71 replies to this topic

[froufrou]

Sorry this is late..I just ran across this post...

As this forum is excellent...you should also read www.chowhound.com, go down to International site and read all the post about honeymoons in Paris...after reading all the post there, you will know where to go and not to go and why.

Best wishes for a wonderful honeymoon!
Renee

[Schneier]

I would recommend against Tour D'Argent, unless you have a time machine.

My recommendation: Arpege.

Bruce

[Bux]

My recommendation: Arpege.

I may be reading the original post incorrectly, but I get the impression that while food is a strong interest, it is not the primary interest in choosing the restaurant, not that I could really fault Arpege on its atmosphpere.

[wnissen]

Hello,

First of all, congratulations on your upcoming marriage! My wife and I honeymooned in Paris a couple of years ago, and decided to go for one all-out meal at a ***. Discussed and read about La Tour, but read too many reviews that said that the food was disappointing, even if the service and setting were impeccable. Also read many from people that enjoyed it. Still, we found it too risky. Ultimately decided on Taillevent, which was described as a "temple of gastronomy." I'd say that was about right. I have no real basis for comparison, but everything about the experience was flawless. Easily the finest meal I've ever had, and I have trouble imagining how the service could have been any more perfectly attentive than it was. We rolled out of there, took a walk on the Champs Elysees whilst floating on air. Even now, two and a half years later, I cannot help but recall the feeling of absolute contentment. And this was lunch!! As for setting, we were seated in a room with other English speakers (including a
well-behaved tot) which was nice because it kept the smoke down. My only (very minor) regret was that the other tables brought cameras with them and asked their waiters to take a picture. I don't begrudge folks that, but it still seemed out of place. We were so wrapped up in our own meal that I don't think anything could have really interrupted our reverie.
On the other hand, the food at some of the other places will certainly be more creative, and might be better. Your call. A couple of tips: 1. Decide well in advance when you want to go. We only selected a restaurant three weeks out, and were unable to get a dinner reservation. 2. Don't know what your schedule is like, but often they are closed on the weekends. Good luck, I am sure you will have a meal to remember.

Walt

[robert brown]

I'll chime in with Ledoyen, just to make wnissen even more confused. I had a delicious meal there, although the servers weren't the most friendly. However, if you told the restaurant in advance that you're on your honeymoon, perhaps that will help. I recommend it also because of the historical aspect that you are looking for. It's about as old as a restaurant gets and they haven't messed around with the interior. It's also not the most expensive three-star in Paris. I guess Arpege is. I really like the food and the people at Arpege, but it's somewhat functional in decor, although it is small and intimate.

Le Pre Catlan is certainly pretty, but I had a really bad meal there about two years ago and am loath to return or to recommend it.

[porkpa]

Scott,
You obviously do not agree with me and you may not agree with Robert Parker either. Nevertheless, here is a quote from a posting of his on Mark Squires Wine Bulletin Board dated April 5, 2002 when referring to la Tour d'Argent's wine list he says: "Probably the greatest in the world for FRENCH wines"(my caps).
My point is/was that for a wine list to be considered the finest in the WORLD, it should be representative of what the world has to offer. Other than Port and Sherry, Tour d'Argent's wine list is totally composed of French wines. There is no representation from any "new world" countries in addition to some old world countries such as Italy, Austria and Germany. If you believe that the French are the only ones capable of producing great wine, then that is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. However if you be believe that great wine is also produced elsewhere, then for a wine list to be considered the greatest in the world it should be inclusive of what the world has to offer.
Porkpa

[tony h]

I'll chime in with Ledoyen

I agree with Robert. Ledoyen is easily the most beautiful & sumptious restaurant I've ever been in. Importantly - you know your in Paris rather than sitting in some anonymous internationally styled place. The service was impecible the night I was there and is has some of the most wonderfully presented food I've eaten. For a honeymoon - absolutely perfect.

Edited by blind lemon higgins, 03 February 2004 - 06:21 AM.

[Scott]

Scott,
You obviously do not agree with me and you may not agree with Robert Parker either. Nevertheless, here is a quote from a posting of his on Mark Squires Wine Bulletin Board dated April 5, 2002 when referring to la Tour d'Argent's wine list he says: "Probably the greatest in the world for FRENCH wines"(my caps).
My point is/was that for a wine list to be considered the finest in the WORLD, it should be representative of what the world has to offer. Other than Port and Sherry, Tour d'Argent's wine list is totally composed of French wines. There is no representation from any "new world" countries in addition to some old world countries such as Italy, Austria and Germany. If you believe that the French are the only ones capable of producing great wine, then that is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. However if you be believe that great wine is also produced elsewhere, then for a wine list to be considered the greatest in the world it should be inclusive of what the world has to offer.
Porkpa

Ah porkpa, correct me if i'm wrong but YOU don't have a point, you borrowed someone else's.
Have you been? care to nominate another?

But yes I do disagree with you/bob.

Incidentally it is in the Guiness book of records as the largest wine list in the world.

[porkpa]

Scott,
(1)Pray tell, whose point did I borrow?
(2)Yes I have been there several times, the most recent being less than two weeks ago on Saturday January 31. Each time I have also visited the cellar. It is absolutely awesome. The breadth and scope of FRENCH wines is without equal anywhere in the world.
(3)Three restaurants that do not have near the depth in French wines(nobody does)
but IMO are more representative of quality wine throughout the WORLD are Bern's in Tampa; Veritas in NYC(factoring in owner Park Smith's collection which constantly replenishes its list) and Bistro A Champlain in the Laurentian Mountains north of Montreal.
(4)The number of bottles at Tour d'Argent was never an issue.
Porkpa

[marcus]

Enoteca Pinchiorri has a French list among the best 3-5 in the world and the world's best Italian list. Tour d'Argent is undoubtedly still number 1 for French wines, but the last time I was there they had many gaping holes in their verticals, many of which were from important years. I don't believe that the cellar is being as well maintained with new stock as it used to be.

Berns has a very impressive cellar, but it is really doubly hit and miss. First, it is not systematically assembled, so you usually can't look for a particular wine, you need to find something that they have, certainly not a major problem. Secondly, and more significantly, the vast majority of their cellar is not accessable to the restaurant in real time. As you read down the list, you will find that many wines are not available that evening because they are not in the inhouse cellar. This represents at least 75% of the selection, if not more.

Edited by marcus, 03 February 2004 - 07:54 AM.

[Bux]

The world's greatest wine list, is the one that has the bottle I want at the price I am willing to pay. When it comes to influencing my decision on where to eat, the other hundred and fity thousand bottles are irrelevent. That, of course, is my subjective view. Others may find that wines held in an off premises cellar contribute to their enjoyment of the meal. I am aware of those diners for whom decor is not worth a premium and those for whom decor and ambience weigh more than the food when making reservations.

Nevertheless, a discussion on wine lists in Florida, New York and Italy is probably going to be more on topic and useful in the wine forum.

[Scott]

The world's greatest wine list, is the one that has the bottle I want at the price I am willing to pay. When it comes to influencing my decision on where to eat, the other hundred and fity thousand bottles are irrelevent. That, of course, is my subjective view. Others may find that wines held in an off premises cellar contribute to their enjoyment of the meal. I am aware of those diners for whom decor is not worth a premium and those for whom decor and ambience weigh more than the food when making reservations.

Nevertheless, a discussion on wine lists in Florida, New York and Italy is probably going to be more on topic and useful in the wine forum.

Robert,
this is 100% correct. The price you want to pay is important.

you get NO points from me, for stocking plenty of big names from a couple of vintages, at OUTRAGEOUS prices. this is a very poor wine list.

[Schneier]

My recommendation: Arpege.

I may be reading the original post incorrectly, but I get the impression that while food is a strong interest, it is not the primary interest in choosing the restaurant, not that I could really fault Arpege on its atmosphpere.

Yeah, you're right. Arpege isn't what I would call the most glamorous of French restaurants.

Probably not the best choice.

Laurent has a beautiful dining room. How about that one?

Bruce

[Scott]

Scott,
(1)Pray tell, whose point did I borrow?
(2)Yes I have been there several times, the most recent being less than two weeks ago on Saturday January 31. Each time I have also visited the cellar. It is absolutely awesome. The breadth and scope of FRENCH wines is without equal anywhere in the world.
(3)Three restaurants that do not have near the depth in French wines(nobody does)
but IMO are more representative of quality wine throughout the WORLD are Bern's in Tampa; Veritas in NYC(factoring in owner Park Smith's collection which constantly replenishes its list) and Bistro A Champlain in the Laurentian Mountains north of Montreal.
(4)The number of bottles at Tour d'Argent was never an issue.
Porkpa

Porkpa,
Gee i am stunned.

You quote parker saying exactly the same thing you do, and it's your point?

You consider Veritas to be a better list? you must be a very, very special person indeed.

I was in Paris on saturday, and chose not to go to Tour, I think it was good thing - they must have put somehing in your water

Edited by Scott, 03 February 2004 - 10:17 AM.

[marcus]

The world's greatest wine list, is the one that has the bottle I want at the price I am willing to pay.

Bux, I am really failing to see your argument. You are much more likely to find the bottle that you want on an extensive and well priced list. In addition, the process of choosing that bottle involves looking at many possibilities, thinking about them, and then narrowing down the choice, another major benefit of a great wine list.

My point about Berns' off premise storage was to indicate that the effective winelist was less good than one might believe based on looking at the complete list.

[porkpa]

Scott,
(1)I said it first(on this list that is) without the knowledge that Parker had said the same thing in 2002. I was reading the archives on Mark Squires wine bulletin board this morning when I came upon that post from Parker. I guess great minds think alike. :-)), :-))
(2)Veritas has a more diverse list. I never said it was better only that you have a broader range of choice. You are not committed to choose from only French wine.
(3)You say: "they must have put something in your water"
Getting personal, aren't we? I can think of one or more nasty responses, but that's not a direction I want to go.
Porkpa

[winemike]

The world's greatest wine list, is the one that has the bottle I want at the price I am willing to pay.

I must say that I agree with Bux. When I go to a restaurant that has a wine list that takes about
2 hours to read, it puts me off (to some extent). I rapidly go to the wines that I know and do not
look at some others that might be great and at good prices (or I have to spend 2 hours with the sommelier).
Also, when I then realise that they charge stupid prices for the wine I like, I get frustrated...
Do not get me wrong, I LOVE wine. But price and food matching are also very important.
More important than the wine itself. Otherwise, I'd just go to Caves Taillevent, get that Romanee-Conti 59 and drink it at home.
Which leads me to another important point :the SOMMELIER. I recently went to an WS award winning
restaurant and the sommelier I was talking to just had not a clue about white burgundy. Disturbing. Though
the wine list was great....

So for me the best wine list comes with the best sommelier for the best advice. At good prices

[Bux]

The world's greatest wine list, is the one that has the bottle I want at the price I am willing to pay.

Bux, I am really failing to see your argument. You are much more likely to find the bottle that you want on an extensive and well priced list. In addition, the process of choosing that bottle involves looking at many possibilities, thinking about them, and then narrowing down the choice, another major benefit of a great wine list.

I didn't present an argument.

The world's greatest wine list, is the one that has the bottle I want at the price I am willing to pay. When it comes to influencing my decision on where to eat, the other hundred and fity thousand bottles are irrelevent. That, of course, is my subjective view.

It's merely my subjective view and I'm merely commenting on the subjectivity of what makes a wine list great for people. It's also my introduction to saying we are drifting not only from answering the original question, but from a topic germane to this board when we discuss the best wine list in the world.

I do believe there is a "best wine list" concept that is far different from the best wine list for a particular person. I am not aruging it doesn't exist.

[porkpa]

Marcus,
Wouldn't Bern's accommodate you if you called ahead to pre order that special bottle that might not be immediately at hand? I know that Veritas will. Moreover Veritas will also arrange to have your special bottle decanted and ready to drink if you request it. I realize this might make the total experience a little more cumbersome, but it would guarantee you whatever you you had heart set on.
Porkpa

[marcus]

Porkpa, I don't really know the answer, you would need to call. However, they don't appear to have a website so I don't know how you would best go about examining their list. The winelist is book length and could not be easily faxed. I doubt that they have it in softcopy.

[porkpa]

Marcus,
FYI their website is www.bernssteakhouse.com
Porkpa

[Scott]

Porkpa,

The problem with veritas is that is a poor value wine list full of trophy wines at prices not intended to be purchased by real people, with poor vintage depth.
I am sure you brought it up in context of a better list, but no matter.
With a big enough cheque book I could purchase their entire wine list, and certainly charge no more. that alone disqualifies it.

Value for money and depth of vintages must be the primary concerns when assessing a list. I.e There are wines at veritas that sell for between 4 and 8 times what I can buy them for at Tour d'argent.

You're right Veritas will open and decant your wines, as long as you pay for it before you arrive. I don't see that as anything special.

[Scott]

I do believe there is a "best wine list" concept that is far different from the best wine list for a particular person. I am not aruging it doesn't exist.

Bux,
I know I basically agree with you, here but for semantics I would like to respond.

A wine list full of big names, that aren't really intended for purchase, shouldn't be considered a great list. it is just a list, rather than a tool for the benefit of the diner. which is why if something isn't offered at a fair price, then it may as well not be offered at all.

[Louisa Chu]

How did this go from a honeymoon in Paris thread to my wine list is bigger than yours?

Robert and blh - I defer - I think you're right about Ledoyen - there I have dined, it's right in the middle of Paris, beautiful setting, beautiful rooms, it's a 3-star, and Chef LeSquer is one of the nicest guys in town.

Robert, about Pre Catalan - I have not dined there yet but it comes highly recommended to me from a few highly respected chefs. What happened at that dinner two years ago?

[Gifted Gourmet]

NYTimes Travel

He took over the restaurant from his father, André, in 1947, and maintained its reputation as one of the world's gastronomical temples for most of the ensuing decades. The Michelin Guide awarded La Tour d'Argent three stars, its highest accolade, in 1951 ...  in the early 1950's, Julia Child wrote, "The restaurant was excellent in every way, except that it was so pricey that every guest was American." Claude Terrail once estimated that over the years, half his guests had been Americans. And La Tour d'Argent is still pricey; a menu a few years ago listed a soup for about $50.

Has anyone eaten there?
Your impressions?
Pricey?

[John Talbott]

NYTimes Travel

He took over the restaurant from his father, André, in 1947, and maintained its reputation as one of the world's gastronomical temples for most of the ensuing decades. The Michelin Guide awarded La Tour d'Argent three stars, its highest accolade, in 1951 ...  in the early 1950's, Julia Child wrote, "The restaurant was excellent in every way, except that it was so pricey that every guest was American." Claude Terrail once estimated that over the years, half his guests had been Americans. And La Tour d'Argent is still pricey; a menu a few years ago listed a soup for about $50.

Has anyone eaten there?
Your impressions?
Pricey?

From the Digest of April 10th

Wednesday, in Le Monde, Jean Claude Ribaut wrote a sad article about the Tour d’Argent and its history of the numbered ducks, periodic gains and losses of stars, including the current destabilization and stroke suffered by Claude Terrail and calls it the Musée Grevin of Paris Restaurants.

[BigboyDan]

...eventually the Terrails will leave, and it will begin anew...

[Gifted Gourmet]

...eventually the Terrails will leave, and it will begin anew...

and add a bit of water to the soup to cut the $50 pricetag??

[TarteTatin]

Monsieur Terraill will be greatly missed. He was an elegant, fashionable and courteous gentleman of the 'Old School'.

On our first visit to La Tour d'Argent over 20 years ago it was our initial experience at a true Michelin three star, despite my postition as maitre'd at the Phildelphia version of the Cafe Royal owned by Trust House Forte.

Monsieur Terraill came to our table, I presented my card, and suddenly we were not just guests, but honored guests. A digestif was offered on the house, a tour of the rooftop gardens and the cave was conducted and a lovely evening became a truly memorable one.

We will always remember him fondly. He was the ultimate host and made everyone feel welcome.

[Carlsbad]

We lunched at La Tour d'Argent not that long ago, and enjoyed it for the history, perfect view, and even for the famous duck. M. Terrail, dapper as ever, came by and treated us as old friends. We took the tour of the cellar, which was impressive, especially when the guide showed us where they had walled it off during the war so the nazis couldn't find the best wine. He survived the loss of the third star, but the loss of the second was just too much.