92 replies to this topic

[SteveW]

I finally made it to Ben's Best today. It's a great old neighborhood Jewish deli in Rego Park. The pastrami is excellent, but I think it would be a stretch -- a long, credibility-defying stretch -- to say it's in the Katz's category.

Steven, where would you rank Ben's Best pastrami at this point? A distant #2 or #3, if I were to guess. What kind of operating hours does Ben's Best have? If they are open 24 hours a day for example, it might not be wise to order pastrami during off peak hours(the steaming issue is very very important in getting a great pastrami sandwich).

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Steve

[Fat Guy]

I wouldn't give it any ranking -- it's just a very good deli. Even talking about it as though it's a serious contender for top deli ranking would be a mistake, in my opinion. I think this is just an Ed Levine misfire; maybe he got swept away by the allure of being able to champion an unknown place -- it's probably not as satisfying to write an encyclopedic pastrami article if all you're going to do is reiterate what everybody already knows about Katz's being the best. Certainly the pastrami at Artie's, Second Avenue, Carnegie, et al., is better than at Ben's, or they're all in some sort of "excellent-but-not-the-best machine-sliced pastrami" grouping together, trailing substantially behind Katz's.

I don't think it's a 24-hour place. It's just a neighborhood deli. But we were there at peak lunch hour on a weekend so there's little doubt we got a freshly steamed piece.

[slkinsey]

I find it hard to grasp how anything could possibly be better than Katz's. Maybe in heaven?

[pixelchef]

I know you've spoken about Montreal smoked meat numerous times in this thread Steven, but have you tried Schwartz's? If so, how do you rate it against Katz's?

[Fat Guy]

Slkinsey: It's the same phenomenon that arises when you're the best in any category: people can't stand it, especially people who write about the category for a living. It's no fun to say, "Yes, Katz's is the best. No, there's really no close second. It's just the best. No, I have no secret special places to tell you about that we deli experts keep to ourselves. I could tell you some places, but they wouldn't actually be great. You just like the idea of going to a place other than Katz's on the off-chance it might turn out to be better. But it wouldn't turn out to be better." But if it's the truth, you've just got to say it and be unapologetic about it.

[Jason Perlow]

NOTHING IS BETTER THAN KATZ.

Pastrami just doesn't exist outside Katz, think of it that way. I'll never eat it it anywhere else, it would be setting myself up for too much disappointment.

[slkinsey]

But, FG... it can be so much fun to make fun of these people when they do that...

Jason, I know exactly what you're saying. Since I find myself in North Carolina and Texas on a fairly regular basis, this is the precise reason I never eat barbeque in NYC.

Edited by slkinsey, 07 July 2003 - 09:13 PM.

[Fat Guy]

Pixel: They're in the same category of super-excellence. The first time I went to Schwartz's I thought it was excellent but not on par with Katz's. Then, the one time I did a side-by-side (yes I actually had someone drive some down from Montreal), I liked Katz's better. But the last time I was at Schwartz's, I had a truly fantastic sandwich that may have been better than any I've had at Katz's. And of course I've had sandwiches at Katz's that have covered a range of quality, as one would expect with any small-batch/natural/handmade/artisanal/whatever product. And that Snowdon Deli in Montreal is pretty fantastic as well, also in the same category, at least based on tastings a few years back (for all I know it's not even there anymore).

[pixelchef]

Thanks Steven.

I'm always quite amazed by your ability to remain objective when it comes to reviewing/critiquing food. Even though you're obviously a consummate New Yorker, you're still quite able and willing to give everyone their fair shot as opposed to remaining "loyal" to any given restaurant simply because it is based in the city you live.

To be totally honest, if someone were to ask me whether the Canadian wine is better here in Ontario or in British Columbia, I would quite automatically claim Ontario as far superior when in all likelihood they are probably quite equal. I lack the ability to remain objective.

I guess that is probably where the 'professional' aspect comes into play.

[Fat Guy]

Pixel, it's not so much a question of professionalism. Trying to be open-minded/independent is more of a personality issue. After all, we're just talking about pastrami. It's not rocket science. It's not even wine-tasting. Any idiot, with a minimum of experience, can taste two examples of pastrami or smoked-meat and know immediately which one is better, or at least be able to describe the desirable attributes of each (this one is juicier; that one is spicier). It doesn't require years of training or any special skills -- that's the beauty of being a food writer! And on a related point, you don't have to be a genius to make good pastrami. The most confounding thing about this whole issue is that there's no good reason why anybody, tomorrow, couldn't go into business and make pastrami that's just as good as Katz's or just as good as Schwartz's smoked-meat. As Alanz has indicated, and as Col. Klink will tell you, and as anyone on the barbecue-and-smoking Usenet boards will confirm, any idiot can make excellent pastrami with a little bit of training. It's not quite as easy as making a hamburger or a hot dog, but I'm similarly unimpressed with any place that can't muster up the competence to make a great one of either. And given that people are willing to pay something like ten bucks for a really good pastrami sandwich, you'd think a few more entrepreneurs would get it through their thick skulls that there's money to be made selling the good stuff, properly cured, carefully smoked, slowly steamed, and hand-sliced. Even at Katz's and Schwartz's, what's their excuse for that crap bread they serve? And the mustard isn't so great either. There's plenty of room for improvement, even at the top.

[Chef Fowke]

Pixel, it's not so much a question of professionalism. Trying to be open-minded/independent is more of a personality issue. After all, we're just talking about pastrami. It's not rocket science. It's not even wine-tasting. Any idiot, with a minimum of experience, can taste two examples of pastrami or smoked-meat and know immediately which one is better, or at least be able to describe the desirable attributes of each (this one is juicier; that one is spicier). It doesn't require years of training or any special skills -- that's the beauty of being a food writer!

But it is so much more beautiful to read an article from a food writer who has an IQ over 120! It shows in the writing, the professionalism and the open-mindedness of the articles. It is easy to write about things that are close to your heart. It is hard to be objective and truthful, as you seem to be, Steven.

[VivreManger]

Just a quick note. While you have been talking about it, I just back from a short visit to Montreal and Quebec where I have been eating it.

I sampled old fashioned smoked meat sandwiches at Snowdon Del, Schwartz's, and also bought some take-out old fashioned smoked meat from Schwartz's and the competition directly across the street for those fed up with the long-lines at lunch, the Main.

In brief in Montreal, Schwartz's remains the best, the Main is certainly respectable, though not as good. Snowdon Del, which I have long enjoyed since it is convenient to the family, is, for smoked meat, a distant competitor. Better than Ben's to be sure, which has the oldest smoked meat in Montreal and sure tastes like it.

Snowdon Del stopped smoking their own briskets about 10 to 15 years ago so the current manager of this family business, Jon Marantz, told me. They now use Lester's Old Fashioned smoked meat which he claims is made according to their distinct specifications!! He also insisted that their Lester version of the meat differs significantly from what Lester's normally makes. Just reporting what I have been told. I can offer no independent assessment of this at this moment. It will have to wait till my next trip.

Snowdon Del does have great smoked eggplant salad and good chopped liver with killer sauted onions.

After I recover from all this and other eating, I will post my asssessments of the Mtl old fashioned smoked meat I had. Unfortunately it has been too many years since I ate my last pastrami at Katz's and I have never eaten it regularly enough to form a clear basis for a trusty comparison so I can't join that fray.

I do have other classic pastrami sandwiches clearly preserved in my taste buds. The best of these -- unfortunately long-gone -- was the great thick hand-cut Rumanian hot pastrami sandwich made by Elsie Bauman and her husband -- two German Jewish refugees who after the Second World War established Elsie's in Harvard Square. Schwartz's is a spicier, albeit slightly tougher version, of that sandwich. However neither the bread nor the mustard is as good as what Elsie offered. Unfortunately Elsie's has been out of business for close to 20 or 30 years. And even before the deli finally closed, they stopped making my favorite sandwich.

Edited by VivreManger, 08 July 2003 - 09:31 AM.

[SteveW]

Something that needs to be made clear VivreManger, is that there're two Lester's companies in the Montreal smoked meat business. The commercial meat supplier(that's where the Snowdon Deli, would have their smoked meat made, if the Snowdon Deli's owner claims are true). And there's the Lester's Deli located on Bernard Street for several decades. These two Lester's are unrelated. That why in my recent posting in this thread, I said that 'Lester's [Deli] don't make their own Montreal smoked meat. They like people to think so.'

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Steve

Edited by SteveW, 08 July 2003 - 07:50 PM.

[Chef Fowke]

Um, my wife just reminded me that I have never eaten at Schwartz's sober. I find this hard to be true, my wife went to University of McGill for five years and I drove out every second weekend. I must have been sober at least once! She keeps referring to Sangria in Old Montreal and wine on Rue St Denis....


I guess I need to bow out of this thread.

[WHT]

Doesn't Chicago have some great pastrami, at a couple of their deli's? Maybe LA is another place.

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Steve

Yes Chicago dose have a couple of places for great Pastrami. The sad thing is most buy it made by either Best Kosher or Vienna Beef. So the same thing is served with mustard ad bread being the wildcards. Manny’s used to make their own in house but I think they stopped a while ago. A couple of places on Milwaukee Av still do and the lines are long.

NY is still king in my book. The water in Chicago has too much calcium and other minerals that change the taste.

[WHT]

In other words, if you give me a Hebrew National pastrami and I steam it for a good long time and slice it by hand and serve it on good rye with good mustard, and you give some other person the exact same piece of meat and he steams it only for a short time and slices it thin on a high-speed commercial deli slicer and serves it on crap supermarket bread with crap mustard, pretty much everybody will say that my pastrami is different (and better), when in fact it's the same and what people are reacting to are the post-processing steps I've taken.

This scenario plays out all the time in Chicago. Two major suppliers and 100’s of places serving it in different combinations and cooking methods. Strangely enough the same thing with Gyro meat.

[WHT]

their pastrami has this brownish coloring which I wasn't used to and might have put me off.

Can anyone confirm or deny that the reddish color we like in pastrami is due to saltpetre (sodium nitrate). that reddish color we like in certain processed meats and sausages usually comes from saltpetre/saltpeter. Bacon processed without nitrates is usually a less appetizing brown.

Also the temperature it is smoked at will make a difference in the color. If fast and hot it will be darker.

[WHT]

Well, let me qualify that a bit.  We make our own smoked corned beef (which, to my understanding, is fundamentally what a pastrami is.)

Corned Beef and Pastrami are two different things. While they both can be made from the same cuts of meat they are entirely different processes. Corned beef is a totally cold process. Lightly pickled beef would be a more accurate description.

Take the same cut of beef; soak it in a heavy brine with the following;

Black pepper (cracked and whole)
Allspice
Cinnamon
Mustard seeds or powder.
Coriander
Ginger
Mace
Dried red peppers
Cloves
Cardamom.

Let soak in a sealed container for at least a week. It can be kept for months in a sealed environment at low temp. (33-45F) Simmer, team or slow roast the meat, trim slice serve.

Pastrami as you have described is a dry rub followed by smoking. Two separate ways to keep beef around for a time without refrigeration.

[Fat Guy]

The issue is that the vast majority of commercial pastrami out there is not made via a dry rub process but is, rather, brined in much the same manner as corned beef. Only a few old-school producers use the dry rub, as I understand it. So "smoked corned beef equals pastrami" is not far off, given the reality of most pastrami. It won't give you traditional, top-of-the-line pastrami, though.

[WHT]

The issue is that the vast majority of commercial pastrami out there is not made via a dry rub process but is, rather, brined in much the same manner as corned beef. Only a few old-school producers use the dry rub, as I understand it. So "smoked corned beef equals pastrami" is not far off, given the reality of most pastrami. It won't give you traditional, top-of-the-line pastrami, though.

But if you look at the seasonings used and the overall process they are rather different. Yes you do soak the meat in brine to make Pastrami but if I remember correctly that is more from a kosher aspect than preserving the product. The seasonings have some similarities but corned beef seems to have more. Also sugar is used in pastrami as part of the rub. Not so in corned beef.

Yes both are ways of preserving the same cuts of meat. But even the definitions differ.

pastrami
noun highly seasoned smoked beef, esp. prepared from a shoulder cut
[ETYMOLOGY: from Yiddish, from Romanian pastrama, from pastra to preserve]

corned
adjective (esp. of beef) cooked and then preserved or pickled in salt or brine, now often canned

By this the reverse would seem to be correct. Heck they both make a nice sandwich.

[alanz]

WHT,

I respectfully resubmit that smoking a corned beef is fundamentally what a pastrami is.

Soaking the brisket in brine is one way to produce the corned brisket that will later be smoked. Whether the corning process is done in brine or via a dry rub is just a matter of technique... the results are virtually identical.

Also, some folk smoke the brisket for only a couple of hours, and then finish the cooking by steaming or braising later. I prefer to finish the cooking over coals in the smoker (typically 12 to 16 hours smoking time total.)

Most recipes I've seen for pastrami list corned beef as their starting point, recognizing that most folk don't want to take a week or more to prepare a dish for cooking.

As mentioned earlier, corning your own brisket lets you control the ingredients, and if you don't mind brown slices, you can omit the saltpeter that most recipes call for (which is just there to keep the meat pink.)

Regardless of the technique used, if someone has the smoking equipment, it's a great treat to have pastrami (smoked corned beef, or whatever else it might be called) straight off the cooker. If no smoker is available, then the simplicity of making great corned beef from scratch is worth the experiment... it's so simple to do.

I use a recipe from Cook's Illustrated... take a peek at:
Corned beef recipe with link to smoked corned beef page

[WHT]

I am not trying to be a yutz but I do think there is some confusion on the whole brisket issue. Using a similar form of logic all smoked brisket would be pastrami. In some ways it might even be correct. Smoking is a way to preserve meat. Going back to the root of the word and its meaning that may still hold true. The site you reference refers to the smoked corned beef as being pastrami-like. Big difference!

I took the time to call 3 major producers of meat. Hebrew National, Vienna Beef and Best Kosher. I asked the same questions and got similar answers from all of them. Does smoking corned beef make pastrami? Short answer was a resounding NO in some case preceded by laughter. One of the people asked me if I ate pastrami on white with mayo. No, that would be a crime. We laughed.

I will post the information two of the companies are sending. Probably as a link to a PDF file. One explains the history of some of the products that we have been talking about. Corned or more correctly pickled beef originates in the pre UK. Pastrami is a lot more recent process from central Europe.

While my favorite Jamaican place and BBQ joint make a smoked brisket that has a dry rub followed by long smoking, I would never call either pastrami. I have had smoked and slow roasted corned beef a couple of times. To me it is an entirely different texture and flavor. I prefer the smoked to the slow roasted in part to the higher fat saturation in the meat. I think it gives it a better flavor.

As an interesting note I did finds a few places on the web that give some strange advice for making both pastrami and corned beef. Yes, some of them did suggest using corned beef as a starter. But I tend to trust the three producers that I talked to. Other things I encountered where using a 7-bone roast and the use of shoulder meat rather than brisket. Might be interesting to try flank steak too. Mentions of other animals than beef where listed for pastrami. Buffalo was logical some of the others like alligator where a little dubious.

Eat what you enjoy is the point of it I guess.

Edited by WHT, 18 July 2003 - 02:35 PM.

[alanz]

WHT,

As for calling the product "Pastrami-like"... well that is my own personal web site, and hence my text.

I would not call any smoked brisket a pastrami. A pastrami is a corned brisket that has been coated with spices (mostly pepper) after the corning process, and then smoked... a very different taste and texture than a typical smoked brisket

[Fat Guy]

It doesn't have to be brisket. Plate is, I believe, more traditional. Having tasted Klink's smoked corned beef I can say there are marked differences between it and the traditional New York Jewish deli style of pastrami. At the same time, a good piece of smoked corned beef is to me far more pastrami-like than so many products out there in supermarkets and delis that call themselves pastrami but have never been dry-cured or smoked. So I'd say that, while smoking corned beef doesn't give you real New York deli-style pastrami, it does give you pastrami or at least something more pastrami-like than many mass-market products that call themselves pastrami.

[Chef Fowke]

Not to get off on a tangent...

Main Entry: pas·tra·mi
Variant(s): also pas·tromi /p&-'strä-mE/
Function: noun
Etymology: Yiddish pastrame, from Romanian pastrama pressed and cured meat


I have eaten goose, lamb, turkey and salmon pastrami. They were all cured with the same type of spices and pressed.

For my dollar the best pastrami is pickled flank or plate that has been spiced, smoked and pressed.

[melkor]

Just to be scientific about this, I went to cash and carry, bought a 13lb corned beef brisket, rinsed it off, coated it with a black pepper/coriander/garlic rub and smoked it at 210*F for 9 hours. After it was done I had a few slices to see how it came out - it's a definite cross between pastrami and corned beef.



I let it cool and put it in the fridge, the next day I steamed it for 3 hours before making a sammich - this definitely tastes like pastrami, no question about it. The homemade pickles complete the meal.



The other end of the brisket is significantly more marbled and I expect it will taste better than the very lean part that this sammich was made from.

[VivreManger]

melkor Posted on Jul 19 2003, 10:35 AM

corned beef brisket

These pictures are almost enough to make me run off to California and get a slice, abandoning the smoked-meat tables of Montreal and and the pastrami pots of New York.


But I do want to clarify one detail, Melkor. Did you buy a raw brisket, suitable for making corned beef or a brisket that had already been corned as you literally wrote? In other words is this from scratch or did you improve upon an already processed product?

[melkor]

melkor Posted on Jul 19 2003, 10:35 AM

corned beef brisket

These pictures are almost enough to make me run off to California and get a slice, abandoning the smoked-meat tables of Montreal and and the pastrami pots of New York.


But I do want to clarify one detail, Melkor. Did you buy a raw brisket, suitable for making corned beef or a brisket that had already been corned as you literally wrote? In other words is this from scratch or did you improve upon an already processed product?

I started with a cryovac'd corned beef brisket -- it's a processed but un-cooked hunk of cow.

[alanz]

Melcor,

When you cut some slices from the thicker end of the brisket (called the point, deckle, or second cut)... try frying the slices or grilling them.

They crisp up a bit and make a wonderful sandwich.

[alanz]

I thought I'd share one of my experiments from a few months ago,

Because I'm such a fan of corning meats, I started to wonder if anyone ever corned pork.

I really didn't find many examples, so I talked to my prime butcher, and he suggested corning pork ribs.

So, I used the technique that I described earlier in this thread and corned the ribs for 7 days (next time, I've decided I'll limit the corning to 3 or 4 days)

I then coated the ribs with pepper/coriander/garlic etc and smoked them.

I asked my wife how she'd describe the meat, and she said:

"It's pastrami on a stick" < s >

I dropped off some to Fink's Funky Chicken & Ribs (2 minutes from my home), ... for Fink and Andrew to taste.

I didn't hear back from Fink, but Andrew loved them!

Next attempt will be corning beef ribs.

Edited by alanz, 21 July 2003 - 06:05 AM.