistick]

I'm fairly surprised that no one mentions parsley in creating their carbonara.  My favorite trick is to add some basil and some mint along with the parsley.  Both play well with the smokey cured pork and the sharp cheese.

You can add basil, mint, oregano, thyme...cherbil...whatever. But it aint Carbonara

[jsolomon]

You can add basil, mint, oregano, thyme...cherbil...whatever.  But it aint Carbonara 

I'll live with the shame...

And keep in mind that my wife likes how I make it, and her happiness is critical to my well-being

[Jason Perlow]

Here's an interesting take on carbonara that I had in New Orleans at Herbsaint Restaurant:



An egg is poached and then deep fried, with guanciale bacon in large peices. When you puncture the egg, it leaks the runny yolk all over, really good.

[Chris Hennes]

Tonight for dinner I made Linguini Carbonara:

I used the Guanciale I just finished making (see Charcuterie topic for details) and use a recipe from one of Bugialli's books as a starting place. Sometimes I wonder if Bugialli ever bothers to read his own recipes: he has you saute the Guanciale over "the lowest possible heat" so that the fat all renders out "to make the dish as light as possible." But he doesn't discard any of the fat, so you just end up with a fat slick on the pasta. It tastes good, but it has a quite greasy mouthfeel. He also has you add additional olive oil, which seems completely unnecessary. And you add the garlic at the beginning of cooking the Guanciale, which causes it to brown... is that intended? I hope not: I hold the garlic out until just before combining with the pasta at the end. I also like to add a bit more egg and a lot more cheese than he calls for.

[Maureen B. Fant]

My suspicion is that the trick started to be used in big hotel kitchens to make the dish more manageable in those conditions.

albiston--I think you nailed it right there. But even if the academia has a cream-based recipe, I'm still a purist.

I have a question for some of the people on this thread (and it may be the start of another thread): What is your opinion of Grana Padano vs. Parmigiano-Reggiano? And I mean good, properly aged (18 to 24 months) Grana Padano. Not this 12-month stuff they try to pawn off as "Poor Man's Parmigiano-Reggiano."

David

You mean in carbonara or in general? If in carbonara, nothing called "padano" anything could even be in the running. The real debate, if you can call it that, is between parmigiano and pecorino romano. Pecorino is certainly the more "philological," i.e., respectful of the original dish, which comes from the hinterland of Lazio/Abruzzo, but most cooks today use a combination of parmigiano and pecorino, the deliciousness of parmigiano being difficult to deny.

Edited by Maureen B. Fant, 25 September 2008 - 11:18 PM.