207 replies to this topic

[helenjp]

Japanese curry didn't get here from India - it's basically a curry-flavored Edwardian British white-sauce. If you think of it that way, the whole "roux" thing makes perfect sense.

[battlepanda]

Greetings, I'm new to eGullet. I had to join after finding this Japanese food section. You guys are really fanatical about food!

Anyhow, I have a question about Japanese curry. Me and my boyfriend absolutely love it, and is in fact thinking about opening a small restaurant specializing in Japanese curry in the United States. I know we are taking a risk because nobody knows about Japanese curry in the States, but at the same time it is so addictively tasty we believe our restaurant can take off in a big way if we do it right.

Anyhow, right now when we cook Japanese curry for ourselves we use the roux cubes we find in the local asian market. It makes for a very acceptable product that is less complex than the curry you'd find at specialist curry stores in Asia, but nevertheless pretty good. From what research I've done it's clear that this is the way that curry is made in most households. But, to tell you the truth, I would almost feel like cheating using a convenience product like curry cubes in our restaurant. Does anyone have good recipes for making curry truly from scratch? Or are there additional steps or extra ingredients I can add to our curry to make the roux more flavorful?

My boyfriend thinks I'm being silly. He has a point since then roux curry is really quite yummy and we're hardly in competition with anybody else selling an even remotely comparable product. Still, I want to make our food the best it can be. Any advice will be helpful!

[Foodie_Penguin]

Greetings, I'm new to eGullet. I had to join after finding this Japanese food section. You guys are really fanatical about food!

Anyhow, I have a question about Japanese curry. Me and my boyfriend absolutely love it, and is in fact thinking about opening a small restaurant specializing in Japanese curry in the United States. I know we are taking a risk because nobody knows about Japanese curry in the States, but at the same time it is so addictively tasty we believe our restaurant can take off in a big way if we do it right.

Anyhow, right now when we cook Japanese curry for ourselves we use the roux cubes we find in the local asian market. It makes for a very acceptable product that is less complex than the curry you'd find at specialist curry stores in Asia, but nevertheless pretty good. From what research I've done it's clear that this is the way that curry is made in most households. But, to tell you the truth, I would almost feel like cheating using a convenience product like curry cubes in our restaurant. Does anyone have good recipes for making curry truly from scratch? Or are there additional steps or extra ingredients I can add to our curry to make the roux more flavorful?

My boyfriend thinks I'm being silly. He has a point since then roux curry is really quite yummy and we're hardly in competition with anybody else selling an even remotely comparable product. Still, I want to make our food the best it can be. Any advice will be helpful!

In theory, your idea for a Japanese curry restaurant is good but it depends on your geographic location in the US.

First of all, are you aiming to get Asian customers or Westerners?

I really don't think that Japanese are going to pay money in an overseas country to eat Japanese curry when they can buy the boxes of curry roux from Asian stores anyway.

So, there's greater potential in attracting Westerners. However, curry is generally associated with Indian (East Asian) cuisine so you'd have some hurdles trying to establish the identity of Japanese curry to an audience who may not even be aware of the curry variant.

BTW, making roux isn't difficult, at least not in my experience. I haven't made it for Japanese curry (I much prefer Indian curries anyway, Indian style, not American style).

Also, if you're making Japanese style curry, I hope you will only be serving Japanese rice with it (that's what's served with the curry in Japan, isn't it?).

Just some thoughts on the topic...

[okinawaChris]

I too have been playing with the idea of opening a curry house back in the states when I return. I believe it can be successful due to my observations here on Okinawa. Having a very large US presense here, whenever you go into a Curry House Coco Ichibanya, it is filled with Americans! I know there are a few Curry Houses in Southern California, but adding to the sentiments stated prior, they may be leaning too much to the Japanese tourist crowd in So Cal instead of the locals. Also, they seem to serve their curry on spaghetti instead of steamed rice??

As for the roux. I believe the roux is only the base for the sauce. Either at home or in a restaurant setting it will be how you "kick up" the sauce that will make it outstanding. The cooking sytle of the meats and vegetables along with "secret" additions such as carmelized apples, additional spices or golden raisins will truly add to the overall effect.

Placement of the proposed restaurant in a major urbanized setting would help. Also, most Americans think "Indian" when they hear curry, so you would have to educate them on the profound differences. But as many Japanese are attracted to American cultural icons, the same is true with Americans in their interest in most things Japanese. This idea was recently boosted with the box office returns of "Lost in Translation" in the US.

[battlepanda]

Thanks for the welcome and the info, Torakris. I'm still working my way through reading the curry thread...there's a lot of ideas there!

I'm planning to open the restaurant in Amherst, Mass. It's a college town so I'm aiming squarely for the hungry student customers. Not very many Japanese people here, but I doubt our curry will be authentic enough for them anyhow. I think okinawaChris is right - roux cubes are the way to go, at least as a departure point. As for educating our consumers, I'm counting on the curiosity factor to get people in the door (we'll make it clear from our sign and our advertizing to differentiate ourselves as JAPANESE curry).

I'll keep you all posted as the recipe testing phase commences. Hopefully my boyfriend and I won't gain too much weight in the next few months.

[Hiroyuki]

Before I can make any comments/suggestions, can anyone tell me if these Heinz curry products are regional and not available in the United States?
http://www.at-food.com/curry2.htm
http://www.rakuten.c.../624708/624872/
(Scroll down to view Heinz products.)

[battlepanda]

I looked on the U.S. Heinz website...no mention of curry.

However, at my local Asian store they do have a selection of curry cubes. S&B's Golden Curry is what we usually use for ourselves.

[Carlovski]

I wouldn't get too bogged down with authenticity - as far as I'm aware Japanese curry isn't exactly a product steeped in centuries of tradition.
Strangely it sounds very similar to what is served in chinese takeaways and chip shops across the uk - roux based, a bit spicy and sweet, and absolutely nothing like an indian curry. And I know they buy it as powder.
Students will probbaly love it.
One thing I would suggest is having lots of interesting condiments on the table (Use small pots/bottles though to stop wastage). It allows people to alter it to their taste, and gives the impression of getting something free (It isn't of course, you add it to the price really). I know a thai place which attracts people over similar ventures just because of this fact.
Mayb a communal table type, canteen type setting would be good too.

[Hiroyuki]

I looked on the U.S. Heinz website...no mention of curry.

However, at my local Asian store they do have a selection of curry cubes. S&B's Golden Curry is what we usually use for ourselves.

OK, thanks.

It's like throwing a wet blanket, but I have to mention this first:
You say that Japanese curry is 'addictively tasty'. You know why? Store-bought curry roux contains a lot of fat, 40% lard (by weight or by volume?, I don't know) for some brands, and it also contains a fair amount of MSG and other food additives. So, if you want to serve healthy, low-fat, and MSG-free curry to your customers, using store-bought curry roux is not a good idea. Of course, this is just my personal opinion.
What do you think?
That being said, I must admit that whenever I make curry at home, I use store-bought curry roux. As you say, it's really addictive!

[okinawaChris]

The fat content and MSG is what gives Japanese curry it's "rich" and addictive qualities! To take them out would diminish the taste profile in my opinion. I don't think many people go to curry houses to better their health, but instead to eat a hearty satisfying meal.

As for curry roux in the states, House Foods Inc. in California sells bulk curry roux to the restaurant industry.

http://www.house-foods.com/index.html

I think BattlePanda's idea of opening in a college town is perfect. It is the right target audience for the menu. Teachers/Admin by day, students by night/late-night. The curry houses down here are packed into the wee hours of the morning with people finishing their nights on the town or in the bars with a plate of curry. Most ingredients will be available in the states, but the necessary Fukujin-Zuke may be hard to come by along with the Radkyo (sp?) onions for tabletop condiments.

[battlepanda]

Hiroyuki is right. Japanese curry is not the healthiest food. Especially if we decide to serve it over tonkatsu. But as we are marketing ourselves mostly as an alternative to other standard student fare such as pizza and other fast food, I don't think we're going to do any more damage to people's health.

But my boyfriend and I better watch our own curry consumption. I'll probably get sick of it relatively quickly, but he can eat curry all day every day.

And as for fukujin-zuke, there's an well-stocked asian store in town where we can buy them. We'll probably just leave them out on the condiment counter for those who want them. My boyfriend absolutely hates fukujin zuke. I can take them or leave them.

[Hiroyuki]

OK, I have no intention of offending you, anyway.

Here is a list of most of the 'secret ingredients' that will add a subtle flavor to store-bought curry roux (I guess some of them have already been mentioned in the curry thread, though):

- Consomme
- Ginger
- Chocolate
- Instant coffee
- Tomato ketchup
- Apple, mango, and other fruits
- Honey
- Mayonnaise
- Worcestershire sauce
- Soy sauce
- Milk
- Garlic
- Laurel leaf
- Yogurt
- Wine

[v. gautam]

I think Hiroko Shimbo offers a recipe for curry [shrimp] from scratch. She instructs cooking the base for 2 hours! My question: has anybody prepared this recipe exactly according to the directions and is 2 hours overkill? Thanks.

[helenjp]

I haven't prepared that particular recipe, but I have cooked other roux-type preparations (cream croquette base) for a very long time, and as promised, the flavor certainly did lose any hint of raw flouriness, and does break down some of the gluten rubberiness (which is what I object to most in roux-based curry mixes - when I just can't stand roux, I thicken my curry with peanut flour).

If you want to go that route, why not prepare the roux by hand, then tip it into a slow cooker to "mature"?

[battlepanda]

Thanks for the interesting ideas, Hiroyuki :)

Today I went to the Asian store and looked around. They had three kinds of S&B curry, mild, medium and hot, plus two kinds of vermont curry. I picked up the medium S&B and made two batches of chicken curry at home.

First, I sauteed chopped garlic and grated ginger in the skillet with a little vegetable oil. Then I added diced boneless chicken thigh and browned it before adding the veggies, onions, peppers and a tomato. I steamed the potatoes and carrots seperately. Then, going with an idea I saw in a cookbook, I pureed some of the potatoes and carrots with a little chicken stock to add textures to my curry. Then I finished up the curry by adding water and roux cube as usual.

I also made another batch just with chicken and onions, as per the instruction on the back of the box.

THE VERDICT?

My boyfriend preferred the straight-up version unequivocally. He found the messed around version too complex, with the curry flavor muted by the other additions.

I too, have to admit that the straight-up version had better immediate mouth-appeal. The pureed potatoes did not noticably affect the texture of the stew, which was a little gummy for me. The garlic and ginger was overpowering. And I suspect the addition of the stock made the curry too salty. I liked the texture of the vegetables, but I think having so many different aromatic vegs in there made the flavors muddy. Dispite the shortcomings of my version, however, I think it had a more three-dimensional taste that people expect from restaurant food.

Both versions suffer from some common flaws -- my tongue is numb from the full-on salt and monosodium glutamate assult! I also found the 'gravy' of both sauces unpleasantly gummy.

My boyfriend thinks that the straight-up version is hard to beat. And though I have to admit that it is pretty darn tasty, I think people going into a restaurant is not going to be happy with something quite as one-dimensional. I also want to cut down on the salt and monosodium glutamate content of the curry. MSG is a short-cut of making things taste good, but ultimately it is not as satisfying as real flavor. I also want to improve on the texture of my curry.

Tomorrow, I'm going to make a beef curry with S&B's hot roux. Keep posted to see how it turns out!

[battlepanda]

OK, guys. This is what I did. No exact quantities because...proprietary info, y'know ;) Not that I'm really afraid of anyone stealing my secret -- the real secret of making good curry from scratch is that it's a lot of work!

I decided to make a beef curry, both because it's my favorite kind and because it stands up to long simmering a lot better than chicken and I wanted a curry that is nice and 'stewy'. I bought some boneless short ribs. Not too expensive. I didn't trust the anonymous diced meat they sell as 'beef for stewing'.

I knew I needed a flavorful stock. So I roasted beef marrow bones in a low oven. Meanwhile, I lightly caramelized a ton of sliced onions. Half I reserved for the curry itself, the rest stayed in the stockpot. In addition to the bones and the onion, I added carrots and a few bay leaves, then boiled everything gently for two hours until the stock was really rich. I also added some sliced apple and tomato in there towards the end for good measure.

While the stock was working, I made my roux with some butter, S&B curry powder and flour. I cooked it for a really long time to get the flour-y taste out, on really low heat of course. As a bonus, the long, slow, cooking also drew out this delicious nuttyness in the butter that was detectable in the final curry. I also steamed some potatoes and carrots to go in the curry.

I cut the short ribs into nice, meaty pieces and seared them in a skillet. Once they are brown all over I added the onions I reserved earlier and stir-fried them together briefly.

Now I'm finally ready to start the curry itself! Into a large saucepan went the roux, to which I slowly added hot stock while stirring constantly. Exactly like making a white sauce. Then I added a puree of some of the steamed potatoes, carrots, half a raw apple all blended up with some stock. This thickened the curry up even more. I added the previously seared meat and onions and started braising everything. I tasted the sauce. It had a lot of rich flavor, but it was also kind of wan and lacking in depth. I needed something savory. Something strong. Something to bring out the beefiness...V8 vegetable juice! It did the trick. I also added one square of S&B amakuchi curry roux for the requisite hit o' MSG. After more simmering, the meat was tender. The onions melting. The curry was silky and full of flavor.

The recipe is by no means perfect, and I'm sure I'll have many more batches to cook in front of me before I'm ready for the restaurant to open. The next challenge: I have some friends coming over on thursday who are very "crunchy granola" types so I need to develop a healthy curry with absolutely no MSG by then! Wish me luck.

[okinawaChris]

I have also found that adding stock instead of water to curry roux mixes gives the curry a better depth of flavor. Simply follow the instructions on the package and replace the required amount of water with stock. As for the meat, I use well-marbled cuts such as short-ribs, ribeye, oxtail, chicken thighs or pork butt. For a real different flavor try lamb shanks, they are great in curry and when they break down they add a richness to the curry that can't be beat, except maybe by the oxtails. Browning the meat in "browned" butter is a great idea to add that nutty flavor to the sauce.
By the way, House Foods recommended using their Javanese Curry instead of their Vermont Curry for a true commercial "curry house" flavor profile. Has anyone tried their Javanese Curry?

[chefzadi]

Greetings, I'm new to eGullet. I had to join after finding this Japanese food section. You guys are really fanatical about food!

Anyhow, I have a question about Japanese curry. Me and my boyfriend absolutely love it, and is in fact thinking about opening a small restaurant specializing in Japanese curry in the United States. I know we are taking a risk because nobody knows about Japanese curry in the States, but at the same time it is so addictively tasty we believe our restaurant can take off in a big way if we do it right.

Anyhow, right now when we cook Japanese curry for ourselves we use the roux cubes we find in the local asian market. It makes for a very acceptable product that is less complex than the curry you'd find at specialist curry stores in Asia, but nevertheless pretty good. From what research I've done it's clear that this is the way that curry is made in most households. But, to tell you the truth, I would almost feel like cheating using a convenience product like curry cubes in our restaurant. Does anyone have good recipes for making curry truly from scratch? Or are there additional steps or extra ingredients I can add to our curry to make the roux more flavorful?

My boyfriend thinks I'm being silly. He has a point since then roux curry is really quite yummy and we're hardly in competition with anybody else selling an even remotely comparable product. Still, I want to make our food the best it can be. Any advice will be helpful!

People do know about Japanese curries in the states. It's not widely known, but there are restaurants that serve curry dishes. Obviously most of them are targeted toward Japanese and Koreans. It's also on the menu of alot of Korean-Chinese restaurants in LA (these restaurants are usually owned and operated by Korean born folks of Chinese descent). It's kind of funny, because the Chinese population is off the beaten track in LA, over in the San Gabriel Valley. But the Koreans have a huge presence smack dad in the middle of LA. They also run alot of Japanese restaurants. So I don't know if very many Los Angelenos realize they are getting Koreanized versions of Chinese and Japanese food when they eat these places. They've also opened up a huge number of Pho restaurants (but these are targeted to mostly Koreans)

Anyway, back to Curry. There was a chain (it's probably still there) called "Hurry Curry" that had a location on La Cienega Blvd in Beverly Hills. You might want to look up the company. You can also find S&B curry bases in almost every Supermarket in LA, so it would be safe to guess that alot of Non-Asians are making it at home as well.

Edited by chefzadi, 24 January 2005 - 06:39 AM.

[torakris]

I just saw a commercial for this, Glico's latest
Zeppin

it is double delicious becasue of the paste within the roux....
Only available in chuukara (medium) and karakuchi (spicy) and it is about double the price of the other boxes of roux.....

[anpanman]

What do you all think about this recipe?

Curry from scratch

[Hiroyuki]

What do you all think about this recipe?

Curry from scratch

Well, I think it's a great recipe. I can never bring myself to follow that recipe, though.
In Japan, there are some yoshoku restaurants that spend a whole week making curry roux.
Just one example:
http://www.ctv.co.jp...00/0921/06.html
(Japanese only).

[torakris]

I am with Hiroyuki,
I just couldn't imagine spending days just to make curry....

it does sound good though

[Hiroyuki]

I made curry nanban.

Ingredients:
1/2 pack mixed mushrooms (398 yen)
1/2 onion
1/8 hakusai (Chinese cabbage)
1/4 carrot
200 g chicken breast

Store-bought men tsuyu (noodle soup), concentrate type
3 cubes karakuchi (hot) curry roux

1 pack (300 g) soba (100 yen), which I bought at the 100-yen shop.




We had curry nanban together with some leftovers (simmered kuruma fu and atsuage, and macaroni salad with corn in it (not shown)).
We all loved the curry nanban!

***
Some comments:
1. I had to add mushrooms to impress my son. (My primary concern is to impress my children and make them want to eat.)
2. This particular soba, which I regularly buy at the 100-yen shop, is a favoriate of ours. It's an 'inaka' soba, not 'sarashina', which is whitish.

Edited by Hiroyuki, 01 February 2005 - 03:13 AM.

[helenjp]

Curses, forgot all about curry day after less than 5 hours sleep and a long day at work...had to make the roux from scratch, because the nearest shop doesn't sell the "no beef-fat" roux that I like.

SO. Chicken curry with meat and potatoes stirfried in spices, and aubergines deepfried. I do this to avoid the very bland texture and taste of chicken curry Japanese style. Green peppers added at last moment for color.

Roux (flour, butter, curry powder) can of tomatoes plus 1 squeeze ketchup, salt and chicken bouillon, plus the garlic/ginger/cumin/coriander/turmeric/red pepper rub used when frying the chicken and potato, with paprika for brighter color.

Served with plain white rice, taa-sai Chinese greens stirfried with green ginger and black pepper, dressed with a dash of yogurt.

No batteries in digital camera.

[smallworld]

I made today's curry without the store-bought curry roux. I was worried that it would turn out to be more of an Indian curry (not that I have anything against Indian curries) but it came out just like a typical Japanese curry. I used home-made vegetable stock and lots of vegetables- onions, carrots and tomatoes- to replace the koku (deep rich flavour?) and sweetness that the store-bought roux imparts. After a few hours of simmering, I cooled it down in the fridge, as a kind of short-cut to that wonderful second-day curry flavour. And finally I reheated and added regular flour-and-butter roux.

I think I'll never buy curry roux again!



Served with fukujin-zuke, salad (with corn of course), and beer.

[helenjp]

Hmm...I added my roux at the end too, and felt that it was one of the better "home-made roux" versions we've had!

I see you like to add tomatoes too.

[smallworld]

Hmm...I added my roux at the end too, and felt that it was one of the better "home-made roux" versions we've had!

I see you like to add tomatoes too.

Yes! I think tomatoes are great in curry. The one I did last night has canned tomaotes and half a bottle of tomato/vegetable juice.

I don't use roux (the flour and butter kind) very often so I could be wrong, but I assumed using it at the end would be better for two reasons. First, I think the thickening power of roux isn't permenant, and since I simmer my curry for a long long time I was worried that if I thickened it at the beginning it might start to thin after a few hours. Second, I like to skim the foam from the top of the curry while it simmers, and I imagine that the foam wouldn't form if I thickened first.

No idea if any of that is true or not. But I'm pretty happy with the way my curry turned out last night!

[Kiem Hwa]

Curry Udon: (My first attempt at Curry Udon, ever).


I never thought about adding much to my curry besides the curry roux and maybe some sugar, something hot (kochojang or chili paste), and maybe some shoyu, until.... i read the eGullet curry thread.

Thus, presenting, curry udon, using S&B curry roux with the addition of some dashi-no-moto, shoyu, sugar, mirin, sake, and chili paste.

I also added onions, garlic, carrots, shiitake, aburaage, and some leftover tofu.

I made the curry kind of soupy for the curry udon, dumped it all over udon, and added on some leftover chicken katsu and shrimp.

Eaten with some daikon greens "oshinko" I tried making, scallion tsukemono, and fukujinzuke.

Im pretty happy with the way it came out, especially since previously, i didnt know what to thin the curry broth with without loosing alot of flavor when making curry udon.

Next time I want to try the tomatoes idea!

[Norio]

Happy Curry Day!

I made a Meatloaf Curry Loco Moco. I'd been thinking about doing something with eggs, or maybe meatballs, when it hit me. I could just make a Loco Moco and substitute curry sauce for the usual brown gravy. I had some leftover meatloaf, so I used a slice of that instead of a hamburger patty. The sauce was made with Java Curry roux.

It was not too bad. Would've been better with my favorite roux (S&B Golden! ) and a proper hamburger (or "hamburg") patty.

No photos to post yet. Still don't have a good digital camera.

[merrybaker]

Thanks, Kiem Hwa and Hiroyuki, for your menu suggestions. I wasn't able to find fukujinzuke. But I did make a salad... with corn. Actually, the corn was a nice addition, but don't tell anyone I said that! I used the recipe in that link because it was much more detailed than the curry box. The curry came out quite nice. My huband, who really enjoys Japanese curry, was thrilled with it! I'm glad I don't have a digital camera, because I'd be embarrassed to show my curry next to those really beautiful meals.