134 replies to this topic

[peterpumkino]

sp says: Here is something that happened when we were there'....... etc etc etc ad nauseum.

Yes, it's a good story but so what? Having lived in Italy I could tell you a thousand similar stories (one of the funniest being the Post Office in Como not having any stamps - I did say 'when I am in Mcdonalds I expect hamburgers and not stamps but when I'm in the Post Officice I DO expect stamps! Everyone laughed and agreed but couldn't really understand what the fuss was all about - something to do with the 'courtyard mentatility' they have which I've mentioned on other threads).

Being in the travel business I can tell you thousands of similar stories at airports throughout the world (yes, many set in your beloved Paris and many, many in America). So what? I would rather give up the stamps in the Post Office for truly excellent food anytime. Life's a compromise Stevie - don't you know that?

[jaybee]

I missed this thread entirely until 6:30 this morning, and I am sitting here with tears running down my face. Steve, you must Curb Your Enthsiasm.


Hey, how about a TV series called Steve In Italy. It could rival Larry David and AbFab!

Edited by jaybee, 24 January 2003 - 05:12 AM.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Life's a compromise Stevie - don't you know that?

Well it all depends on what the compromises are doesn't it? Some compromises are acceptable and others aren't. In general, the ones I have reported on, I do not find acceptable. Too maddening for me. I cannot live in a place where the Post Office doesn't have stamps. It's just too easy to create a system to insure you never run out of them. I need to live in a place like Germany where things work properly. Life is too short to waste that much time getting simple things done. It's hard enough getting the hard things done. But on the good side of the ledger, my friend and I decided that Italy has better salumi etc. then France does.

I have a question for you (or anyone else for that matter.) In Italy when you go into a cafe for a drink, you have to pay first and then give the counterman your little ticket when you order. Why that custom? Is the entire country a bunch of serial latte macchiato thieves? Second question. Why when it is crowded three deep at the counter does the guy who is in the third row back feel that he is entitled to reach over everyone else and yell out his order to the counterman as if nobody else was there?

[peterpumkino]

Life's a compromise Stevie - don't you know that?

Well it all depends on what the compromises are doesn't it? Some compromises are acceptable and others aren't. In general, the ones I have reported on, I do not find acceptable. Too maddening for me. I cannot live in a place where the Post Office doesn't have stamps. It's just too easy to create a system to insure you never run out of them. I need to live in a place like Germany where things work properly. Life is too short to waste that much time getting simple things done. It's hard enough getting the hard things done. But on the good side of the ledger, my friend and I decided that Italy has better salumi etc. then France does.

I have a question for you (or anyone else for that matter.) In Italy when you go into a cafe for a drink, you have to pay first and then give the counterman your little ticket when you order. Why that custom? Is the entire country a bunch of serial latte macchiato thieves? Second question. Why when it is crowded three deep at the counter does the guy who is in the third row back feel that he is entitled to reach over everyone else and yell out his order to the counterman as if nobody else was there?

True, but my love for Italian food and lifestyle supercedes my desire for my life to be devoid of any frustration. Why not live in Switzerland then? The trains run on time (and I'm sure the Post Office have stamps).

And, Stevie-boy, I lived in Munich from 1997-2000 and I couldn't wait for the weekend where I would drive to Italy live a Real Life and get away from a programmed society. I liked the Germans (sort of) but I much prefer the lifestyle of the Italians and by the number of people clamouring to go there I am certainly not alone (oh, I forgot, they are probably just sun-seekers and don't care where they go, right?).

[francesco]

Francesca: very, very interesting comments.

Of course you find it interesting. He knows what he's talking about and you don't.

Eh, Stevey, he's a she.

No, HE's not.

FrancescO

I'm sorry if I offended you Francesco. It was Steve that wrote FranciscA.

Whoever made the mistake, I wasn't offended.

Francesco

[Steve Plotnicki]

But you could live in a place with great food and things actually work. It's called France .

I think one of the most interesting things about Italy is when you are leaving it by car and you cross the border into France or Switzerland. It's like you have travelled through a time warp. And I'm trying to say that in a way where I am not making value judgements about it. But the difference in efficiency and personal comfort is in plain view and it is striking. I understand that there is a charm to it. And I can find it charming as well when I am in the countryside or along the coast in a resort town or fishing village. But Milano should be a modern and efficient city where the buildings are clean/repaired and things work properly. That's the whole point of a city.

[Robert Schonfeld]

But you could live in a place with great food and things actually work. It's called France  .

I think one of the most interesting things about Italy is when you are leaving it by car and you cross the border into France or Switzerland. It's like you have travelled through a time warp. And I'm trying to say that in a way where I am not making value judgements about it. But the difference in efficiency and personal comfort is in plain view and it is striking. I understand that there is a charm to it. And I can find it charming as well when I am in the countryside or along the coast in a resort town or fishing village. But Milano should be a modern and efficient city where the buildings are clean/repaired and things work properly. That's the whole point of a city.

Do they have any good Italian restaurants there?

Leaving aside his penchant for the pointless prod, as well as a somewhat disturbing lack of interest in anything other than Life According to Steve, I must say that one result of these recent threads has been that I understand his point of view much more clearly. I think it was the comments about Venice that brought this into focus for me. I appreciate too that his point of view represents a great many people. You should all live a long time in good health.

Edited by Robert Schonfeld, 24 January 2003 - 08:04 AM.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I appreciate too that his point of view represents a great many people.

This is why I have my own ism.

[Paul Bell]

Not certain I want to prolong this but it is Friday afternoon.

But you could live in a place with great food and things actually work. It's called France

What?? The worst flight delay I have had (Thats tempting fate isn't it) was at Charles de Gaulle, when Air France had to fly a plane up from Spain to fly us from Paris back to London because they did not have one in Paris!.

Not forgetting the recent occurence when Strasbourg airport was closed due to deer on the runway.

And of course, the French make the most bloody awful coffee in Europe (a generalisation admittedly, but nonetheless generally true).

The French are as incompenetent as the Italians (who I like) just more miserable with it.

That being said Heathrow is possibly the poxiest airport in Europe with constant flight delays so who are we to complain?

But Milano should be a modern and efficient city where the buildings are clean/repaired and things work properly. That's the whole point of a city.

Been to London recently?

Although I was particularly impressed when we arrived in Rome last year, trundled onto the train to Termini, thought it was rather busy, and it kept getting busier, finally two armed carabineri appear to tell us the train drivers have just decided to go on strike. How do we get into town? On yer own mate! (Still nice ride in a Mercedes, wife was impressed with young chap in sunglasses and expensive suit driving us, a £50 bargain).

Paul

[Steve Plotnicki]

Your post does a good job of differentiating between organized mishaps and unorganized ones. Clearly, flight delays happen everywhere and for numerous reasons. Nothing about your flight delay at CDG is unique to the French, including not having an extra plane around. Are you under the impression that airlines have these $50 to $100 million dollar objects just sitting around? That could be any airline in any place. But going on strike in the middle of the day, without any advance warning, now that is in a different class and begins to approach stupidity. These days walkoffs are organized and management is warned in advance so they can make alternate arrangements. And I spend quite a lot of time in London and I will have you know that things work quite well there.

Edited by Steve Plotnicki, 24 January 2003 - 08:16 AM.

[peterpumkino]

But you could live in a place with great food and things actually work. It's called France  .

I think one of the most interesting things about Italy is when you are leaving it by car and you cross the border into France or Switzerland. It's like you have travelled through a time warp.

I assume your comment about France is a joke as nobody can be THAT dim.

Well Stevie-boy, when I lived on Lake Como I was very close to the Swiss Frontier at Chiasso. The frontier is on a small road going through town and you can sit in Chiasso (Switzerland) and have a conversation with somebody in Ponte Chiasso (Italy). It's THAT close and you know something Stevie-boy, the pasta was much better one minute walk away in Ponte Chiasso than in Chiasso. So you're right in a way - you've just got your direction wrong.

[peterpumkino]

But going on strike in the middle of the day, without any advance warning, now that is in a different class and begins to approach stupidity. These days walkoffs are organized and management is warned in advance so they can make alternate arrangements.

Is that right? Ever heard of SNCF?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Yes but the banks are in Chiasso. There are 33 of them there I believe. And I've never been on a train in France that has ever been delayed, other then for weather (the Mistral.) But I've travelled from Zurich to Milano on the train and have waited for them to change the engine from a Swiss one to an Italian one. Mama Mia. I hope those guys don't get paid by the hour. It felt like they went out for lunch in the middle.

[Jaymes]

Being in the travel business...

Well then, perhaps you've heard this old "travel agent" joke... (It was actually told to me years ago by a British travel agent friend of mine - so it's a "European" version.)


When travel agents die, they either go to Travel Agent Heaven, or Travel Agent Hell.

Travel Agent Heaven: The French are the cooks; the Italians are the lovers; the Swiss are the craftsmen; the English are the police; and the Germans run everything.

Travel Agent Hell: The English are the cooks; the Swiss are the lovers; the French are the craftsmen; the Germans are the police; and the Italians run everything.

Edited by Jaymes, 24 January 2003 - 10:10 AM.

[peterpumkino]

I've never been on a train in France that has ever been delayed, other then for weather.

But I've travelled from Zurich to Milano on the train and have waited for them to change the engine from a Swiss one to an Italian one. Mama Mia.

You must be the only person that I know that has never had a delay on a train in France. I've had a lot and also a few train strikes where I have been stranded on a Friday night in Paris. I suspect you live in a different World than anyody else.

BTW apart from the superfast trains (TGV, ICE, Eurostar, Cisalpino etc) ALL trains (and I do mean ALL - including German, French, Italian, Swiss etc etc) change locomotives at all borders in central Europe and have done since time immorial. I'm sorry but I thought it was I who knew nothing.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I wasn't commenting on the fact that they change locomotives, just on the extraordinarilly long time it took them.

[Stone]

But Milano should be a modern and efficient city where the buildings are clean/repaired and things work properly. That's the whole point of a city.

I feel the same way about San Francisco. Some feel that way about New York.

[Steve Plotnicki]

San Francisco is modern and effecient, they just have those dumb hills there. They're fun the first time you ride up and down on them. But after a few times they are simply a pain.

[Tonyfinch]

San Francisco is modern and effecient, they just have those dumb hills there. They're fun the first time you ride up and down on them. But after a few times they are simply a pain.

What do you mean RIDE up and down. My wife broke her ankle playing tennis in Bend, Oregon and insisted we continue our trip down the coast to San Francisco. I was pushing her up and down those f....ing hills in a wheelchair for six f....ing days. The worst part was trying to keep a grip coming down because my hands were so sweaty. She nearly went sailing down on her own a couple of times I can tell you.

We took refuge in a cinema which was showing The Last Temptation of Christ. The entrance was thronged with protesters one of whom screamed at my wife "Seeing this won't heal you, cripple" as I pushed her in.

One good thing though. I lost a stone in a week.

[Jaymes]

San Francisco is modern and effecient, they just have those dumb hills there. They're fun the first time you ride up and down on them. But after a few times they are simply a pain.

One good thing though. I lost a stone in a week.

Not still referring to your wife, here, I hope.....

[Craig Camp]

But going on strike in the middle of the day, without any advance warning, now that is in a different class and begins to approach stupidity

Steve,

I think you don’t understand Italian culture. Each Italian is convinced that their individual opinion is worth being heard by the government. Italy is perhaps one of the most ‘democratic’ places on earth because of this attitude. This is why there are some many political parties – all who get their shot at stating their opinion on the many political discussion television programs.

The strike is a method of political communication held dear by the Italian working class as a way to communicate their grievances not only to the government, but to leaders of all the political parties. This is why the strikes are frequent but brief. These strikes are not a surprise to Italians as they are reported on the news every evening in a ‘strike report’ much like a weather report here. All you have to do is watch the news or read a newspaper and you will know that the train conductors will be on strike tomorrow from 10:00 to 14:00 – it is all quite organized.

The general strike is the granddaddy of them all. Everything closes down. You would think this is terrible, but in fact it is more like a holiday. Everyone knows it is coming and stocks up the day before and the day of the strike is filled with picnics and family gatherings while the workers who are making their statement hold their mass marches in the big cities. I quite enjoyed the last one, it was a beautiful day and we had a great cookout with friends.

In fact, the strikes of the toll collectors on the Autostrade are quite popular, because the toll road becomes free. The agents just leave, close the door, put a sign up and you can just drive through. Not long ago I saved €25.00 driving home from a wine tasting in Friuli.

Yes, all of this make a bit of a mess, but it is far more organized than you think. It’s because you don’t speak the language and perhaps because your mind is closed to the real beauties of the place. There must be a reason that Italy is the number one tourist destination in Europe.

[peterpumkino]

The comparison of eating in Italy vs. eating in the U.S. is foolish . . . .

Why?

In this context it was foolish. The comparison has nothing to do with the experience of Italian food or Italian competence.

Miss Nina, if you actually read Craig's comment he was NOT comparing eating in America to eating in Italy. He was only making the completely accurate statement that Italians hate the food in the States and, in my experience, hate the 'Italian' food served in the States even more. This is also my observation and I think Craig's point is that Mr Plotnicki hates Italian food in Italy and the Italians hate the Italian food as cooked in the US even more. This shows the massive gap between the parties and, as I've always said, it is a matter of personal opinion, just a matter of personal opinion.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Steve,

I think you don’t understand Italian culture.

This would be an accurate, if massive, understatement.

For anyone who's interested, a most wonderful volume on the Italian people is The Italians by Luigi Barzini.

[Craig Camp]

Thats for the suggestion - I just ordered a copy!

[Craig Camp]

"Maybe there is another issue that I haven't yet raised. I don't think there is a reason not to like any food. As long as a food is eaten by people who actually know and like food, I can't think of a reason why that food should be considered bad unless it is an isolated instance of some sort. Maybe food can be an acquired taste but, what is the argument for saying blue cheese is bad other then you don't like the taste? And that is describing preferrence? "

What a great comment about understanding the diverse cooking styles and ingredients of the world. I think the comment 'actually know and like" is most appropriate. Can someone guess who wrote this - I forget the author?

[Steve Plotnicki]

I think Craig's point is that Mr Plotnicki hates Italian food in Italy and the Italians hate the Italian food as cooked in the US even more

Gee I don't hate Italian food in Italy, I happen to like it and have had many a good meal. What I have said is that I am typically disappointed in their dinner cuisine. That they excel at the tratorria level but are unsophisticated at the restaurant level when compared to other cuisines. On my Piemonte thread my friend who I quoted said it perfectly. Lunch is great but dinner is the same as lunch. And to make things worse, they try and make it fancier which screws it up all together. As for Italians eating in the U.S., well I can see that they wouldn't like it because they have a strange cuisine that doesn't translate well outside of Italy. When I was in Milan last week and was rushed for time (to make it to the airport for my cancelled flight, had I only known,) we had lunch at Bagutta which is a simple Tuscan tratorria on via Bagutta. I ordered the mozzarella appetizer,. What they served me was a half of an entire round of fresh mozzarella (terrific quality mind you, really flavorful) sliced on a plate. Not a tomato, a pepper etc. in sight. Just a cruet of really spicy and roasted olive oil (which I didn't care for) to dress the mozz with. Boy that is an odd way to serve cheese. A plate of cheese with nothing else. But Italy is full of those types of examples and I am sure that when Italians get to the U.S. they are often lost trying to figure out what to eat. The French on the other hand seem to have no problem. They are all in places like the Palm eating gigantic steaks and lobsters, or at the Oyster Bar in Grand Central having large platters of American oysters, or at Katz's having pastrami sandwiches. They are hamische those French.

Edited by Steve Plotnicki, 25 January 2003 - 09:06 PM.

[Robert Schonfeld]

They are hamische those French.

Now there's a term I've never seen applied to the French before.

[Craig Camp]

The French on the other hand seem to have no problem. They are all in places like the Palm eating gigantic steaks and lobsters, or at the Oyster Bar in Grand Central having large platters of American oysters, or at Katz's having pastrami sandwiches. They are hamische those French.

The Italians love those places in the US too - its the other places they don't like.

[vmilor]

For anyone who's interested, a most wonderful volume on the Italian people is The Italians by Luigi Barzini.

I will also order this book immediately as soon as I finish this message and let me add my tuppence worth of reading suggestions to a group which is thought provoking and interested in pursuing exceptional things.

Somehow the encounter between Anglo-Saxon and Italian cultures inspires writers, and there is some good fiction as well as non-fiction which results. Forget the popular books with fancy titles which are superficial and market driven. But there is insightful stuff which go even deeper than the academic work by social scientists. My own favorite is several books by "a lapsed Anglo-Saxon", Tim Parks. Having been brought up in suburban England by a Protestant minister father, Mr. Parks ended up setlling in Verona, thanks to marrying his companion Rita. ( As I understand he is now commuting to Milano to teach, but his base is still in Verona). What makes Parks so unique is that, while he is astonishingly aware of the cultural baggage that travels with him(i.e. the cliches, truisms and caricatures), he is not willing to "go native" without a fight and his resulting trials and tribulations make the stuff of remarkable literature. While he attempts to come to terms and understand( in the Weberian verstehen terms) the social fabric (ITALIAN NEIGHBORS), the socialisation of children(ITALIAN EDUCATION) and the remarkable institution of soccer (A SEASON WITH VERONA) in Italy, Mr. Parks often points the gun at himself and shoots some of his own demons, but his witty analysis always eschews easy answers. Some of his fiction which takes place in Verona is equally thought provoking, i.e. the novel JUGGLING THE STARS and it's sequel, MIMI's GHOST where he tells the story of his"alter-ego", Morris Duckworth, a handsome and pennyless English teacher who plots his way through the very upper echelons of Veronese society via marriage, appreciation of beatuful things and ...well murder when things go out of hand.

My wife and I were reading a set of essays by Parks (ADULTERY AND OTHER DIVERSIONS) and then discussing them during meals in Positano two years ago. Even less than stellar meals became enchanting. Enjoy....

[Robert Schonfeld]

Thanks for the titles in return, vmilor. I'll add them to my list.