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Need a new sandwich bread

Bread

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#1 gfron1

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:40 AM

At my restaurant we make everything from scratch (even cheeses, cured meats, pickles...) except bread.  Which is ironic since my start here on eG was primarily pastry and its still my passion.  But I just haven't had the capacity to make bread for the restaurant until now.I bought a commercial convection, 2 tray full-sheet oven, and I think that will allow me the space to make enough to feed my customers.

 

The bread is for my lunches only not dinners.  Lunches are basic café fare - soup, salad and sandwiches.  So obviously we're looking at the sandwiches.  The bread needs to cross the lines between roasted turkey to sloppy chicken molé.  

 

I like my sandwich breads to be soft enough to easily bite and chew (sourdough is out).

I would like the bread to be versatile enough that I could add herbs or cheese to specialize for various sandwiches.

It needs to be sturdy but not so much bread in our carb conscious world.

I like focacias but they're a bit too rustic for my place

Previously I have used a bought ciabatta but they were too tough for many of my customers.

Currently I am using a bought brioche bun which is too bready and so I'm seeing a lot come back to the trash.

I've only used individual rolls/buns to this point but have considered sandwich bread, although that is a bit too rustic for us...but not if its good enough.

 

I think the ideal bread would be somewhat flat but a bit of sponge, have a little bite, but not too much chew (if that even makes sense).  Any thoughts.  Maybe there's a cool ethnic bread that I haven't considered, or you have a favorite that seems to fit the bill.


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#2 CatPoet

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:49 AM

I could  dig up the recipe for  Hole cake  ( Hålakaka), my grandmother's recipe  and it is  half  rye and half wheat, soft bread that can be made into   Örfilar  ( A clip around the ear) which is a square soft bread and easy to make.    Rye is such a popular thing even for those who want less carbs.   In Sweden most breads are a mix of wheat and rye. It doesnt have the wow factor of ciabata but it taste great.  I love  with smoked turkey or  goat cheese or pike spread...  Oh I am now drooling.

 

Does it sound nice?

 

 

Or you could make  tunnbröd, that has become popular and  is called Nordic wrap, but you need to be two to make or you will work your self to death  and the one  my family makes is  half barley half wheat.


Edited by CatPoet, 23 June 2014 - 08:50 AM.

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#3 Smithy

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 10:27 AM

One of my favorite upscale cafes uses flatbreads that they make on site. The bread is soft and pliable enough to serve as a wrap if one wishes, but it can also be cut with knife and fork as part of an open-face sandwich. Since it nearly covers the plate and the 'filling' almost covers the flatbread, I've usually chosen the latter option. They wouldn't share their recipe with me, alas, but their bent is Mediterranean. If you wanted a more local twist, might you use mesquite flour as an element in a flatbread? I don't know whether it would be difficult to source in quantity, and I know it isn't *quite* from your neck of the woods.

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#4 gfron1

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 10:40 AM

CatPoet - that Hole Cake sounds interesting to me.  I will need your help though since google just gives me some type of bundt sweet cake.

 

And Smithy, a soft flatbread could work especially if I shape it so its not as rustic.  And you're very observant - we have mesquite but its scrub so the pods don't really get big enough to be worth harvesting.  But ironically I went to a big mesquite conference a week ago and made all sorts of contacts down near Tucson.

A Puerto Rican friend just suggested pan de agua which might be interesting too if I added some flavor.


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#5 CatPoet

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 10:56 AM

this is how this type looks like, the ones for my province contains a bit more rye and is a bit more fluffy, but you get the idea.
 
When you make  Örfilar, then you  roll the dough out in to a big deep pan about 1 inch thick and then cut to size before rising.  Like this one  http://bakatochlagat.../03/ragbitar-2/
 
 
Tunnbröd is a flat bread, it comes both in hard and soft.  The first day you get it soft and the next day it has been dried out so it is hard. It is lovely. I could ask my mum for her   recipe.

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#6 CatPoet

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:03 AM

http://sockerblomman...1/halkakor.html   This is hålkaka,  I hope this works.   Tunnbröd is a flatt bread that can be made soft or  crispy.


Edited by CatPoet, 23 June 2014 - 11:03 AM.

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#7 gfron1

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:27 AM

this is how this type looks like, the ones for my province contains a bit more rye and is a bit more fluffy, but you get the idea.

 

When you make  Örfilar, then you  roll the dough out in to a big deep pan about 1 inch thick and then cut to size before rising.  Like this one  http://bakatochlagat...03/ragbitar-2/

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#8 djyee100

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:50 AM

Some of the best sandwich breads I've ever eaten were served at the old Tassajara Bakery in SF a very long time ago. The recipes were co-developed by Deborah Madison, former exec chef at the Greens restaurant in SF and now cookbook author. The recipes are in her original Greens cookbook. The recipes are also in the Tassajara Bread Book (by Edward Espe Brown), but I find Madison's recipes better written and more reliable. Madison's other cookbooks contain bread recipes that are worth checking out, especially in Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone.

 

In particular, I suggest that you look at the recipes for the Potato Bread and Dill Cottage Cheese Bread, both loaf pan breads that were used for sandwiches at the Tassajara Bakery. IIRC, the Greens restaurant in SF is still using these breads for the sandwiches at their take-out counter.

 

Another possibility is to experiment with a challah dough baked in a loaf pan, which could make a suitable (and delicious) sandwich bread. There's a recipe for a lean challah in Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone. It's made with water and veg oil, no milk.

 

While surfing I found this recipe for sandwich bread. See post #8.

https://community.cookinglight.com/showthread.php?100349-ISO-T-amp-T-Sandwich-Bread


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#9 Franci

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 12:42 PM

I love this Italian bread that is called pane a pasta dura

 

I don't know how good is this particular recipe because I only google it

http://vivalafocacci...rd-dough-bread/

 

You can make also a filone. It's more compact than a ciabatta but the crust is cruchy, not hard and the inside soft

 

if you google immage you can see different formats:

biove is one http://it.cookandcra...epastadura.html

miccone di stradella http://www.dolcesala...e-di-stradella/

 

 

Then I love for soups or charcuterie the pizza di pasqua al formaggio

http://aniceecannell...-formaggio.html

 

Also, don't know if it's too rustic for you but I've always like "panfocaccia"

http://profumodiliev...anfocaccia.html

 

And a good potato bread is moist and it's very good with the addition of herbs or cheese.


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#10 SylviaLovegren

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 01:15 PM

I love Greens/Deborah Madison's potato bread for sandwiches.  It's a classic loaf, soft and delicious.  Equally good toasted with lotsa butter!



#11 CatPoet

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 01:45 PM

I am going to bake a batch of  Örfilar / hålkaka tomorrow and take pictures, it will be much easier.  I also realised that the note book with the recipe is  next to my sleeping daughter, I read to her    the recipe for potato cakes before bed time...  So I make it tomorrow and you all can see what I use.


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#12 Chris Hennes

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 02:09 PM

Have you tried the hamburger bun recipe in Modernist Cuisine? It makes a basic white bun with a very nice texture for burgers, and the techniques used to achieve it give you a range of textural options.


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#13 Matthew Kirshner

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 02:40 PM

Would pita be out of the question? Or even a Multi-grain baggette?



#14 Anna N

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 03:05 PM

I love this Italian bread that is called pane a pasta dura
 
I don't know how good is this particular recipe because I only google it
http://vivalafocacci...rd-dough-bread/
 
You can make also a filone. It's more compact than a ciabatta but the crust is cruchy, not hard and the inside soft
 
if you google immage you can see different formats:
biove is one http://it.cookandcra...epastadura.html
miccone di stradella http://www.dolcesala...e-di-stradella/
 
 
Then I love for soups or charcuterie the pizza di pasqua al formaggio
http://aniceecannell...-formaggio.html
 
Also, don't know if it's too rustic for you but I've always like "panfocaccia"
http://profumodiliev...anfocaccia.html
 
And a good potato bread is moist and it's very good with the addition of herbs or cheese.


Fascinating breads, Franci. Thanks for sharing.
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#15 gfron1

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 03:36 PM

Yeah, so many good options being thrown out.  I'll have to start by weeding out ones that would take too much time away from my kitchen.


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#16 Mjx

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 12:46 AM

For about a decade, I've made a sandwich bread that yields a good-sized loaf from 500g flour, 10g yeast, 350-400ml/g water (depending on how slack I want the dough), and 3g salt. The addtion of 50+g butter or olive oil makes it really tender. I usually use spelt flour, but the recipe is flexible enough to work well with every sort of flour or flour combination I've thrown at it.

This yields a tasty loaf in a 2-hour turnaround time, about half an hour for each rise (but it becomes amazing with longer rises).

 

I often spread out the dough to about 1.5cm and cook it on a sheet pan to make schiacciata, which adds some variety to my boyfriend's packed lunches.

 

I've scaled this recipe to make up four loaves (the most I've made in a go, for a party), and the results are the same as for the single-loaf recipe.


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#17 CatPoet

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 06:37 AM

I be making it tomorrow, I am out of  fine  rye flour and the store is out of it too and I am not going for a 1 hour journey to get flour today, it will be picked up tomorrow when I am going shopping anyway.


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#18 CatPoet

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 07:51 AM

What bothers me is I was in the big town today, I did look at flour and thought Nah I have a bag, yeah I have a bag of  coarse stone ground  rye flour that makes anything taste MDF, but makes lovely Danish rye bread.Oh well , I just pick it up tomorrow and I give you nice walk through.


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#19 gfron1

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 07:57 AM

I'm not in a rush - so thank you for your efforts.  I'll just look forward to a relaxed walk through by you :)  I've got plenty of other research to do here as well.  Yours is very intriguing to me.


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#20 Smithy

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 02:57 PM

For about a decade, I've made a sandwich bread that yields a good-sized loaf from 500g flour, 10g yeast, 350-400ml/g water (depending on how slack I want the dough), and 3g salt. The addtion of 50+g butter or olive oil makes it really tender. I usually use spelt flour, but the recipe is flexible enough to work well with every sort of flour or flour combination I've thrown at it.

This yields a tasty loaf in a 2-hour turnaround time, about half an hour for each rise (but it becomes amazing with longer rises).

 

I often spread out the dough to about 1.5cm and cook it on a sheet pan to make schiacciata, which adds some variety to my boyfriend's packed lunches.

 

I've scaled this recipe to make up four loaves (the most I've made in a go, for a party), and the results are the same as for the single-loaf recipe.

 

Mjx, for about how much time, and at what temperature, should this be baked? Does the answer change if it's flattened to make schiacciata?  If so, what would the new numbers be?


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#21 CatPoet

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 03:02 AM

So I go in to town, get to a lager store and I get told they dont carry such exotic flour...  When the heck did  fine rye flour become exotic in Sweden? The land of  rye in nearly every bread there is, yes even our white bread has it.  Oh and apparently   a weird flour from New Zealand isnt exotic, since they have that .  Came home  not pleased at all  and ran into  a  very displeased neighbor, who grumpt about the lack of fine rye flour.  Since we  both have this problem, she promised to take me  in to  store on the other side of town to find the flour.

 

So tomorrow and by Holy Loaf I will raise hell if  the store doesnt carry it.


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#22 Mjx

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 04:38 AM

 

For about a decade, I've made a sandwich bread that yields a good-sized loaf from 500g flour, 10g yeast, 350-400ml/g water (depending on how slack I want the dough), and 3g salt. The addtion of 50+g butter or olive oil makes it really tender. I usually use spelt flour, but the recipe is flexible enough to work well with every sort of flour or flour combination I've thrown at it.
This yields a tasty loaf in a 2-hour turnaround time, about half an hour for each rise (but it becomes amazing with longer rises).

I often spread out the dough to about 1.5cm and cook it on a sheet pan to make schiacciata, which adds some variety to my boyfriend's packed lunches.

I've scaled this recipe to make up four loaves (the most I've made in a go, for a party), and the results are the same as for the single-loaf recipe.


Mjx, for about how much time, and at what temperature, should this be baked? Does the answer change if it's flattened to make schiacciata?  If so, what would the new numbers be?

 


Oops. Sorry about the omission.

 

If I'm baking a standard loaf, I preheat the oven to 225C° (437F°), give the bread 20 minutes (with convection; this is standard in Danish ovens), then reduce the temperature to 200C° (392F°), and give it another 25 minutes.

 

If I'm slammed with work and minutes mean everything, I just preheat to 200C°, shove in the bread, set the timer for 50 minutes, and it's still fine.

If my schedule is not so hectic, I preheat the oven with a cast iron pan in, then, after I've put in the bread, I fill the pan with water; this comes out at the 20 minute mark, when I adjust the temperature. If you have an oven with a steam setting, you're in luck.

 

To be honest, I don't usually check the internal temperature, but when I do, I'm looking for a minimum of 95C° (about 200F°), which yields a darker, crustier bread; 90C° (about 195F°) would give the just-golden-brown surface that is more characteristic of American sandwich bread (going with just 200C°/392F° would probably help yield this result, too; although you might want to brush the top with milk).

 

I've used loaf pans of varying sizes and shapes, and have found they yield loaves that are more or less the same, without any adjustment to time or temperature.

 

If I'm making schiacciata, I give it 25 minutes at 225C° (437F°), but keep an eye on it, since the Husqvarna oven from the mid-80s that I'm using these days is prone to random heat spikes (it's also 15 to 35C° off, depending on temperature used, how long it's been on, etc), so it can suddenly incinerate things with no warning.


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#23 CatPoet

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 12:48 PM

First of  all I want to say, my bread doesnt look its best today, baking rye bread during a thunderstorm isnt a great idea. Yours will look much better, trust me.  And also this have a bit more rye then it should, my daughter thought should add extra. And I made half a batch and not big one.

 

20140626_184141_zpsc2ecc72c.jpg

 

Ingredients :  600 gram fine rye flour , 600 gram  plain flour,  4 tablespoon of dry active yeast  or 100 gram fresh,  500 grams butter, melted (can be substituted for 50 ml rapeseed oil/canola oil), 500 ml luke warm water. 4 teaspoon salt  and   6 tablespoon  brun sirap ( this is Nordic thing, it made of beet sugar, you can get good result if you mix half dark treacle and half golden syrup).

 

20140626_184728_zps5d657ecf.jpg

 

Mix in everything but the plain flour, you can do this in a mixer, I couldnt be bother  to get mine out today.

 

20140626_184827_zps0a0a47ef.jpg

 

Now work in the plain flour, until you have a smooth dough. 

 

20140626_185331_zps0ea77a11.jpg

 

Keep kneading it a bit more until smooth and  easy to work with but not dry.

 

20140626_201519_zpsdef275f0.jpg

 

Leave it under a towel to rise  until double in size,  this can take  between 40 mins till 2 hours.

 

20140626_201901_zpsd25d00e4.jpg

Roll the dough out to   about  ½ - 1 inch thick, remember it will double in height. In the background  you can see the tray I normally use for a full size dough.

20140626_201939_zps353cc955.jpg

 

Please into you chosen baking tray, this one I am using needs   paper to be able to loosen the bread  while the black need only flour.

20140626_202106_zpsc15f7475.jpg

 

Prick the bread with a fork, it is important or it gets weird when it rises the second time. My grand mother had a "bread stabber"  that made stars, so cute.

 

20140626_202154_zps6ffeba0e.jpg

 

Now divide the bread in as big pieces you need.  Cover and rise for 40 min. Brush with  cold  water  and then bake at 225 C for 10 minutes.  Take out the bread and quickly brush with hot water and if you want a darker crust add   a little dark treacle to the water,  back in for another 10 minutes and   brush with  hot water and done.

 

20140626_211214_zpsab5643ab.jpg

 

This is how it looks done, it break apart easily and  normally looks nice.

 

When the thunderstorms , hopefully by tomorrow I bake another pan.


Edited by CatPoet, 26 June 2014 - 12:51 PM.

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#24 Franci

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 02:03 PM

It looks very nice CatPoet, I'll try after our vacation

 

 
500 grams butter, melted (can be substituted for 50 ml rapeseed oil/canola oil),

 

50 g butter?



#25 CatPoet

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 10:32 PM

Oh dear, it was supposed to 100 gram of butter, and 100 oil.  I was bit tired yesterday due this bloody weather and i manage to mangled the recipe. I am so sorry.

 

We found out last night my scale is off with a bit, so I got hold of my neighbors one and measured again.  Because the recipe is based on my grandmothers  coffee cups and not gram. So there , now it is perfect and YES I have another pan going again.

 

this is the true recipe.

 

Ingredients  500 gram fine rye flour ,  600 gram  plain flour ( wont be using all),  4 tablespoon of dry active yeast  or 100 gram fresh,  100 grams butter, melted (can be substituted for 100 ml rapeseed oil/canola oil), 1000 ml luke warm water. 4 teaspoon salt  and   6 tablespoon  brun sirap ( this is Nordic thing, it made of beet sugar, you can get good result if you mix half dark treacle and half golden syrup).


Edited by CatPoet, 26 June 2014 - 10:40 PM.

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#26 CatPoet

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 03:00 AM

I called my father, he said this   the only amount of flour that set in stone i rye, the plain flour  can be up to 1 kilo, it all depends on where it has grown and  the same goes with the rye,  So dont  stare at the amounts, just work the dough until it feels soft,  pliable and elastic.  After you made it the first time, you will know how much you need in the future.

 

You can add  1-2 tablespoon of  ground bread spice  (1/3 fennel , 1/3 aniseed , 1/3 caraway ).

 

And I noticed today what a different  it was to bake  with a thunderstorm, the first stage of the dough it was more like a soft  soup/porridge then the hard porridge I got yesterday.  The dough is lighter and much more a live.


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#27 CatPoet

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 11:23 AM

20140627_123227_zps05d0f426.jpg

 

This how much it rose today in  40 min. And this is a full  batch .

 

20140627_124221_zpsd80a8b66.jpg

 

I made mini hålkakor, they look like mill stones.  Out of a big batch, you get about 30 mini or 8 large ones. 

 

20140627_133301_zps6f1f1d7e.jpg

 

These have been brushed   with  treacle water  ( 100 ml water mixed 15 ml dark treacle) , before baking and after baking. This gives them the  dark brown colour people think rye bread have. But it is only sourdough  of rye  that becomes that brown due to iron the  rye releases  when fermented. Other rye breads can be pale as wheat or look like unbleached paper.

 

20140627_133319_zps664c1511.jpg

For size comparison  , this is my two year old daughter's hand trying to steal a fresh roll.


Edited by CatPoet, 27 June 2014 - 12:08 PM.

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#28 gfron1

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 12:04 PM

Those look great.  I think I'll give a go at it in the morning.


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#29 CatPoet

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 12:08 PM

Just remember the plain flour amount may vary and it is normal.  It does it for me too.  I used a round cutter I had and then a piping nozzle to take out the whole in the middle and tried to stab with a fork in a nice pattern.


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#30 gfron1

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 07:20 AM

I'm working on a batch right now and I'm up to 350g extra on white flour for a total of 950g.  Finally moved past sticky.  


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