25 replies to this topic

[MatthewB]

I've searched & read (or re-read) all of the previous threads--that I could find--covering this topic.

Here's where I'm at & I'm wondering if anyone might correct me if I've strayed . . .

Background: The SO's parents are building a new house. They've been asking about kitchen appliances, etc., so we sat down with them yesterday & discussed where they were at. They'd like a 36" gas cooktop, a stand-alone single oven, & a stand-alone microwave. I offered to do the research & provide them with recommendations. They said, "Go for it!"

My "draft" recommendations:

Cooktop = DCS CS-364GD (36" w/ 4 burners & griddle--he likes to grill outside, so they're not very interested in the grill option, & she doesn't want 6 burners)

Oven = DCS WO-130 (30" single oven--she doesn't want two ovens, unless the price to go to two doesn't jump significantly)

Microwave = Build a recessed enclosure that would take any lower-powered microwave--she only uses the microwave for reheating

Some questions . . .

Might the DSC CT-365 (36" drop-in cooktop) be worth considering? (I'm not hearing that they really want a griddle)

Are the DCS ovens electric or gas? (Comments on electric vs. gas for an oven?)

Anyone know if DCS double-ovens are priced as not to jump significantly from the single-ovens? (Edit: I Googled & found pricing.)

Is the Viking micro-chamber worth considering for "stand-alone microwave aesthetics"?

What should I be considering for ventilation, etc.?

Anything else that I should be paying attention to that I've not covered above?

Edited by MatthewB, 07 July 2003 - 07:32 AM.

[Fat Guy]

Might the DSC CT-365 (36" drop-in cooktop) be worth considering?  (I'm not hearing that they really want a griddle)

IMHO, cooktops are not for serious cooking. If you want to be able to abuse the equipment -- and if you're not going to do so, there's no need to buy at the DCS level of the market anyway -- it shouldn't be attached to a piece of Corian.

Are the DCS ovens electric or gas?  (Comments on electric vs. gas for an oven?)

They make both, but I'm pretty sure in wall ovens they only make electric. There aren't many gas wall ovens out there. I think electric is superior -- you'll rarely find a pastry kitchen in a restaurant equipped with anything but, because they're just more precise.

Anyone know if DCS double-ovens are priced as not to jump significantly from the single-ovens?  (Edit:  I Googled & found pricing.)

They're not twice as expensive, but you don't get the second oven for $1 either. Still, I think this is a worthwhile expenditure. Just being able to have one oven for warming and the other for cooking makes it so much easier when you're entertaining.

Is the Viking micro-chamber worth considering for "stand-alone microwave aesthetics"?

What for? Microwaves are essentially disposable. Just get a Half Pint and stick it off on the corner of some countertop somewhere. Anything more than that is a waste of money.

What should I be considering for ventilation, etc.?

Don't skimp on ventilation. It's really hard to convince people of the importance of good ventilation, but quality of ventilation may be the biggest difference between professional and amateur kitchens. You should, if you can afford it, get a serious hood and have it professionally installed -- and if you can get an HVAC person to look at your space and judge your needs in advance, even better.

Anything else that I should be paying attention to that I've not covered above?

What's the scope of your inquiry? Are you also responsible for dishwasher, refrigerator, etc.?

Also, what kind of cooking do these people do? Are they serious or is all this DCS stuff going to be wasted on them?

[guajolote]

What should I be considering for ventilation, etc.?

Don't skimp on ventilation. It's really hard to convince people of the importance of good ventilation, but quality of ventilation may be the biggest difference between professional and amateur kitchens. You should, if you can afford it, get a serious hood and have it professionally installed -- and if you can get an HVAC person to look at your space and judge your needs in advance, even better.

If you're going to be making pizza there, good ventilation is a must.

[Peter B Wolf]

What should I be considering for ventilation, etc.?

Don't skimp on ventilation. It's really hard to convince people of the importance of good ventilation, but quality of ventilation may be the biggest difference between professional and amateur kitchens. You should, if you can afford it, get a serious hood and have it professionally installed -- and if you can get an HVAC person to look at your space and judge your needs in advance, even better.

If you're going to be making pizza there, good ventilation is a must.

Make sure 'Ventilation' does not just mean 'Exhaust'.
Proper fresh air supply is often overlooked. That HVAC person is needed.
"Air exchange" is the keyword here!!

To quote FG: "get a serious hood and have it professionally installed -- and if you can get an HVAC person to look at your space and judge your needs in advance, even better."

I also recommend to look into local building codes and Fire Dept. for proper insulation between stove/oven, cabinets and backwall. And, as FG says: 'Counter-top material'.

[Fat Guy]

Have a look at our resident expert's take on ventilation: Maximum Suck, from The Daily Gullet.

[slkinsey]

Have a look at our resident expert's take on ventilation: Maximum Suck, from The Daily Gullet.

Sigh... one of the few things I hate anout living in Manhattan is that we are not allowed to have hoods that vent to the outside, so we're stuck with those wussy things that just blow the smoke and vapors around the apartment.

Matthew, don't overlook Dynasty. They make excellent professional-style ranges for the home, and they have a wide variety of cooktop configurations available. I know several Dynasty owners, and all have been very happy with their choices -- so much so that I will probably try to get a Dynasty some day.

[MatthewB]

Thanks everyone for helping me think this through.

Before going into brands & whatnot, I'm thinking that a couple of FG's questions should be handled:

What's the scope of your inquiry? Are you also responsible for dishwasher, refrigerator, etc.?

I think that dishwasher, fridge, etc. should be included in this discussion. The "interior designers" that have been advising on the kitchen are, well, interior designers.

Also, what kind of cooking do these people do? Are they serious or is all this DCS stuff going to be wasted on them?

I think this is the most important question, at this point.

They're very interested in what *I* would want. But that's very inappropriate for their kind of cooking. To complicate it, the designers seem to have convinced them of 36" cooktop, etc.

Here's what I'm thinking . . .

Outline three scenarios.

Scenario 1: What I'd do. (Induction cooktops included!) They want to see it, so I'll show them. But I'll steer clearly away from this.

Scenario 2: What they say they want. (See my original post.)

Scenario 3: What I think is appropriate for them given what I know of how they cook & what they've expressed.

On "scenario 3," I'm thinking the following:

30" gas cooktop (4 burners) w/ approximately 12,000 BTUs per burner.

Double electric oven.

Thoughts, suggestions, etc. on this outline & direction?

Edit: grammar

Edited by MatthewB, 07 July 2003 - 09:00 AM.

[Fat Guy]

So it sounds as though there's no good reason to spend $4000 on a double DCS wall oven when you can get a perfectly good mid-range consumer-priented unit for $1000-$1500 and something very good (like a KitchenAid) for $2000. It doesn't seem they'll ever beat on it enough, or use the broiler enough, for it to make a difference. And cosmetically, you've got to remember that to most people DCS stuff looks ugly. You get into other brands, you have a choice of color, the emphasis is on appearance not utility, etc. Which is why most people are happier with middle-market consumer appliance brands, and people who care a lot about appearances tend to go with sleek European stuff. My suggestion would be that you look at KitchenAid as a good brand for this level of cook. Nobody is ever going to call a KitchenAid a piece of crap. The units are sufficiently powerful, sturdy, and reliable for pretty serious cooking. And they look good. I'm a big fan of KitchenAid for every kind of appliance, especially dishwashers. So why not just coordinate the whole kitchen with KitchenAid everything? You can probably negotiate a good deal if you buy a ton of KitchenAid stuff all at once.

[Marlene]

Most of my appliances are KitchenAid including the two separate wall ovens I have. The ovens rock. Seriously. The side by side fridge is actually large enough to put things in, including the freezer.

Kitchen aid is great!

[Dave the Cook]

So it sounds as though there's no good reason to spend $4000 on a double DCS wall oven when you can get a perfectly good mid-range consumer-priented unit for $1000-$1500 and something very good (like a KitchenAid) for $2000. It doesn't seem they'll ever beat on it enough, or use the broiler enough, for it to make a difference. And cosmetically, you've got to remember that to most people DCS stuff looks ugly. You get into other brands, you have a choice of color, the emphasis is on appearance not utility, etc. Which is why most people are happier with middle-market consumer appliance brands, and people who care a lot about appearances tend to go with sleek European stuff. My suggestion would be that you look at KitchenAid as a good brand for this level of cook. Nobody is ever going to call a KitchenAid a piece of crap. The units are sufficiently powerful, sturdy, and reliable for pretty serious cooking. And they look good. I'm a big fan of KitchenAid for every kind of appliance, especially dishwashers. So why not just coordinate the whole kitchen with KitchenAid everything? You can probably negotiate a good deal if you buy a ton of KitchenAid stuff all at once.

I was about to suggest KA or Thermador (which is a little pricier, but maybe worth looking at because they have a different design aesthethic). Like KA, no one will look down their nose at Thermador.

Also, to elaborate on FG's note about gas ovens and pastry: I'm not sure it's the accuracy problem (the thermal mass of a decent oven would mitigate much of this) so much as the fact that a byproduct of natural gas combustion is water vapor. This presents obvious problems in baking.

[fifi]

This is a daunting task, MatthewB. Let me suggest something I did when designing my kitchen. My architect is great but can't boil water so it was up to me.

First, I did a thorough look-back at what and how I cook. I even kind of kept a diary for about 2 months. (Piddling cooking for periods of time, I live alone, with intermittent cooking orgies with friends and family. Cooking is a form of entertainment for me/us so that justified in my mind going high end on my appliances. I don't play golf, after all.)

Second, I did a real lookback on what I had in my kitchen that I had, what I liked, what I didn't. (Even though this was a "high end" patio home, the gas burners sucked, I regretted not getting the second oven, I really wanted a griddle, indoor grills need not apply, no island for others to help and kibitz, but the walk-in pantry was a wonder.)

Third, once I had the basics I got into details and I found several surprising things. (I hate upper cabinets because I am short. Out with the upper cabinets. I hate groveling in lower cabinets, drawers are in.) I even got into cooking patterns to see what should go where. (Which way the fridge door opened became a big deal. After a few days' analysis the opening direction favored toward the "getting snacks, drinks, etc." direction rather than the cooking area. I am organized in my cooking and get all stuff together mise en place style, so I am not in and out of the fridge when cooking but guests are.)

Only then was I ready to start picking appliances. (I chose GE Monogram, by the way. The smaller oven that can proof bread, make yogurt, etc. caught my eye, but service was a big issue.)

That was my process and in my imagination, I am pleased with the outcome. (It is not built yet, but my friends and I continue to mentally walk around in it and we haven't changed anything in the last couple of months.) I am suggesting that that analytical process might work for you. A kitchen is a very personal thing and I don't think anyone would come out with the same answers I did. You might want to guide them through the process and then lead them to THEIR choices. Then if they end up not liking something, they can't blame YOU! GOOD LUCK.

[MatthewB]

OK, these suggestions are making more sense for this situation. (To me, Aristotle's concept of prudence seems right here--pun intended.)

So . . .

KitchenAid & Thermador.

What about the GE Profile line?

Others?

[MatthewB]

Great post, fifi. Thanks.

You hit the nail on the head . . .

You might want to guide them through the process and then lead them to THEIR choices. Then if they end up not liking something, they can't blame YOU! 

Thank goodness that they've already decided on layout, etc. My only advice on layout & such was to position the second sink--on the island--near the fridge rather than on the other side of the island where the second sink is next to the primary sink & far away from the fridge. (Comments?)

Now, to help them get to what *they* want!

Edit: clarity

Edited by MatthewB, 07 July 2003 - 09:41 AM.

[Marlene]

My cooktop is a 36 in thermador and I quite like it. Keep in mind though that electric cooktops are not that easy to clean!

[Peter B Wolf]

This is a daunting task, MatthewB. Let me suggest something I did when designing my kitchen. My architect is great but can't boil water so it was up to me.

First, I did a thorough look-back at what and how I cook. I even kind of kept a diary for about 2 months. (Piddling cooking for periods of time, I live alone, with intermittent cooking orgies with friends and family. Cooking is a form of entertainment for me/us so that justified in my mind going high end on my appliances. I don't play golf, after all.)

Second, I did a real lookback on what I had in my kitchen that I had, what I liked, what I didn't. (Even though this was a "high end" patio home, the gas burners sucked, I regretted not getting the second oven, I really wanted a griddle, indoor grills need not apply, no island for others to help and kibitz, but the walk-in pantry was a wonder.)

Third, once I had the basics I got into details and I found several surprising things. (I hate upper cabinets because I am short. Out with the upper cabinets. I hate groveling in lower cabinets, drawers are in.) I even got into cooking patterns to see what should go where. (Which way the fridge door opened became a big deal. After a few days' analysis the opening direction favored toward the "getting snacks, drinks, etc." direction rather than the cooking area. I am organized in my cooking and get all stuff together mise en place style, so I am not in and out of the fridge when cooking but guests are.)

Only then was I ready to start picking appliances. (I chose GE Monogram, by the way. The smaller oven that can proof bread, make yogurt, etc. caught my eye, but service was a big issue.)

That was my process and in my imagination, I am pleased with the outcome. (It is not built yet, but my friends and I continue to mentally walk around in it and we haven't changed anything in the last couple of months.) I am suggesting that that analytical process might work for you. A kitchen is a very personal thing and I don't think anyone would come out with the same answers I did. You might want to guide them through the process and then lead them to THEIR choices. Then if they end up not liking something, they can't blame YOU!  GOOD LUCK.

FiFi, You should enter the dark world of 'Professional Kitchen Designer'.
Your thinking it out is proper and makes sense.
I have worked in professional kitchens, where the layout and aquisition of equipment/appliances was done first and then a menu made. Completely wrong!

[MatthewB]

Spoke with SO's mother & she's sent the designers off to look into KitchenAid, Thermador, & GE Monogram.

[arlene]

Let me second the notion of Monogram. I've had Thermadore, Subzero and Miele and while they're basically functional, the service issues on the Subzero are unbelievable, the body integrity of the Thermadore is questionable and the Miele is just terrible.

GE has the best service record of any major manufacturer of kitchen appliances. Nuf said (and Monogram is very good looking)

Edited by arlene, 08 July 2003 - 06:43 PM.

[Fat Guy]

KitchenAid has very good service, and I think most of the KitchenAid products are better than the comparable GE units -- especially the refrigerators and dishwashers.

[arlene]

Have you had experience with both?

[Fat Guy]

Both dishwashers, direct personal experience. KitchenAid dishwashers are just fantastic. They clean the crap out of stuff, and they're amazingly durable. I laugh at other dishwashers. Even the really expensive European ones don't do as good a job -- they may look nicer, save energy/water, and be slightly quieter, but KitchenAid kicks ass. In terms of refrigerators, I'm going by what I've seen at my friends' houses. My friend Ken has the big KitchenAid fridge -- the one that's a Sub-Zero knockoff, with the panels you can insert to match decor. It broke one day. The next day they showed up and replaced the whole thing. And in terms of the interior ergonomics, I just like the KitchenAid a lot. Although, if you're looking to save money, Maytag makes very good refrigerators that are basically free compared to the high-end units.

I've also done a bunch of cooking on a KitchenAid stove, and for a residential stove it's really good. The burners are very powerful. I don't love the grates -- too slippery compared to the cast-iron grates on a pro-style stove -- and the controls take some getting used to, but overall it's totally workable and very attractive.

[Dana]

I have a DCS cooktop in my kitchen just waiting to be installed (hopefully next week). Due to the present configuration, a drop-in or stand-alone stove is cost prohibitive at this time (1 kid in grad school, one in college) - too much renovation. I will let ya'll know how great it is in a few weeks. I got the 5 burner model with the power burner in the middle and paid about $1600 at EXPO.

I wouldn't have any other dishwasher except Kitchenaid. I have NEVER rinsed a plate or anything else that's gone in it. Everything's always sparkling clean.

[Fat Guy]

The trick is to use that center burner for all your most aggressive cooking. What you see time and again with cooktops, when they're in the homes of serious cooks, is that the couple of inches of countertop surrounding them gets the crap beaten out of it -- especially in front if it's a drop-in cooktop as opposed to a professional-style cooktop aka rangetop. But if you're careful, certainly the performance of a DCS cooktop is going to be comparable to a DCS range.

[jaynesb]

Might the DSC CT-365 (36" drop-in cooktop) be worth considering?  (I'm not hearing that they really want a griddle)

IMHO, cooktops are not for serious cooking. If you want to be able to abuse the equipment -- and if you're not going to do so, there's no need to buy at the DCS level of the market anyway -- it shouldn't be attached to a piece of Corian.

Fat Guy, was your comment specific to gas ranges/cooktops?

I've got electric only, am starting to think about a kitchen remodel and was considering putting in a cooktop and a double wall oven. But after your comment, should I be considering an electric range plus a single wall oven? (My current range is a 24-inch Miele convection that can't hold most standard-sized cookware and it's a real pain so I wanted to be sure I understood what you were saying before I create a new problem for myself.)

jayne

Edited by jaynesb, 02 June 2005 - 12:35 PM.

[Darcie B]

The trick is to use that center burner for all your most aggressive cooking. What you see time and again with cooktops, when they're in the homes of serious cooks, is that the couple of inches of countertop surrounding them gets the crap beaten out of it -- especially in front if it's a drop-in cooktop as opposed to a professional-style cooktop aka rangetop. But if you're careful, certainly the performance of a DCS cooktop is going to be comparable to a DCS range.

I never even thought of that issue before. Were most of the countertops you have encountered Corian, Formica, or some other material?

I have a white electric drop-in cooktop that is surrounded by whiteish Corian. I have cooked pretty seriously on it for two years using cast iron, Le Creuset, and heavy copper pans and haven't noticed anything getting beat up. I'm pretty clumsy, too, and actually expected to break the cooktop by dropping a full dutch oven on it or something. Maybe my cooking isn't as serious as I think, maybe I'm just lucky or maybe tomorrow the whole front lip of the counter will fall off, but I haven't had this problem in my home. Now I'm paranoid (well more paranoid)...

[deltadoc]

I have a 48" Thermador Professional cooktop, one of the originals made for Thermador by DCS, and it is mounted on Fieldstone maple and oak base cabinets between, but not supported by, a 3/4" Corian countertop. My vent is a 1200 cfm Vent-a-hood. While it was all professionally installed, they never mentioned a replacement air system. I found out about that from a HVAC contractor when I put in a closed air furnace and gas water heater.

So, I open the front door and a couple of windows even when it is -30 F out~!

Been no problem with the Corian in close vicinity of the cooktop. It has a total of 90K BTU (4 burners, grill and griddle).

I find the grill to be pretty lame at 15K BTU, but the 1/2" SS griddle works just fine.

The burners are all 15K BTU too. The wok doesn't heat on the burners as well as it should, but then real Chinese woks run up to 100K BTU!

doc

[Dana]

After almost 2 years of cooking on my DCS cooktop, I still love it. the only issue I have is the little rubber feet on the grates. They have split/come loose, and really need to be replaced.

zzmy KitchenAid dishwasher is the best ever.