925 replies to this topic

[evo-lution]

just a reminder. this is more or less the forum that invented modern bartending (egullet even spawned modernist cuisine). some of the great contributors have come and gone. thousands of people have and do lurk here as a source for their ideas and education. you will see precedents on here for an astounding amount of trends used around the world. i'm pretty sure much of the success has come from a scholarly tone and an avoidance of guru-ism.

i have a feeling that in the sous-vide topics, nathanm and vengroff, would always welcome another ratio in the hopes that their ideas scale.

if anyone wants to perform any tests, the rules of two stage dilution should apply to more than just bitters. everything should scale to liqueurs, spirits, absinthe etc...

What has this post got to do with anything? As for the bolded bit. Odd.

It's noteworthy that when most of us speak of reducing the abv, what we're really talking about is reducing the concentration and the abv. My suspicion is that the reduction in concentration may be the more important variable.

This is what I've been saying. With the abv change you are affecting flavour.

This lets us understand that if we add one dash of 75% bitters to the one cocktail and two dashes of 37.5% bitters to another cocktail, the amount of aromatic and flavorful molecules we are contributing to each cocktail is the same

No. It's not. They both have their own flavour profile. Which takes me to my last point on this subject...

I think we all agree that:

4) Two dashes of the same bitters in a glass will make a different drink than 1 dash.

And these bitters at two different abvs (or concentrations if you must) are different.

Edited by evo-lution, 31 December 2011 - 03:40 PM.

[slkinsey]

This lets us understand that if we add one dash of 75% bitters to the one cocktail and two dashes of 37.5% bitters to another cocktail, the amount of aromatic and flavorful molecules we are contributing to each cocktail is the same

No. It's not. They both have their own flavour profile. Which takes me to my last point on this subject...

You have had plenty of opportunities in this discussion to assert that the dilution to bottle proof causes a chemical reaction such as louching, filterable precipitation, etc. that permanently changes the chemistry of the bitters. And several other people have suggested that this might be the case. Since you have not made such a claim, your entire argument is predicated on the supposition that the dilution to bottle proof changes the flavor profile in a permanent and characteristic way that endures through further massive dilutions into other liquids simply by virtue of having been diluted in the bottle.

I hope you understand that flavor and aroma perceptions are created through the sensation of certain molecules at certain concentrations. And I hope you understand that if, for example, 83 parts per million of quinine produces a certain taste sensation, it doesn't matter how the quinine molecules got to have a concentration of 83 parts per million. A simple water and quinine solution that started out at 83 ppm will taste exactly the same as one that started out at 166 ppm and was diluted down to 83 ppm. The reason they taste the same is because the chemistry is the same.

When we make a bitters infusion we have created a solution containing water and ethanol and the various flavorful and aromatic molecules that resulted from the infusion. In this context, the water and ethanol are effectively flavorless/odorless and what we care about are the flavorful and aromatic molecules. If there is no chemical reaction or other effect of dilution such as louching, precipitation, etc., then the ratio of these flavorful and aromatic molecules will not change with respect to each other no matter how much the solution may be diluted. For example, if the original solution has 100 mg/l of Molecule A and 50 mg/l of Molecule B (a 2:1 ratio) and is then diluted by 100%, the new solution will have 50 mg/l of Molecule A and 25 mg/l of Molecule B (also a 2:1 ratio). We can dilute this solution as much as we want, and the ratio of Molecules A and B will always be 2:1 unless something causes one of them to drop out of solution.

If we were to do a chemical analysis of your 75% bitters to look at the aromatic and flavorful molecules, we could see that it has, say, 100 mg/l of Molecule A and 50 mg/l of Molecule B and 20 mg/l of Molecule C and so on. When we make a 100% dilution, so long as this reduction in abv doesn't cause any of the aromatic and flavorful molecules to come out of solution, the 37.5% solution now has 50 mg/l of Molecule A and 25 mg/l of Molecule B and 10 mg/l of Molecule C and so on.

So, let's say that one dash = 1 milliliter. 1 ml of the 75% solution will contain 0.1 mg of Molecule A and 0.05 mg of Molecule B and 0.02 mg of Molecule C and so on. 1 ml of the 37.5% solution will contain half as many of each flavorful and aromatic molecule: 0.05 mg of Molecule A and 0.025 mg of Molecule B and 0.010 mg of Molecule C and so on. This is not fundamentally different from the dilution of ethanol with water (except that when we dilute ethanol we tend to express the amount of ethanol in terms of volume rather than mass).

So now we're putting dashes of these solutions into a cocktail. If we use one milliliter of the 75% solution, we are dosing the drink with 0.1 mg of Molecule A and 0.05 mg of Molecule B and 0.02 mg of Molecule C and so on. If we use two milliliters of the 37.5% solution, we are also dosing the drink with 0.1 mg of Molecule A and 0.05 mg of Molecule B and 0.02 mg of Molecule C and so on, because we used twice as much solution. This means that the same amount of aromatic and flavorful molecules will be present in both drinks, and the only chemical difference between the two cocktails will be that the one dosed with the 37.5% solution will contain an additional 1 ml of water.

This is basic chemistry and mathematics. If you don't understand this or willfully persist in insisting that it isn't so, I don't think there is any basis for those who do understand these things to continue this conversation with you. All I can suggest is that you refer this question to a chemist. I should hasten to add that there are any number of possible explanations for your observations that would be entirely valid. For example, if you are not making your comparisons in a properly controlled way there is the huge issue of confirmation bias. On the chemistry side, as several of us have suggested, there could be chemical changes that result from the reduction in abv (most likely certain molecules precipitating out of solution). This seems like a fairly likely explanation. I haven't even said that what you claim to observe doesn't happen. I and others here have mostly taken exception with the reasons you have given to explain your observations, because those explanations simply don't hold up according to really very basic scientific principles.

[evo-lution]

Quite unbelievable really.

I and others here have mostly taken exception with the reasons you have given to explain your observations, because those explanations simply don't hold up according to really very basic scientific principles.

What reasons are these? All that is happening is a bunch of people over-complicating something that is very simple, and then bringing all sorts of random equations and ratios to somehow try and suit their side, which is still missing a simple fact - that at the two abvs described throughout they will have very different flavour profiles. You can twist these words how you want, the point stands. These are two concentrations of very flavourful liquid, at two wildly different abvs/profiles/concentrations/flavour/whatever you want to call it.

The other factor is that those saying I'm wrong have admitted throughout they haven't actually tried this out. If I could really be bothered I'd send you samples of numerous bottlings and it may start making a little more sense.

Back to an earlier statement I quoted already;

I think we all agree that:

4) Two dashes of the same bitters in a glass will make a different drink than 1 dash.

...plus these aren't the same bitters as they're (hypothetically) bottled at differing abvs. Again, by abv, that relates to profiles/concentrations/flavour/whatever.

*EDIT - Apologies to those that have had to read this as it did get tiresome a little while back, and also apologies if I've not explained this properly, but it is really simple.

Edited by evo-lution, 01 January 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[slkinsey]

What reasons are these? All that is happening is a bunch of people over-complicating something that is very simple, and then bringing all sorts of random equations and ratios to somehow try and suit their side, which is still missing a simple fact - that at the two abvs described throughout they will have very different flavour profiles. You can twist these words how you want, the point stands. These are two concentrations of very flavourful liquid, at two wildly different abvs/profiles/concentrations/flavour/whatever you want to call it.

No one has disputed that these two concentrations of very flavorful liquid taste different at those concentrations.

But you are effectively asserting that equal concentrations of the same original very flavorful liquid taste different depending on whether the original very flavorful liquid was diluted in one step or two steps. The fact that you are either unwilling or unable to speak to the scientific underpinnings of the question doesn't lend credence to your position.

The other factor is that those saying I'm wrong have admitted throughout they haven't actually tried this out. If I could really be bothered I'd send you samples of numerous bottlings and it may start making a little more sense.

It's disingenuous for you to suggest that the only way someone can test your claims is to "really be bothered" to make their own high proof bitters, especially if you can't "really be bothered" to send over a small amount of your own high proof bitters which is already prepared. 50 ml of 75% abv bitters would be more than enough for testing purposes, and it can't be any more expensive or time-consuming for me to make a batch of high proof bitters than it would be for you to drop a little bottle into an envelope.

Generally speaking, the burden of proof lies with the person making extraordinary claims that go against accepted scientific principles. And in this case, that person would be you. As I posted above, as a result of this discussion I unscientifically tested the effect of proof using some highly concentrated ~50% abv commercial bitters as the base (for the record: Bittermen's Xocatl Mole at 53% and Dutch's Colonial Cocktail Bitters at 52%). I took some of each and diluted them with an equal measure of water. The ~25% abv bitters tasted different from the ~50% bitters out of the bottle, as we would expect. But cocktails made using a single dose of the ~50% bitters tasted identical to those made using a double dose of the ~25% bitters. This is precisely what we would expect, given the fact that the tested cocktails had effectively identical chemical compositions. Why you don't understand or won't accept this is a mystery to me. Have you ever studied chemistry?

If you believe that there's something magically different about 75% compared to 37.5%, then maybe that makes my informal testing irrelevant. If that's the case, then it's incumbent upon you to demonstrate this. If you want to clear the controversy entirely, then as someone who presumably has plenty of 75% bitters lying around, you should send some 75% bitters over. I'll even split the shipping cost with you. We will dilute the bitters here with distilled water, and I'll arrange to get together with suitably reputable testers (e.g., well known bartenders and writers, etc.) to conduct a series of double blind triangle tests to determine whether or not it is possible to distinguish between cocktails made with one dose of 75% bitters and cocktails made with two doses of the same bitters diluted to 37.5% in the bottle with distilled water. If you're willing to put your reputation where your mouth is, shoot me a message and we'll set it up.

But before you go to that trouble, have a conversation with a chemist. Surely you must know someone over there with a university degree in chemistry.

[Shalmanese]

75% bitters briefly become 37.5% bitters before they become a drink as they dilute out into a limited volume of the drink. Imagine this as a thought experiment: Your drink has a hollow piece of ice that holds 2mL of water in it and, as you drop 2mL of bitter into the drink, it accidentally hits that cup of ice and mixes into 37.5% bitters. 5 seconds later, you stir the drink and that 37.5% bitter disperses into the drink.

Unless you're willing to make the statement that how you apply bitters to a drink can make perceptual alterations in the flavor, then you must admit that this drink will taste identical to the ones where the 75% gets dashed straight in.

[Tri2Cook]

Unless you're willing to make the statement that how you apply bitters to a drink can make perceptual alterations in the flavor, then you must admit that this drink will taste identical to the ones where the 75% gets dashed straight in.

Unless the 37.5% bitters tastes different than the 75% bitters for reasons caused by but not directly related to the dilution.


If reducing the ABV of the original 75% bitters to 37.5% by adding water causes changes to the flavor profile due to various possible scenarios that have already been mentioned, then it seems like the two will continue to taste different no matter how you go about constructing a drink with them. They've been changed at a base level that isn't going to repair itself through any carefully arranged drink construction. I don't know the science behind bitters and have no idea what the change in flavor profile in the lower ABV bitters is caused by but I don't see any way carefully arranging drinks to make the concentration match in both would matter if they taste different going in due to whatever happened during the original dilution... unless the difference is entirely and solely due the reduction in ABV and nothing else. I won't swear that I didn't miss it but I haven't seen a post where Adam made a specific claim as to what was causing the flavor change is the lower ABV bitters, just that they are different on a level that is not recoverable through drink construction methods. So the test should be easy, take whatever bitters you have and cut a portion of it to half it's original ABV... then go to it. If the change is based solely on the level of dilution, then what you start with shouldn't matter. Should it?

[slkinsey]

Unless you're willing to make the statement that how you apply bitters to a drink can make perceptual alterations in the flavor, then you must admit that this drink will taste identical to the ones where the 75% gets dashed straight in.

Unless the 37.5% bitters tastes different than the 75% bitters for reasons caused by but not directly related to the dilution.

Precipitation of select flavorful and aromatic molecules would be the way this might happen. Other reactions are unlikely.

I and several others have suggested this possibility a number of times, and Adam has stuck to his guns that abv is the deciding variable. To wit:

Sam and I are assuming that when you dilute to bottle strength that nothing louches or precipitates out. Obviously if flavor components become solids in suspension or settled to the bottom of the dasher, then the flavor of the two end drinks could well be different.

The same product at two differing abvs taste differently, it's that simple!

There have been ample opportunities for someone interested in having an honest and open discussion to say that they do see louching at dilution, or to observe that additional sediment that has to be filtered off appears while the bitters is resting post-dilution. Everyone on the other side of the question would then have understood that some irreversible change in the chemical composition had taken place as a result of the dilution. I have even said that I think it is likely that something like this may happen. But I assume louching or additional sedimentation would be easy for a busy bitters maker to observe, and we have to assume that if Adam were being forthright in his engagement in this discussion this is an observation he would have mentioned. I assume that he has been forthright and has not deliberately withheld such observation, and so we have to note that quite the opposite has been the case thus far in the discussion. Rather than bringing forward the possibility of certain molecules precipitating out of solution at dilution, he has suggested (as above) that only the abv is important.

Edited by slkinsey, 01 January 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[Tri2Cook]

There have been ample opportunities for someone interested in having an honest and open discussion to say that they do see louching at dilution, or to observe that additional sediment that has to be filtered off appears while the bitters is resting post-dilution. Everyone on the other side of the question would then have understood that some irreversible change in the chemical composition had taken place as a result of the dilution. I have even said that I think it is likely that something like this may happen. But I assume louching or additional sedimentation would be easy for a busy bitters maker to observe, and we have to assume that if Adam were being forthright in his engagement in this discussion this is an observation he would have mentioned. I assume that he has been forthright and has not deliberately withheld such observation, and so we have to note that quite the opposite has been the case thus far in the discussion. Rather than bringing forward the possibility of certain molecules precipitating out of solution at dilution, he has suggested (as above) that only the abv is important.

Fair enough. I won't pretend to know what Adam does or doesn't wish to share regarding the specific science involved so I'll go back to my corner and continue to be a casual observer.

edited to remove excessive quoted material

Edited by Tri2Cook, 01 January 2012 - 01:26 PM.

[evo-lution]

he has suggested (as above) that only the abv is important.

Not once have I said that only the abv is important (though ultimately the final abv is the deciding factor in the strength/taste of a product, in this instance bitters, following their initial production stage).

What I have said is the same product (as originally produced) diluted to two differing abvs will taste differently, as each abv has its own profile. You've agreed with this so we can move on from that...

If you're willing to put your reputation where your mouth is, shoot me a message and we'll set it up.

It is quite incredible that someone, who admittedly still hasn't carried out anything vaguely resembling what is being discussed, can be so sure of something even though there are numerous quotes from yourselves that contradict what you've been saying and agree with the original point I've been making throughout.

Even in the last couple of posts, you've contradicted yourself to ridiculous extremes, also making embarassing and condescending statements, most recently regarding what I may or may not know. Has it ever crossed your mind that as someone who has been producing a product line for quite some time that these sort of comparisons are huge considerations? That I wouldn't carry out a variety of tastings/etc. during the development stages?

Most of what has been said by yourself thus far has been made by way of assumption. That's not something that really rocks my World but let's play...

Now this isn't necessarily what has been discussed, but I assume you have a bottle of Angostura Bitters? Decant 1oz then add 1oz of water. Have a taste of this diluted Ango versus the Ango as they are bottled. Very different don't you think? Now what changed? That's right, the abv. Funny that.

Now, prepare two identical drinks, let's say a G&T as I've mentioned this already, with one of these drinks containing 2 dashes of Angostura, the other containing 4 of the diluted Angostura. Look at the colour first. One is darker yeah? Then have a taste. And you're still willing to claim they taste exactly the same?

Edited by evo-lution, 01 January 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[slkinsey]

If you're willing to put your reputation where your mouth is, shoot me a message and we'll set it up.

It is quite incredible that someone, who admittedly still hasn't carried out anything vaguely resembling what is being discussed, can be so sure of something even though there are numerous quotes from yourselves that contradict what you've been saying and agree with the original point I've been making throughout.

Really?

As I posted above, as a result of this discussion I unscientifically tested the effect of proof using some highly concentrated ~50% abv commercial bitters as the base (for the record: Bittermen's Xocatl Mole at 53% and Dutch's Colonial Cocktail Bitters at 52%). I took some of each and diluted them with an equal measure of water. The ~25% abv bitters tasted different from the ~50% bitters out of the bottle, as we would expect. But cocktails made using a single dose of the ~50% bitters tasted identical to those made using a double dose of the ~25% bitters. This is precisely what we would expect, given the fact that the tested cocktails had effectively identical chemical compositions. Why you don't understand or won't accept this is a mystery to me. Have you ever studied chemistry?

Just repeated the experiment making a tequila Old Fashioned with 5 ml of Bittermen's Xocatl Mole bitters in one sample versus 10 ml of diluted-down (5 mi of bitters plus 5 ml of water) Bittermen's Xocatl Mole bitters in the other sample. They were indistinguishable.

[evo-lution]

Really?

Yes. You may have missed this bit;

"...still hasn't carried out anything vaguely resembling what is being discussed."

[slkinsey]

Diluting 50% bitters to 25% doesn't vaguely resemble diluting 75% bitters to 37.5%?

[evo-lution]

I do wonder if you have read anything that's been said, it seems apparent to me that you haven't because all I see is repeated assumption, and/or speculation, based on things that weren't posted. Very odd.

What I said in posts 840, 842 and 844 (and following) stands. Now read what was said there, and then read your post #845. If you'd taken the time to maybe ask me to qualify what I was saying instead of the usual lecture post which had no relevance to what was said previously (as I point out at the beginning of post 847) this wouldn't have went over three pages. Post #851 may also be of some help with regards what I've been saying.

Anyway, as much fun as this conversation has been...

Edited by evo-lution, 01 January 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[Shalmanese]

Now this isn't necessarily what has been discussed, but I assume you have a bottle of Angostura Bitters? Decant 1oz then add 1oz of water. Have a taste of this diluted Ango versus the Ango as they are bottled. Very different don't you think? Now what changed? That's right, the abv. Funny that.

Now, prepare two identical drinks, let's say a G&T as I've mentioned this already, with one of these drinks containing 2 dashes of Angostura, the other containing 4 of the diluted Angostura. Look at the colour first. One is darker yeah? Then have a taste. And you're still willing to claim they taste exactly the same?

I just did this and could taste the difference in the pure bitters but absolutely no difference in the finished drink (color wise or taste wise). I'm willing to wager $100 USD that you couldn't either in an adequately controlled, double blind study.

[evo-lution]

I just did this and could taste the difference in the pure bitters but absolutely no difference in the finished drink (color wise or taste wise). I'm willing to wager $100 USD that you couldn't either in an adequately controlled, double blind study.

Right...

Edited by evo-lution, 01 January 2012 - 09:02 PM.

[Shalmanese]

I just did this and could taste the difference in the pure bitters but absolutely no difference in the finished drink (color wise or taste wise). I'm willing to wager $100 USD that you couldn't either in an adequately controlled, double blind study.

Right...

I'm serious about this wager. PM me if you want to talk terms.

[Frederic]

So are the two camps best summed up as this?

1) math and chemistry. the final number of molecules in your drink determines the flavor perception
2) initial dilution means everything. molecules are perceived differently even if the math in the glass adds up in the end. it just is.

[ChrisTaylor]

Cigar bitters. Is this something worth DIYing?

[thirtyoneknots]

Cigar bitters. Is this something worth DIYing?

You have to be extremely careful infusing tobacco into alcohol. People can get very, very sick that way.

[brinza]

I know nothing about the science behind all this but I've been following this conversation and I think the difficulty for this outside observer arises from the fact that somewhere along the line everybody abandoned the discussion and set out to prove they're right. What I'm getting from it is that Adam is saying if you use bitters at two different ABVs, you will get two different tasting drinks. Others are arguing that if you do x+x-y with this one and x-x+y with that one, you will get two drinks that will be perceived as equal in taste. Adam is saying that the point is that nobody using the two bitters is going to do all of that stuff, they're just going to dash it in regardless because who really thinks about the ABV of the bitters when they grab them from the cabinet and goes to scientific lengths to correct for the differences. Others are saying "ah, but you can minimize the perceivable differences if you really want to and think it through". It seems to be an argument of possible vs. practical... nobody is going to have the final word on this one no matter how long it goes on. It is entertaining and informative though.

You said it. The whole discussion seems more like it's been set out to invent a problem rather than solve one. If you've ever witnessed homeopaths trying to argue their case . . .

[Old Block]

Interesting thread this...

Now, prepare two identical drinks, let's say a G&T as I've mentioned this already, with one of these drinks containing 2 dashes of Angostura, the other containing 4 of the diluted Angostura. Look at the colour first. One is darker yeah? Then have a taste. And you're still willing to claim they taste exactly the same?

I find this a very flawed example, if you want to test the 2 drops of angostura versus 4 drops of 1:1 angostura:water don't use a drink that has a variable amount of dilution from ice! Unless you can guarantee that you used the same volume of consistent quality ice at exactly the same temperature etc etc. I would also contend that the colour would be exactly the same (once you stir it in of course) for the same reasons as the taste would be exactly the same.

The second you mix the drink the ice is obviously diluting everything, including the bitters solutions, and when you're using only 1-2 mls of bitters, in a glass filled with ice, it's not going to take much of a difference in the melting rate of the ice in the two drinks to totally skew the results.

To test it in a cocktail situation surely you would have to exclude ice from the equation since we can never have total control over it, and at these quantities it's too big a factor. It may not be ideal but wouldn't using chilled ingredients for, say, a Manhattan and chilled water to dilute be a much better way? In which case yes, the two would theoretically taste slightly different (as one will have 2 drops more water to dilute the tasteful parts) but i defy anyone to be able to taste the difference between the two.

Anyway, that's all kind of irrelevant to the original discussion. I won't claim to have all that much knowledge about making bitters, is simply diluting pre-made bitters with water to get a new bitters with half the ABV really representative of how you would go about making two different strengths of the same flavour bitters? If so then I don't see how there is even a debate here..

You have to be extremely careful infusing tobacco into alcohol. People can get very, very sick that way.

And it would be against the law to sell it I think. Even to give it away in a bar would be pretty risky legally speaking I'd imagine, but whatever you get up to in the privacy of your own home is nobody's business but your own...

[EvergreenDan]

Recommended reading by Darcy O'Neil, Art of Drink, on the topic of tobacco infusions. It's "sobering."

[evo-lution]

I find this a very flawed example

I'm going to assume you didn't try, as it seems you didn't read the pages prior as well.

The discussion started in reference to diluting bitters to a specific bottling strength, the effect adding water/altering abv will have on the flavour, and the methods employed when adding water to dilute the original maceration. That's about it really...

Recommended reading by Darcy O'Neil, Art of Drink, on the topic of tobacco infusions.

It's crazy how many bars/bartenders are still preparing tobacco infusions even though advice such as Darcy's has been widely circulated. Even crazier how many wish to extract the flavour of cigarettes?!?

Edited by evo-lution, 05 February 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[Old Block]

I find this a very flawed example

I'm going to assume you didn't try, as it seems you didn't read the pages prior as well.

The discussion started in reference to diluting bitters to a specific bottling strength, the effect adding water/altering abv will have on the flavour, and the methods employed when adding water to dilute the original maceration. That's about it really...

Recommended reading by Darcy O'Neil, Art of Drink, on the topic of tobacco infusions.

It's crazy how many bars/bartenders are still preparing tobacco infusions even though advice such as Darcy's has been widely circulated. Even crazier how many wish to extract the flavour of cigarettes?!?

I never tried to go into the depths of how the debate started, I was simply pointing out that the example you used was poor for obvious reasons.

I'm not a smoker, and never have been, but have on occasion have enjoyed a couple of wheezy, girlish drags of a fine cigar and can see why people might want to try use the flavour in a drink. Cigarettes are just a bastardized form, like RTDs. Anyway, off topic.

[Mjx]

. . . .

It's crazy how many bars/bartenders are still preparing tobacco infusions even though advice such as Darcy's has been widely circulated. Even crazier how many wish to extract the flavour of cigarettes?!?

Not sure what you mean when you say 'the flavour of cigarettes'. Quite a few things have an extremely attractive (I realize this is subjective) tobacco note, and it isn't surprising that someone would want to play with that a bit, and enhance it by infusing tobacco (in this instance, I'm not speaking of a smoky note, but the actual scent of, say, loose tobacco).

Tobacco is so strongly flavoured, it effectively contributes its scent in amounts tobacco that are way below that which would be toxic: I've done this with ganache/truffles.

I used a government publication (Nicotiana tabacum L) the monograph Smoking and Tobacco Control Monograph No. 9 Chemistry and Toxicology (Hoffmann, D. and Hoffmann, I.) as references, and to be on the safe side, used the toxicity level for children as a guideline (no children ate these, I was just being careful, and yes, everyone knew that tobacco was a flavouring ingredient); the actual amount I used was, incidentally, way below the safe level, because it was not difficult to tell that the maximum safe level would have made the end result inedible.

One can start from the assumption that guidelines for working with potentially toxic substance should be based on the fact that there are many careless imbeciles out there, but... I don't know. Careless imbeciles will always find a way to menace the population, regardless of attempts to regulate risk.

What I'm saying is that I think a reasoned, rather than an emotional response is called for, when considering tobacco infusion (for the record, I've never smoked, and grew up in a family of anti-smokers).

[evo-lution]

I never tried to go into the depths of how the debate started, I was simply pointing out that the example you used was poor for obvious reasons.

If you had read through, and/or at least tried what I suggested, those obvious reasons may just have made a little more sense instead of working on assumption. The only reason the debate went across three pages was because of this. "What I assume," versus "What I've tried." Not really interested in going over it again.

What I'm saying is that I think a reasoned, rather than an emotional response is called for, when considering tobacco infusion (for the record, I've never smoked, and grew up in a family of anti-smokers).

I'm not sure how you've established that my comment was based on emotion and not through reasoning, I've spoken on this subject many times before having tried a number of tobacco infusions made by various people, not one of which tasted any good. The specific reason I mentioned cigarettes is because, for the most part, the taste they offer is not one I'd want transferred into a drink. Cigars yes, but I'd take a real cigar on the side any day of the week.

I used to smoke, and every so often still have the occasional cigar, so can completely understand why someone would like to add some of that flavour however there's an obvious flaw in what's happening, burning tobacco and cold-compounded tobacco are two wildly different beasts. If it's the flavour of loose-leaf tobacco that someone is after, there's a host of ways they could do that because, as you point out, many spirits/botanicals/etc. have a tobacco note.

Should you want tobacco aromatics without the inherent dangers then I see no reason why anyone would look further than Perique at this moment in time.

[Shalmanese]

If you had read through, and/or at least tried what I suggested, those obvious reasons may just have made a little more sense instead of working on assumption. The only reason the debate went across three pages was because of this. "What I assume," versus "What I've tried." Not really interested in going over it again.

I have tried. As far as I can tell, you have not. If you have, there's $100 in it for you if you're willing to try again and you are right.

[Mjx]

. . . ., I've spoken on this subject many times before having tried a number of tobacco infusions made by various people, not one of which tasted any good. . . .

It sounds as though alcohol extracts something that is fairly unpalatable: In ganache, the scent was distinct, but I noticed no added bitterness, so I'm guessing that the fat extracted/carried flavour far less efficiently than it did aroma (a bit in the way that an enfleurage does in perfumery). How do small quantities of fluid lipids mix in drinks? Are there any bitters that are at least partly oil-based?

[Shalmanese]

however there's an obvious flaw in what's happening, burning tobacco and cold-compounded tobacco are two wildly different beasts.

I wonder if anyone's tried to distill tobacco smoke into liquid smoke the same way they do with hickory? Alternatively, on the food side of things, if anyone's tried tobacco instead of tea for tea-smoked style foods. Both seem like potential ways to get burnt tobacco flavor into things.

edit: also, if doing a flaming float of high proof, tobacco infused liqueur would bring out some of the toasted notes.

Edited by Shalmanese, 07 February 2012 - 12:26 AM.

[evo-lution]

I have tried. As far as I can tell, you have not. If you have, there's $100 in it for you if you're willing to try again and you are right.

I haven't? That's interesting.

Are there any bitters that are at least partly oil-based?

Are you speaking of oils in this regard - http://www.baldwins....ential-Oils/344 - ?