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Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 9)

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#421 Chris Hennes

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 05:34 PM

For the record, in Under Pressure Keller quarters the fennel bulbs and cooks at 85°C for 40 minutes, until completely tender.


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#422 scubadoo97

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 06:58 PM

I'm interested in trying to cook a whole fennel bulb SV, as I find that blanching makes it a bit watery. I understand Keller's book recommends doing most veg at 85C, but how long will it approximately take?


I've done a cut up bulb 85c/60 min with a shot of sambuca. Cooked through but still had good texture

#423 JoNorvelleWalker

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 10:13 PM

I recently finished reading Under Pressure and was not terribly inspired by it.  But I am fond of fennel and might give fennel a try sous vide.  I cooked carrots sous vide at 85 deg C and was not terribly taken by the texture.  Pork/beef/chicken/lamb sous vide give much better results for me than vegetables.



#424 paulraphael

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 07:08 AM

With vegetables, cooking is a matter of breaking down cell walls, which is roughly analogous to breaking down collagen in meat. We're not going for a level of temperature-determined doneness, but for a temperature/time-determined texture. Which means timing is important in a way that it's not with most SV proteins.

 

I've only done a few vegetable experiments. So far I haven't achieved the carrot nirvana that some people talk about. I've had great asparagus, though. SV has been brilliant for in-season, fat stalks of it. Just prep them well (including peeling the bottom halves) and bag them with some salt and pepper and olive oil (or whatever) ... 85C for 15 minutes. Really beautiful flavor and texture. 

 

Not a total replacement for roasted asparagus (which I still prefer if the asparagus is less than great). But much prettier, and much more pure asparagus flavor. 

 

Next up is mashed potatoes ... the circulator is the perfect tool for retrograding the starch for a smooth puree.



#425 rotuts

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 07:29 AM

Ive only done a few veg

 

Asp. when plump w tight tips are excellent..  much better than I can do by streaming or simmering.  there is a very narrow window of

 

'personal doneness' w Asp.   I usually miss it most other ways  except grill

 

i did supermarket carrots  not much there for me.  you know the ones  no tops.   got some w tops ;  a bit better

 

Farmers Market carrots w tops are another matter, very very good.  but they dont come around here for long.



#426 ahpadt

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 08:17 AM

What texture are you trying to end up with? Still some crisp, or cooked until soft?

 

Cooked untill soft. My idea is to cook it whole SV, then char it slightly on the barbeque.


Edited by ahpadt, 07 May 2014 - 08:20 AM.


#427 Chris Hennes

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 10:15 AM

I sous vide vegetables regularly: the trick is, as paulraphael notes, that you can't just toss it in and forget about it. Timing is important, unlike with short-term meat cooking. I agree that asparagus works very well, as do pearl onions, potatoes, rutabaga, and parsnips.


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#428 rotuts

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 10:19 AM

CH:  Id like to hear a bit more about those potatoes 

 

Id not thought about tthose.



#429 Chris Hennes

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 12:04 PM

The potatoes I like the best are the Pommes Sarladaises from Modernist Cuisine, p. 3•178. They are sliced thin and bagged with water, duck fat, garlic, salt, and thyme. Cook at 88°C for 20 minutes.


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#430 DiggingDogFarm

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 12:48 PM

@Chris,

How are you preparing the rutabagas?


~Martin
 
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#431 Chris Hennes

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 12:57 PM

Peeled, quartered, and cooked at 85°C for one hour. Sometimes with butter.


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#432 paulraphael

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 02:48 PM

Burgers: the MC crew says that salting meat before grinding leaches out myocin and gives rubbery burgers. I have always salted before grinding, which allows me to season by weight and use the grinder to help mix it in. It allows me to not mix anything into the ground meat, which would definitely mess with the texture. My burgers have never been close to rubbery.

 

 

Could this be a sous-vide phenomenon? could the myosin become a problem with the longer cooking time? Anyone tried?

 

I'm inclined to think this advice was not based on experimental evidence, but would rather not be the guinee pig.



#433 Chris Hennes

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 02:49 PM

Salt takes time to act: are you cooking right after grinding?


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#434 paulraphael

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 02:59 PM

Not usually. I generally make patties (loosely, by hand) and refrigerate. If they're for grilling, several hours might go by.

 

For sous-vide I'll probably cook much sooner after grinding.


Edited by paulraphael, 07 May 2014 - 03:00 PM.


#435 EnriqueB

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:56 PM

Burgers: the MC crew says that salting meat before grinding leaches out myocin and gives rubbery burgers. I have always salted before grinding, which allows me to season by weight and use the grinder to help mix it in. It allows me to not mix anything into the ground meat, which would definitely mess with the texture. My burgers have never been close to rubbery.

 

 

Could this be a sous-vide phenomenon? could the myosin become a problem with the longer cooking time? Anyone tried?

 

I'm inclined to think this advice was not based on experimental evidence, but would rather not be the guinee pig.

 

Haven't tried with burgers, but I've done blinded side-by-side test of several meats such as chicken breasts and pork cheeks that were salted before bagging vs non-salted and with times of > 2 or 3 hours the difference in texture is clearly noticeable. The salted before bagging (either directly or brined) had more of a "charcuterie" or "cured" texture, the non-salted a "fresher" one. The reason is, as you mention, is that salt extracts salt-soluble proteins like myosin and actin, that helps "stick" meat threads together when the meat is heated and they form a gel. Which is the base of charcuterie. I don't think this result has anything to do with sous-vide (vacuum) itself, it's just the fact that cooking times are longer with sous-vide and that allows time for some actomyosin extraction.

 

The difference, at 1 to 1,5% salt levels, is subtle, I did not realize until I made the side-by-side tests. Is that bad? Not necessarily, depends on the result you're looking for. If I'm eating the meat hot I usually prefer salting at the end, but if I'm eating it cold (e.g. sandwiches, salads) it slices better when presalted.


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#436 paulraphael

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 07:08 AM

Interesting, Enrique. I've generally stopped salting before SV cooking. I've seen evidence of cured flavors/textures/colors on long-cooked red meat that was pre-salted. And with a lot of things I like to use the bag juices in a sauce ... and they can become way too salty, especially if reduced.

 

I may have to do a test on burgers. Salting before grinding is such a great convenience with ground meat. I've worked out salt levels pretty precisely by weight, and pre-salting is the easiest way to get decently even distribution.

 

FWIW, I salt burgers at 0.7%, a bit less than the range you mentioned. Possibly this makes the curing effects less relevant.



#437 Franci

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 08:25 AM

Hi guys, instead of conventionally roasting a picnic shoulder, I'd like to cook it SV. So far I've cooked only steaks, some confit and chicken, so I'm totally new.

It's a bone in shoulder about 6.5 cm in the thickest part with skin still on. Since it's going to become a stuffing for ravioli, most likely, I'd normally brown it, add some onion, sage and rosemary and deglaze with wite wine and stock at necessity.  How would you proceed?

Thanks



#438 paulraphael

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 08:50 AM

Also regarding burgers: SV cooking time is around a half hour and would progress shortly after the patties are made. So cooking time would be longer than with conventional methods (although still relatively short). But total time between salting and the end of cooking would be lower than what I've done in the past. 

 

In other words, the only change I see that could increase curing is time spent while salted at temperatures approaching the cooked state.



#439 rotuts

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:09 AM

Franci:  something does not seem right:  6.5 cm is about 2.5 " says Google.  that's a pretty thin shoulder. !

 

Ive had a  HD failure and am missing lots of my SV refs. from eG.

 

PerdoG has a lot of ref to temps and degradation of collagen.  one very interesting one is the temp where muscle collagen and CT

 

dissolves, after which SV at I higher temp does not excessively contract the fibers thus forcing out "jus" thus flavor

 

but I cant locate it which might be relevant here.  sorry.

 

as you are making this for ravioli, considering removing the skin, which might be used for something else.

 

BAldwin suggest for Boston Butt :  well done :

 

slow:  70 C  24 hours   fast:  80 8 - 12 hours

 

it would be nice to let the butt's  collagen  adjust itself at PegroG's lower temps first for a few hours, then move to the higher temp

 

you could then do a flavor reduction w the items you mentioned, add that to the now 'pulled pork' after the SV

 

I plan to PM PedroG and see if he has that ref at his finger tips as its one i want to keep available for myself

 

cheers



#440 Franci

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 11:02 AM

Franci:  something does not seem right:  6.5 cm is about 2.5 " says Google.  that's a pretty thin shoulder. !

 

...

 

I plan to PM PedroG and see if he has that ref at his finger tips as its one i want to keep available for myself

 

cheers

 

It's actually a thick slice,  the butcher  cut it from the shoulder. It's a little more than 2 pounds total weight.

 

image.jpeg

 

 

Thanks a lot for looking for Pedro's reference.



#441 rotuts

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 11:14 AM

thanks Franci.  iid just pop that into a bag and go.  as you plan to shred this  why not brown it first ?

 

you will get some 'jus' and Id use that this way:

 

 ( Im the usual NOT an expert offering insight here )

 

reduce your wine // onions // herbs.  add the jus and reduce some more

 

add this reduction to the "rellettes-ed" finished pork to the moisture level you like for the Ravi filling.

 

you might consider emailing me a Rav as an attachment /

 

i used to make ravioli s  back in the day.  I love them.

 

if you have any 'superb' flavored BBQ chicken wings 'left over'    :huh:

 

this is the ultimate OxyMoron

 

take everything off the bone skin and all and chop up and make ravioli.

 

you will be surprised.

 

cheers



#442 Franci

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 11:28 AM

Thanks Rotuts, I'll follow your advice.

Interesting your idea for BBQ chicken, in my mind I could use it for chinese potstickers but not for Italian ravioli.

Possible some ravioli are showing up again in the dinner thread soon :smile:



#443 jmasur

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 06:02 PM

Brain (and gut) trust:

 

Baby back ribs -- any concern about cooking them for more like 64h at 144F, instead of 48h?  Am I better off cooling in an ice bath after 45h, then reheating for 3-4h?

 

Thanks.



#444 pbear

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:26 PM

Thanks Rotuts, I'll follow your advice.

 

Be aware that preferences for long cooks vary widely.  70C/158F for 24 hours is as good a place to start as any, but you should follow this with another batch at a lower temp, say 66C/150F for 36 hours, then another at 60C/140F for 48 hours.  All these, by the way, are for falling apart tender.  Suitable for a ravioli filling but not necessarily for serving as a course in its own right.  For the latter, you'il want to back off the cooking times as much as 50%.  As I said, preferences vary widely and the only was to figure out what works for you is to run a few trials.  On the bright side, SV/LT for long cooks is nicely consistent, so once you dial in your preferences, you're good to go pretty much any time you choose to use the technique.

 

Just my $0.02's worth.  YMMV.  Etc., etc.
 



#445 rotuts

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 05:40 AM

"""    On the bright side, SV/LT for long cooks is nicely consistent, so once you dial in your preferences, you're good to go pretty much any time you choose to use the technique.  """"

 

very true.

 

that's why one keeps a notebook.

 

:biggrin:



#446 Robin G

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 04:08 PM

The potatoes I like the best are the Pommes Sarladaises from Modernist Cuisine, p. 3•178. They are sliced thin and bagged with water, duck fat, garlic, salt, and thyme. Cook at 88°C for 20 minutes.

Chris and others who have made it, do you think this dish would work well with sweet potatoes?



#447 Chris Hennes

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 04:13 PM

I think there are two dangers with using sweet potatoes in that application: the first is that they will have a tendency to fall apart when you try to handle them, and the second is that the flavorings included in the recipe probably can't stand up to the more aggressive flavor profile of sweet potatoes. I'm not saying it can't be done, but if I was you I'd do a trial run before any big dinner parties featuring the dish!


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#448 haresfur

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 02:17 AM

For the record, tonight's supper was goat shanks SV at 60 C for 78 hrs  meat removed and slightly shredded then added to vegetables (swede, carrot,, and fennel) roasted then slow cooked on low with a can of crushed tomatoes.  Added the SV jus to the veg and mixed the meat in.

 

Not photogenic but this is one for the meat eaters.  The tendons were almost completely gone, the meat tender and very red (personally I'd go a couple of degrees higher but I'm sure many would prefer this temp).  Rich.  The goat shanks weren't at all gamy but certainly were meaty.  I don't think you would mistake them for lamb and would be a good choice for someone who, say, wanted beef+.  I don't think you could do better than SV for these shanks.


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#449 Robin G

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:08 AM

I think there are two dangers with using sweet potatoes in that application: the first is that they will have a tendency to fall apart when you try to handle them, and the second is that the flavorings included in the recipe probably can't stand up to the more aggressive flavor profile of sweet potatoes. I'm not saying it can't be done, but if I was you I'd do a trial run before any big dinner parties featuring the dish!

Thanks, Chris, I had similar concerns... I just wanted the illusion of a lower glycemic index. :wink:



#450 jmasur

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 10:19 AM

Baby back ribs -- any concern about cooking them for more like 64h at 144F, instead of 48h?  Am I better off cooling in an ice bath after 45h, then reheating for 3-4h?

 

Postscript:  Left 'em in for 68h.  Delicious.  

 

Next time I make sv baby back ribs, though, I might break from my ordinary preference for dusting with rub, then cooking, then searing.  I think that it might work well to do the rub, then torch the ribs before packaging in bbq sauce and cooking -- the "bark" on the ribs would be subtle, but should work.  Anyone else have any experience comparing the two?

 

Also, thinking about things I can do with meat glue.  Specifically, about putting cheese or butter in the center of a chicken breast before gluing it closed, then cooking sv.  Anyone have experience with this and tips or recipes to share, or any concerns about food safety that wouldn't be handled by the normal approach to cooking chicken sv?

 

Thanks.


Edited by jmasur, 18 May 2014 - 10:21 AM.






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