138 replies to this topic

[rickster]

I've made croissants a number of times and after an initial terrific success using a Jacques Torres recipe from Dessert Circus, I've had the same problem with sponginess instead of flakiness in experimenting with other recipes, but have suspected the issue is something in the technique rather than the recipe. I've wondered whether overproofing could be part of the cause. Also, I have been suspicious of recipes that recommend putting pans of water in the oven for steam (ala RLB whole wheat croissants). Intuitively, this would seem to result in sponginess rather than flakiness, but I could be wrong. FWIW, the worst ones I ever made were the whole wheat ones from the Pie and Pastry Bible.

[RuthWells]

Well this is the first time I've written in egullet. I'm a little intimidated by everyone's skill level so please be patient. I'm trying to get croissants down. I've tried a few recipes, it seems that the traditional amount of butter rolled in is 28% of the detrempe. So far my croissants are flaky and tasty but distinct layers are lacking. When I try to peel my croissant apart ( my preferred way of eating them!) I don't get the really thin layers, instead they seperate where I rolled them up.
Also most recipes say to cut the triangles and then stretch the triangle out further, why is this.
I really want to understand the science of a really good croissant as well as shaping techniques and recipes. Speaking of which has anyone tried the whole wheat croissant from the Pie and Pastry Bible, are they heavy?
Looking for flaky perfection,
Hannah

Hi Hannah! I tried croissants for the first time a few months ago, using the recipe and technique from Baking with Julia. I found the instructions very clear and easy to follow, and I got great results. If you have the book, or can get it from the library, I highly recommend it.

I'm having trouble picturing where you feel you're going wrong -- could you say a little more about the texture you're getting, or better still, take a picture for us?

[kjohn]

It sounds like you overworked the dough or didn't allow sufficient rest time. If you develop too much gluten, things get spongy.

[fiftydollars]

Could you be turning the dough before it has had enough time to rest/cool?

whenever I rush the turns I tend to get indistinct layers.

I usually have to rely on the feel and firmness of the dough instead of just the time. It takes about 45 minutes to one hour for me to get it cold enough to turn properly. If the dough is turned too quickly, before the butter has time to set, the layers just blend together when folded. Don't rush the turns and be sure the dough is ready even if it takes a little longer.

[rickster]

This is very interesting. I know I tend to rush the turns, being impatient. May also be working the dough too much too. Thanks for the input!

[melmck]

If you are adding additional flour as you roll out between turns, this will definitely create the spongy texture. Try to use AS MINIMAL flour as possible, just barely enough to keep from sticking to the surface and tearing the dough. I work with the dough and butter very cold, straight from the fridge but pounded out until it is pliable enough to bend. I do the roll-in, and first turn on day 1. On day 2, I do 1 more turn and roll it out, shape it, freeze it.
I also use half AP flour and half cake flour, sifted.

[andiesenji]

I also rely on pounding instead of rolling and keeping the dough very cold and using as little additional flour as possible.
I use a large Silpat mat laid on a marble slab. If the weather is quite warm, I place several of the blue ice packs on the mable to chill it as much as possible.

[Wendy DeBord]

Hello Hannahmontana, welcome to the eGullet Society For Arts & Letters. I hope everyones input has been helpful for you? If you have any further questions please don't hestiatate to ask them...........and please don't feel shy or intimidated.


I've never made croissants. I do seem to recall seeing some beautiful croissant photos from Melmeks bakery..........didn't Anne rave about them?

[piazzola]

Hi all
contrary to melmck I use the highest protein flour I get my hands on

[Woods]

Well this is the first time I've written in egullet. I'm a little intimidated by everyone's skill level so please be patient. I'm trying to get croissants down. I've tried a few recipes, it seems that the traditional amount of butter rolled in is 28% of the detrempe. So far my croissants are flaky and tasty but distinct layers are lacking. When I try to peel my croissant apart ( my preferred way of eating them!) I don't get the really thin layers, instead they seperate where I rolled them up.
Also most recipes say to cut the triangles and then stretch the triangle out further, why is this.
I really want to understand the science of a really good croissant as well as shaping techniques and recipes. Speaking of which has anyone tried the whole wheat croissant from the Pie and Pastry Bible, are they heavy?
Looking for flaky perfection,
Hannah

I would advise to just keep making them over and over. They freeze well and squirrels love them (as do people at church coffee hours). I have found the most important factors are letting it rest between turns. Thant is, not a rest acording to time but until the gluten is relaxed-poke it. You have to let it sit out for a short while before you turn it or the beurrage will shatter, although you can still make fine croissants if it does. If you keep making them you will begin to get a sense of when the beurrage is plastic and how much pressure to use etc. Only Martha acheives perfection but repetition is how you get there. I have a recipe that works well if you are interested, however, its not so much the recipe as technique.
Good luck. Woods

[capers]

[quote name='Woods' date='Aug 27 2005, 03:16 AM']

"I have a recipe that works well if you are interested, however, its not so much the recipe as technique."

Well, I'm interested.

Edited by capers, 27 August 2005 - 12:23 PM.

[Apicio]

If you are french literate there is a thread in the French forum on making croissants at home. Or even if you are not, the photos are pretty informative. Here is the link:
http://www.forums.su...lete_photo.html

[hannahmontana]

If you are french literate there is a thread in the French forum on making croissants at home.  Or even if you are not, the photos are pretty informative.  Here is the link:
http://www.forums.su...lete_photo.html

[hannahmontana]

Oops, I'm a little embarassed, I think I just quoted some one rather than writing a reply, I hope this works!
First thanks for all the replies, they have been really helpful. Practise does help and co-workers will eat anything free. I should have taken pictures of my last batch. They are improving. Someone told me a great trick for the egg wash-strain it and put it in a spray bottle. It works really well.
I think my problem had to do with some hot weather. Summer in Montana can be very hot- it was in the 90's. I've been using the bread bakers guild recipe-Team USA-I believe from 2000.I think I was using to much dough and I couldn't roll it out fast enough before the butter started to goosh into the dough rather than stay in distinct layers.
Mell- why do use 1/2 cake flour and 1/2 AP? Is it to cut back on the gluten?
I also think that I was using a bit to much flour when I was rolling out the dough.

How does everyone feel about shaping croissants. Do you put the noche in the end to facilitate a more crescenty croissant? A lot of books including Julia talk about stretching the triangle before you shape it-why? And what size of croissant does everyone prefer, after baking (either in ounces or by inches)? big as your head ones or little guys?
Thanks again for all the hints help
Hannah

[kitwilliams]

Did I dream it or is this true: that in France, croissants are not curved if they are all-butter, crescent shaped only if they contain at least a percentage of some other fat?

For what it's worth, I don't do the crescent shape.

[Mottmott]

My favorite sticky bun from Standard Bakery in Portland ME is 400 miles away. What makes them special is that they use croissant dough, not brioche. So I've decided to do the deed and make croissant dough for the first time. And I need help. I'm using the recipe in Baking with Julia.

Yesterday I did the first stage, mixing flour, yeast, milk, salt, sugar. As far as I can tell, it hasn't risen at all. Is it supposed to be visibly risen before you do the butter thing? I certainly don't want to go through adding the butter if my base dough won't fly.

I think these are the two possible sources of the problem, if it is a problem:
--My house is pretty chilly. The kitchen was probably about 65f.
--I didn't have any active yeast, so I checked in Beranbaum who suggested subing 2 tsp of instant yeast for 1 oz of the active. When I saw the dough didn't appear to have risen, I did do a sugar water/yeast check to be sure it was alive and it grew foamy.
--I did add the salt and yeast to different parts of the bowl, then whisked it about before adding the milk.

Oh, and one other odd thing, when I was kneading in the KA, the bowl kept "hopping" and jumping off the the spindles that hold it in place. I had to manually restrain the bowl during the kneading period. The resultant dough seems rather dense and hard. Could my flour measurement be off? This recipe doesn't give weight measurements so I used a scoop to fill the cup and then swept it level.

[chiantiglace]

wow.....


It seems you have all sorts of problems. So I guess I'll break it all down for you

Sounds like you added your yeast and salt together too soon. Salt goes in at very end, after you've slightly mixed the dough. Wait until its in large chips.

Also sounds like your dough was too tough. Although i've had to restrain my KA before too.

sounds like you didnt have enough yeast. This is what were looking at. If fresh compressed yeast is at 100%, then active dry is 50% of that and instant dry 33%. So if you need 10 oz fresh compressed, sub 5 oz of active dry or 3.3 oz instant. 33% of 2 oz does not equal 2 tsp. Its more like 3.5 tsp. weight is always your best option.

When using instant dry add it to the flour not the water. Add all your liquid ingredients in the bowl first. Then your dry (flour and yest) mix for about a minute and then add your salt. Finish mixing for however long necessary. Remember active dry and fresh both get added to the water when making dough.

its not too big of a deal what temp your house is, just takes longer to rise. You will see a change eventually. At 65 degrees it will probably take 2 hours to rise. possible a little more.

If you need a more accurate recipe using weights, let us know.

[sugarbuzz]

I'd suggest getting your hands on Le Brea's croissant recipe. I can't remember which cookbook it's from but well worth the time & effort to track it down. It's very simple & fast. The dough is wonderful to work with and makes a great morning bun.

[Char]

I'd suggest getting your hands on Le Brea's croissant recipe. I can't remember which cookbook it's from but well worth the time & effort to track it down. It's very simple & fast. The dough is wonderful to work with and makes a great morning bun.

Pastries from La Brea bakery.

But croissant dough is a soft dough (puff pastry is rather dense) so if your dough was dense and hard and the mixer was hopping, it sounds like your measurements were off. After mixing, the dough only needs an hour-long rest before it's ready to roll and it should be a little poofy but not blown up.

You used instant yeast, which should be added to the dry ingredients, not the water.

Lastly, did you scald the milk before adding to the dough?

If you need the recipe from La Brea, let me know. It's wonderful, makes a very pliable but sturdy dough, and is best made within one day.

[Mottmott]

wow.....


It seems you have all sorts of problems.  So I guess I'll break it all down for you

Sounds like you added your yeast and salt together too soon.  Salt goes in at very end, after you've slightly mixed the dough.  Wait until its in large chips.

Also sounds like your dough was too tough.  Although i've had to restrain my KA before too.

sounds like you didnt have enough yeast.  This is what were looking at.  If fresh compressed yeast is at 100%, then active dry is 50% of that and instant dry 33%.  So if you need 10 oz fresh compressed, sub 5 oz of active dry or 3.3 oz instant.  33% of 2 oz does not equal 2 tsp.  Its more like 3.5 tsp. weight is always your best option.

When using instant dry add it to the flour not the water.  Add all your liquid ingredients in the bowl first.  Then your dry (flour and yest)  mix for about a minute and then add your salt.  Finish mixing for however long necessary.  Remember active dry and fresh both get added to the water when making dough.

its not too big of a deal what temp your house is, just takes longer to rise.  You will see a change eventually.  At 65 degrees it will probably take 2 hours to rise.  possible a little more.

If you need a more accurate recipe using weights, let us know.

Yes, thanks, it would be useful to have the recipe in weight measures. I think I need to scrap what I have and begin again.

It's really confusing when you are teaching yourself to bake. It would be so much easier if ALL recipes had weights included.

I picked the recipe in Bkg w/Julia because so many here said it was a good one. The recipe says, "Put the yest, flour, sugar, salt, and 1 cup milk into the bowl of a mixer fitted with a dough hook." So I did. I did THINK about the salt/yeast/death issue, but heh, this was a Julia endorsed recipe, so I just did it. Clearly wrong.

About the flour. I understand that a cup of flour's weight depends upon how it is put in the cup. And as I have a scale I could bypass that, but even the question of how much a cup should weigh is confusing. What weight should I use as standard for the different kinds of flour? As nearly as I can tell the Bkg w Julia seems to call for 5 oz/cup, Reinhardt 4 oz/cup, Silverton 4. As BWJ called for scoop and sweep in the intro, that's the method I used. But I suspect there was too much flour.

Yeast? The Julia book does not say how to substitute active dry for cake yeast - though it does say that when substituting SAF for active dry to use 25% less SAF. So I turned to Beranbaum; typically, she has a convenient little highlighted conversion chart: "To convert recipes calling for fresh compressed yeast to instant yeast: Use 0.32 times the weight; or, for 1 packed Tbs (21 grams) fresh yeast, use 2 tsp instant yeast." OK. Was I wrong to assume that 1 oz compressed (fresh) yeast [as called for in the croissant recipe] is equivalent to 1 packed Tbs fresh yeast? Because I did assume, based on Beranbaum, that using 2 tsp of the instant would give me the equivalent of the oz of fresh yeast. It's not that I didn't do my homework, it's that I did it dummy-style, I guess.

When I go out today I will buy some compressed, fresh yeast if I can find it. But even so, the recipe instructions call for just putting it all in the bowl together. No proofing with sugar in water or milk. Oh, it's all so confusing, so intimidating!

Sugarbuzz, I do have Nancy Silverton's book, but that recipe would have called for making some country white bread so I could use some of that dough in the croissant dough - just absolutely too much for my first try, even though I wouldn't have had to start with the grapes as I have some sourdough starter (thanks Jackal) in my fridge. I've put her on the shelf for a later try. Or could I have skipped making the country white and just popped in some of my sourdough starter after refreshing it?

I think baking and breadmaking are really difficult when you are teaching yourself. Perhaps breadmaking most of all. I used to make a loaf from Joy of Cooking when my kids were young and I've used Jackal's sourdough recipe with an acceptable result. With your help croissant dough will not defeat me.

Edited for typo

Edited by Mottmott, 09 November 2005 - 11:46 AM.

[Mottmott]

I'd suggest getting your hands on Le Brea's croissant recipe. I can't remember which cookbook it's from but well worth the time & effort to track it down. It's very simple & fast. The dough is wonderful to work with and makes a great morning bun.

Pastries from La Brea bakery.

But croissant dough is a soft dough (puff pastry is rather dense) so if your dough was dense and hard and the mixer was hopping, it sounds like your measurements were off. After mixing, the dough only needs an hour-long rest before it's ready to roll and it should be a little poofy but not blown up.

You used instant yeast, which should be added to the dry ingredients, not the water.

Lastly, did you scald the milk before adding to the dough?

Signing off for now as I'm on duty to pick up my GS.
If you need the recipe from La Brea, let me know. It's wonderful, makes a very pliable but sturdy dough, and is best made within one day.

It's confusing because I did follow the ingredients carefully, except perhaps the yeast conversion from cake yeast to instant might have been off. I know the rest was as spot on as a cup of flour can be spot on. I did not scald the milk which was pretty near room temperature, but then the recipe said nothing about scalding milk.

I have the Silverton recipe in her bread book, and comparing it with the BWJ recipe I notice that hers not only calls for a piece of starter dough from the Country White Bread, but it also calls for 4 1/2 cakes of yeast to 2 1/2 lbs (10 cups) of bread flour as opposed to BWJ's 1 cake of yeast to 3 3/4 cups of ap flour (which should be a few oz more than 1 pound as her book equated a cup at 5 oz) - so the formula for Silverton's seems to have considerably more raising power. And she says nothing about scalding the milk either. Am I to take it that scalding the milk is always a good idea whether or not called for in a recipe?

I also notice that neither BWJ or Silverton calls for dissolving the yeast in the milk or scalding the milk.

As a novice bread baker, I tend to follow the recipe rather literally, but it looks as if there's a lot of background these recipes take for granted.

I appreciate the benefit of your experience.

BTW: I took the dough out of the fridge (it had said to rest it there overnight) and put it into the oven with the oven light on and it does seem to be softening up a bit after 2 hours.

It would be interesting to hear how successful others found the BWJ recipe.

[RuthWells]

Hi Mottmott,

I've made croissants exactly once, and it was using the Baking with Julia recipe and technique...... and everything came out great. I posted a lengthy about it in the Baking with Julia thread (buried somewhere here at Egullet). I'm wondering whether your yeast may be dead?

[kitwilliams]

You want the croissant recipe from "Pastries from La Brea Bakery" as opposed to "Breads from La Brea Bakery".

I agree with you completely about croissant dough making the best cinnamon rolls. In California they have become known as Morning Buns. I also prefer croissant dough for danish pastries.

[Mottmott]

Ruth, I think the yeast is alive and cooking as I did do a test with it (after making the dough ). The fault may be in my conversion from fresh yeast to the SAF.

The dough does seem to have come to life after sitting in the oven with the light on. So I may give it a go after I have a good nap.

Kit, I actually own the Pastries book, but alas it is not in my present possession. When visiting my family in Portland a couple years ago (before they moved here). I accidentally left it behind and it is now buried in some box they have not yet unpacked since moving here. I'd give up and just let them have the book, but the chances of my DIL EVER making pastry is about -100. She in fact has commissioned me to make her a bunch of pate brisee for her freezer.

And, just out of curiosity, Kit. Are you by chance a potter? There used to be a wonderful potter of your name at Wallingford.

[rooftop1000]

If someone here is still in Culinary school.....can ya get a copy of the governments weights and measures from a baking instructor??? Somewhere out there, there is an official listing of how much foodstuff should weigh compared to volume. There are listings for AP flour, cake flour, whole wheat flour, sugars, eggs etc... I lost mine about 15 yrs ago.


Tracey

[jaynesb]

Nancy Silverton's recipe for Sugar Buns which use her croissant dough Martha Stewart's website.

jayne

[kitwilliams]

And, just out of curiosity, Kit. Are you by chance a potter? There used to be a wonderful potter of your name at Wallingford.

No, I do actually bake for a living! And am of the female persuasion, unlike the British gentleman Kit Williams, author, artist and clockmaker. Is your potter a male or female Kit?

rooftop: I have a list of (some) commonly used ingredients and their weights (grams and ounces) per cup...PM me if you're interested and I'll forward it to you.

[chiantiglace]

Reinhardt Has a list in his book of weights. But you have to remember theres a large influence on human error doing that. I suggest going by the scale on everything, becuase atleast then if your scale is off, the ratio amongst all the ingredients will still be the same .

But still, I'll be in school in less than 4 weeks. First thing ill do is try and retreive a list if possible.

heres a CIA recipe.

2lb 4 oz / 1.02 kg bread flour
3.5 oz / 99g sugar
1/3 oz / 10 g instant dry yeast
.8 oz / 25 g salt
30 fl oz /.9 L milk
3.5 oz / 99g butter, soft

Roll-In
1lb 4 oz buttter, cold.

follow procedures I listed above.

[Mottmott]

I want to thank you all for your help. I understand when making something, it's a matter of whistling in tune with yourself whatever the key. What's tough for the beginner is that there are so many variables. Sometimes it's dumb stuff, like the fact that Morton & Diamond kosher salt are not the same weight per volume. (And that I seem incapable of remember which is which.)

I'm sure it's a matter of practice, practice, practice.

The potter, Kit Williams is a woman.

[rickster]

If it's any consolation, I made exactly the same recipe with exactly the same adjustments you did a few weeks ago and it was a disaster. Worst croissants I ever made. However my conclusion was that my SAF yeast was too old and I tossed it. Guess I wish this thread had been around then.