134 replies to this topic

[Craig Camp]

have a question for you (or anyone else for that matter.) In Italy when you go into a cafe for a drink, you have to pay first and then give the counterman your little ticket when you order. Why that custom? Is the entire country a bunch of serial latte macchiato thieves?

This system works quite well. The barrista is never tied up making change an so can concentrate on the work at hand - your coffee. I do not think it is the coffee they are afraid of being stolen.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well the barrista can only write the check up so there can still be a cashier. But you are implying that the barrista can steal from the cash register by keeping money aside for himself, or by writing bills that are less then the correct amount. No matter what, I don't see how any of it prevents stealing. I can go pay for a coffee and approach the barrista with my little white receipt for a 3 euro cup of coffe and a five euro note sticking out and ask him to give me a shot of 1959 Strathisla single malt Scotch which normally costs 25 euros. So you haven't convinced me. I do not know a country in the world where you pay first. Why Italy?

[balex]

Well the barrista can only write the check up so there can still be a cashier. But you are implying that the barrista can steal from the cash register by keeping money aside for himself, or by writing bills that are less then the correct amount. No matter what, I don't see how any of it prevents stealing. I can go pay for a coffee and approach the barrista with my little white receipt for a 3 euro cup of coffe and a five euro note sticking out and ask him to give me a shot of 1959 Strathisla single malt Scotch which normally costs 25 euros. So you haven't convinced me. I do not know a country in the world where you pay first. Why Italy?

You can pay after or before. It's only when they don't know you that you have to pay first.

I think the separation between dealing with money and dealing with food is very sensible and common in Italy and elsewhere.
Coins and bank-notes are dirty. If someone is handling the food with their bare hands you don't want them to handle the money as well.

Here in Paris, the butcher has a separate person you pay, at Bon Marche you pay someone else; in London at Lidgates and many other traditional shops you pay someone else. In England you pay in a pub before you get your drinks. Why are you making a big deal about this?

[balex]

Thanks for the titles in return, vmilor. I'll add them to my list.

An old book, but one that I think is excellent on the attitude of the English and others to southern Italian life is 'Old Calabria' by Norman Douglas. A very entertaining book.

[Craig Camp]

So you haven't convinced me

The impossible dream.

[Steve Plotnicki]

It's fine to seperate the two. But what does that have to do with paying first? Paying first can only be a matter of trust.

[balex]

It's fine to seperate the two. But what does that have to do with paying first? Paying first can only be a matter of trust.

The only circumstances at which bars in Italy really insist on payment first is at places like airports and railway stations where it is clearly impractical to get people to pay afterwards if you are paying at a separate place. Again this is only if you are consuming at the bar; if you are seated you pay afterwards.

[Joe H]

Unfortunately there are now many places in the U. S. where you must pay first starting with gas stations and continuing through pay toilets. Even in Germany you leave a tip afterwads, not before. Most better American restaurants insist on either confirming a reservation by calling the diner the day of the reservation or by necessitating a call to the restaurant to reconfirm. Some restaurants that have this practice only have a couple of phone lines which make it really difficult to get through. This is a personal gripe of mine along with two and even three seatings at a better restaurant for dinner. In Europe at most better restaurants regardless of the country, the table is your's for the evening. That is definitely not true here.
I have found that many restaurants throughout Europe only need a date and time and do not ask for a confirmation. Some do, especially those in Paris, but not all. My wife and I leave on a trip tomorrow through Genoa and Florence and I have five reservations including three starred restaurants. Not a single one has asked for me to reconfirm nor to guarantee with my credit card. Three of the five did ask for a fax but I am certain this is so there is no misunderstanding because I do not speak Italian. In all five I made the reservation myself so they did not even have the security of a concierge of the hotel I may be staying at.. I find this to be really refreshing. Profitable? I don't know but as much as anything this is a commentary, I believe, on the attitude of the diner and his or her respect for a restaurant there versus here where so many really don't care.
I was struck that even El Bulli did not ask for a credit card confirmation although they did ask to reconfirm a week ahead, perhaps only because we are travelling from the U. S.

[Steve Plotnicki]

The only circumstances at which bars in Italy really insist on payment first is at places like airports and railway stations where it is clearly impractical to get people to pay afterwards if you are paying at a separate place.

This is just not true. I just had to pay first at both the bar at Peck as well as at the bar of that chic tea salon that is at the corner of via Montenapoleone and via della Spiga. In fact I cannot recall a bar in Italy where you do not have to pay first. And I have found that many restaurants in Europe demand conformation including ones in Italy. Many years ago I remember showing up at a restaurant in Firenze for dinner and they had given our table away because we had forgotten to confirm the day before. And last year when I made a reseration at Gambero Rosso for dinner, they were adamant in telling me that they would "automatically" give my table away if I did not call the day before. And as for European restaurants not turning tables, it isn't that they let you have the table for the evening out of benevolence. In many instances they don't have enough demand to turn them.

[balex]

The only circumstances at which bars in Italy really insist on payment first is at places like airports and railway stations where it is clearly impractical to get people to pay afterwards if you are paying at a separate place.

This is just not true. I just had to pay first at both the bar at Peck as well as at the bar of that chic tea salon that is at the corner of via Montenapoleone and via della Spiga. In fact I cannot recall a bar in Italy where you do not have to pay first.

I am trying to explain why the habit in Italy that in general you pay first is not such an incredibly bizarre and disfunctional thing as you want to insist. To do this I was explaining that given you have a separation between paying and preparing the coffee, which seems not only reasonable but in many ways preferable, it clearly makes sense to have people pay before they consume rather than after, and to justify that I referred to the situation where in my experience (I lived in Rome for 8 years up until 2 months ago) this rule was most rigorously enforced, and most clearly justified. I will further say that of the 8 or so bars I went to regularly the only one which _enforced_ the rule after they recognised me, was at the airport, and that seemed to be a general rule (i.e. everybody pays first, even daily customers). This together with the fact that one of the characteristics of drinking coffee at a bar in Italy (at the bar itself) is that it is very quick, should suffice to explain the existence of this rule.

There are other places where one has to pay before consumption (Starbucks and so on) outside of Italy. I agree it can be slightly inconvenient, but it is really no more strange or unusual than many other rules in England or France or America. I don't think I have anything further to contribute to this discussion.

[peterpumkino]

Steve,

I think you don’t understand Italian culture.

This would be an accurate, if massive, understatement.

For anyone who's interested, a most wonderful volume on the Italian people is The Italians by Luigi Barzini.

I agree wholeheartedly - but it's a VERY old book (I think it dates back to 1964) and things were very different in Italy then (I know, I was there then, well 1966).

[peterpumkino]

I just had to pay first at both the bar at Peck as well as at the bar of that chic tea salon that is at the corner of via Montenapoleone and via della Spiga. In fact I cannot recall a bar in Italy where you do not have to pay first.

So what? It's a very small price to pay for wonderful drinks (Averna, Grappa, Braulio, Cynar, Vechia Romagna, Aperol, Negroni - ever had these drinks?) the best coffee (ristretto) unbelievably fresh and tasty Panini. However I do hear service is quicker at Burger King so maybe you should just eat there.

Here's a good one for you to add to your 'hate list' of everything Italian.

When you are in a bar or a restaurant in Italy and you pay the bill you MUST take the bill and KEEP IT WITH YOU for about 30 yards outside the restaurant/bar otherwise they will get fined and SO WILL YOU! (it's something to do with tax evasion!). Again, so what?

[Steve Plotnicki]

You guys are the barrista apologistas. You can't compare Peck, the chicest food store in Italy and the bar they have in it with Starbucks and McDonald's. I am describing places that are supposed to give good customer service which make you pay first. Not fast food places. And for whatever reason, I have never been to a fine food establishment in the U.S. that makes you pay first other then Legal Seafood which did it because so many college kids stiffed them on the check. You will have to admit that it is typically not the custom to do this. And you are doing a poor job of convincing me that there is a valid reason like efficiency etc. for doing it and it wasn't a system created because of people stiffing places on the bill. They even had this system at St. Ambrose in NYC for awhile. You had to pay first and then order your cappucino. But it drove people mad and eventually they changed it.

Pumpkino - Indeed that is bizarre. Maybe you should just pay everyones fines if you think it's okay. And I can have all of those drinks in my hotel and they will present the check afterwards. Like other civilized establishments around the world.

The issue is that bizaare rules and regulations that make no sense end up making your country run screwy. It might not bother you but it bothers me intensely. I have no patience for them. But it even gets worse then that. Someone somewhere thinks they make the country more efficient. You know who? Lario......

Pumpkino, why not regale us with your list of Italian oddities? Make my case for me.

[Craig Camp]

Who cares why Italy is like that? Is it really that difficult to pay the cashier first? It never seems to hurt my enjoyment of my coffee. It never even seemed to be a point to really think about. I just had to figure out the system the first time I went to Italy and that was that – I never thought about it again except to explain it to first time visitors.

Part of the enjoyment of going different places is that people do things differently. Why would anyone want the world to be the same just to accomplish some minor efficiency?

[Craig Camp]

You guys are the barrista apologistas.

By the way that's funny - good line.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Who cares why Italy is like that? Is it really that difficult to pay the cashier first? It never seems to hurt my enjoyment of my coffee. It never even seemed to be a point to really think about. I just had to figure out the system the first time I went to Italy and that was that – I never thought about it again except to explain it to first time visitors.

Part of the enjoyment of going different places is that people do things differently. Why would anyone want the world to be the same just to accomplish some minor efficiency

Well hang on here. You are changing the subject. I agree with you that part of the enjoyment of going other places is to experience the change in culture, but silly man made administrative rules that aggregate to considerable inefficiency are just not charming and are really not part of the culture.

When you go to Cannes for vacation or business (which I have probably done two dozen times,) they shut the drug stores at 7:00pm at night. In fact by law, aside from restaurants, all shops are shutdown at 7:00pm. That in and of itself is a strange law but let's put that aside for a minute. This includes drug stores and pharmacists. But since Cannes is an international city and there are people visiting from all over the world all year long, and people take ill after 7:00pm, there is a drug store/pharmacy that stays open 24 hours 7 days a week. Except that it isn't the same drug store every night, they rotate. Not only that, they keep the identity of it hidden until that very day when they publish the information in the local newspaper in a very small box which is hard to find unless you know where to look.

I have experienced this mishegas (yiddish for craziness) firsthand by appearing at the concierge desk at my hotel at 7:15 in the evening with a fever that was slightly higher then 100 degress. When I asked him where I might find Tylenol at that time of night, he responded by saying "it's not so easy" and he went to get a newspaper to figure out where I had to go. Tylenol not so easy? Already you have a silly administrative rule that diminishes your time there if you happen to have the type of problem that clashes with their system. By the way, when I asked the concierge why the crazy rule about the drug stores, why not just let whichever one wants to stay open remain open and they can duke it out for market share, his response was that they are trying to keep the name and location of the drug store from drug dealers. Huh?

It doesn't happen everytime but is has happened to me on at least 3-4 occassions. I have flown into a city in either France or Switzerland and rented a car when I arrived, on those occassions they make me sign a piece of paper saying I won't drive the car into Italy. Regardless of what good things you have to say about Italy, and I can find plenty of good things to say as well, that sort of speaks for itself.

[Craig Camp]

It doesn't happen everytime but is has happened to me on at least 3-4 occassions. I have flown into a city in either France or Switzerland and rented a car when I arrived, on those occassions they make me sign a piece of paper saying I won't drive the car into Italy.

While there is little violent crime in Italy - many cars are, shall we say, borrowed permanently.

[robert brown]

http://www.coa.gatec.....k 2002-03.pdf.


See page 16.

[peterpumkino]

It doesn't happen everytime but is has happened to me on at least 3-4 occassions. I have flown into a city in either France or Switzerland and rented a car when I arrived, on those occassions they make me sign a piece of paper saying I won't drive the car into Italy.

While there is little violent crime in Italy - many cars are, shall we say, borrowed permanently.

Actually there's a whole lot less violent crime in Italy than there is in the US. WHich would you have - your car "borrowed" or your face blown off. I know which I would rather have. Admittedly I wouldn't have to wait 3 minutes for my drinks in the States.

And, just for the record, I've lived in Italy off and on for five years and NEVER (touch wood) had my car borrowed.

Talking about strange laws, there are some counties in the US where sodomy, cunnilingus etc are illegal. Boy you American must have a terrible time

[Steve Plotnicki]

What is on page 16, that Tylenol is not available in France? It isn't available in the U.K. or Italy either under that name. But it is available under the generic name which is Acetaminophen. I even have a story about this too as over the years I have sought out Tyleneol in the U.K., France and Italy. In drug stores in both the U.K. and France, they all seem to know that the generic replaces the brand name. Even at the little local drug store on Westbourne Grove. But I can recall being at the farmacia in the Pizza del Duomo in 1998 in need of Tylenol and they did not know what I was talking about and they did not know the name of the generic. They didn't even speak English. I find that astounding in what is thr single busiest location in Italy. Unfortunately, I didn't know the name of the generic either at the time so I left without anything and suffered the night away.

Well I didn't say that the U.S. doesn't have its own set of strange laws. Forget about laws relating sex because they belong in their own category. But how about not being able to buy hard alcohol on Sunday? But the U.S. doesn't specialize in the same type of funny administrative laws and customs like they do in many places in Europe.

[peterpumkino]

They didn't even speak English. I find that astounding in what is thr single busiest location in Italy.

You really are the proverbial Ugly American aren''t you? I suppose you demand the air-conditioning at EXACTLY 76 degrees at all times (even when outside!).

[jaybee]

When you go to Cannes for vacation or business (which I have probably done two dozen times,) they shut the drug stores  at 7:00pm at night. In fact by law, aside from restaurants, all shops are shutdown at 7:00pm. That in and of itself is a strange law but let's put that aside for a minute. This includes drug stores and pharmacists. But since Cannes is an international city and there are people visiting from all over the world all year long, and people take ill after 7:00pm, there is a drug store/pharmacy that stays open 24 hours 7 days a week. Except that it isn't the same drug store every night, they rotate. Not only that, they keep the identity of it hidden until that very day when they publish the information in the local newspaper in a very small box which is hard to find unless you know where to look.

How about Germany, where all the stores close at 4 or 5 pm, just when people get out of work? So everyone who has a day job has to go shopping on Saturday between 9 and 12 noon or they're out of luck. These laws were originated when women didn't work, so they could shop all day. They are 30 years out of date. It's nuts. Yet (I think) the labor unions lobby effectively to keep it that way.

[vmilor]

You really are the proverbial Ugly American aren''t you?

Please gentelmen , please.
You like it or not, I lump you in the "humanist" category.
Prior to World War One there was an internationally oriented elite which squabbled over trivialities and did not notice the simmering anger of the masses and of those who manipulated the masses. We all know the results.
Personally I am learning a great deal from the contributors to this forum and I am sure Italians, French, etc., will be equally pleased.
On a different note: there is serious literature on the Italian ability to excel in small business and fail in large scale organizations. If you are interested drop me a mail.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Gee what does the pharmacist in the Piazza del Duomo not being able to speak English have to do with me being the ugly American? One would think that in that location their clients would be diverse enough so they would be able to speak the basics in most languages. I am sure there must have been 100 people or more walk into that place asking for drugs like Tyleneol. If I owned that business, I would have a little chart with what the Italian equivalents are for the name brand drugs from other countires. But then again, we are speaking about Italy and that type of efficiency doesn't seem to be their forte.

Vmilor - I don't know if I want to read the literature but, I would be happy for you to regale us with stories of why Italians fail at big business. But they do have Olivetti and Fiat. Those seem like pretty big, and pretty sucessful businesses. And they also have Tiscali, one of the biggest Internet service providers on the continent. I know this because they used to license music that I own as their theme music and they paid molto lire for the privilage .

Edited by Steve Plotnicki, 27 January 2003 - 07:13 PM.

[Craig Camp]

Gee what does the pharmacist in the Piazza del Duomo not being able to speak English have to do with me being the ugly American. One would think that in that location their clients would be diverse enough so they would be able to speak the basics in most languages. I am sure there must have been 100 people or more walk into that place asking for Tyleneol etc.

Steve you have many good arguments but this?

I assure you the pharmacist at Michigan Ave. and Chicago Ave. in the heart of the tourist section of Chicago doesn't speak German, French, Italian or ..........................................

Someone probably speaks Spanish but that's it.

Many times I have seen tourists from Europe in the US struggling with a needed service because of limited English. New York, Chicago and San Francisco are filled with European tourists every year and they are much more on their own then we are in Europe - where in a major city if you persist you will find someone who speaks English.

Americans certainly do not have the right to to complain about people not speaking our lanquage. We are the worst in the world at it.

It Italy Berlusconi just passed a law requiring 2 foreign lanquages to be taught from the beginning of grade school. The USA is a long way from that.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Jaybee - It wasn't my point, it was vmilor's point. I was just asking him to expound on what he said.

Excuse me for saying this but, there is no equivelent between a drug store on Michigan Avenue not speaking Italian and the farmacia in the Piazza del Duomo not understanding any English. If you haven't noticed, the world works on English. Go to any Northern European country and 100% of the people speak English. This is not necessarily the case in France, Italy and Spain although in France almost everyone in a shop speaks English these days. And for it not to be the case in a pharmacy in that location is a little bit shocking to me.

As for Americans and their isolationism and not learning foreign languages, you are correct to comment that we are well behind the rest of the world about it. But it is turning out to not be such a terrible mistake as the rest of the world is converting to English as a second language.

Edited by Steve Plotnicki, 27 January 2003 - 09:03 PM.

[jaybee]

On a different note: there is serious literature on the Italian ability to excel in small business and fail in large scale organizations. If you are interested drop me a mail.

You are on your own slippery slope here. To name just a few large unfailing companies founded and operating in Italy: Ferrara isn't chopped liver, neither are several meat companies that export sausages to the US. Martini & Rossi was bought by Bacardi. Lavazza Coffee company is one of Europes largest coffe roasters and marketers. Nestlé bought two Italian candy companies (Perugena is one) for big bucks many years ago. The company that makes San Pellegrino employs over 2000 people and has annual revenues of 775 Euros in 2001. The Italians have at least one big jet engine company, several major high tech companies that have low profiles. (e.Biscom is a multi-media and interactive publishing company that went public in 2000 raising 1.5 billion Euros). Italtel sells telecom equipment all over Europe, Russia and Latin America, with 2000 annual revenues of 980 million Euro. Versace made a pretty good business selling fancy schmatas to Americans. Gucci is worth mentioning.

[vmilor]

I was just asking him to expound on what he said.

I am happy to oblige.

Sabel/Piore's The Second Industrial Divide, which was published in 1982, set up a new paradigm in organizational theory by arguing that small scale organization based on flexible division of labor and a handcraft mode of production may be more efficient and higher value added than large scale bureaucratic organizations applying standardized techniques. The case in point was Northern Italy, especially those shoe/apparel/furniture manufacturers, which were very successful, took on much larger rivals, and became market leaders. A whole new literature follows from this, but the paradigmatic case of success remains the so called Third Italy (i.e. neither the government nor the big firms).

Another very interesting book is by Robert Putnam, called Making Democracy Work, Civic Traditions in Modern Italy, published by Princeton U.P., 1993. Putnam argues that due to historical reasons the general level of trust and norms of reciprocity has been higher among northern Italians, compared to the south. He calls this social capital. Social capital lubricates economic transations because it reduces mistrust and transaction costs. As a consequence, Putnam claims that both the level of economic development and civic involvement in politics has been much higher in the north compared to the south.

jaybee is much more knowledgeable than I am about the current big business climate in Italy. When I refer to large scale organization, I primary had in mind the government, and I vaguely know that Fiat and Olivetti are not faring very well right now. At any rate, it may be possible that some large scale organizations in Italy will do very well because they will be able to spawn off many autonomous units which will cooperate to mutual benefit and encourage individual creativity.

Reading the past debate, it also strikes me that both Craig Camp and Peter P. are close and acute observers of the Italian scene, and unfortunately some of their excellent points are not being elaborated on.

Vedat Milor

[Craig Camp]

Excuse me for saying this but, there is no equivelent between a drug store on Michigan Avenue not speaking Italian and the farmacia in the Piazza del Duomo not understanding any English. If you haven't noticed, the world works on English. Go to any Northern European country and 100% of the people speak English. This is not necessarily the case in France, Italy and Spain although in France almost everyone in a shop speaks English these days. And for it not to be the case in a pharmacy in that location is a little bit shocking to me.

How do you travel? What do these people think of you?

You must have attended the Ghengis Kahn language school. Don’t bother to learn the language – just overrun them.

You will never really touch a culture without learning at least a bit of their language. Something simple like, “vorrei un Tylenol per piacere”.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Actually I do pretty well communicating in Italy. But if you haven't noticed, the problem wasn't being able to communicate I am looking for. The problem was that he never heard of Tylenol and couldn't offer me the equivelent.