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Stomping Through the "Savoy" (2007–2008)


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#91 David Santucci

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 05:59 PM

I'd also like to know how a decent homemade Sirop-de-Citron compares to the pretty crap, (by my own admission,) Monin Lemon Syrup.

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I dunno, but I'm guessing it won't be any better than just using fresh squeezed lemon juice, simple syrup and a twist.

#92 eje

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 11:45 PM

I dunno, but I'm guessing it won't be any better than just using fresh squeezed lemon juice, simple syrup and a twist.

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The most interesting recipe for Sirop-de-Citron I reproduced in this eGullet post:

Sirop-de-Citron

You thinly slice three lemons, macerate them in 400kg of sugar for 4 days, briefly boil them, and then mash and strain. I've no idea why I haven't done that yet. Laziness. It seems like it would be a lot more intense than other versions I've read. Definitely get some of the bitter kick from the pith.
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#93 thirtyoneknots

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 09:18 AM

Erik, that is assuming that the historical Kola Tonic is identical (or similarly sweet) to the Rose's product today, yes?  If it were more similar to what Doc describes as perhaps "an aperitif beverage" it wouldn't be so sweet, no?  More like a sweet vermouth?

I'm not really sure what the deal is with respect to the Filmograph.  Just speculating.

Doc's update for modern tastes and ingredients is

2 oz : brandy
3/4 oz : lemon juice
1/2 oz : kola tonic

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Many things Continental Europeans consider 'aperitifs' are quite sweet, especially by American standards. Pineau de Charentes, much Prosecco, even some of the (relatively) dryer styles of ports are considered aperitifs while not being dry by American standards. I think the kicker was how much bitterness perhaps was contributed by the kola nuts (and caffeine) and how much sugar was in it. Of course even being off-dry, it could still have functioned that way. I mean even modern Lillet does the trick and I don't think anyone would consider that stuff dry.

I bet that if the syrup was high quality and reigned in the sweetness a bit, and the tonicola was on par with Lillet, you could come up with something here on par with a de la Louisiane in the sweetness dept, which, while being something I personally prefer as a meal-closer, would not have been super unusual as a richer style aperitif in days gone by.

Just my take.
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#94 thirtyoneknots

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 09:20 AM

I dunno, but I'm guessing it won't be any better than just using fresh squeezed lemon juice, simple syrup and a twist.

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The most interesting recipe for Sirop-de-Citron I reproduced in this eGullet post:

Sirop-de-Citron

You thinly slice three lemons, macerate them in 400kg of sugar for 4 days, briefly boil them, and then mash and strain. I've no idea why I haven't done that yet. Laziness. It seems like it would be a lot more intense than other versions I've read. Definitely get some of the bitter kick from the pith.

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That's quite a bit of sugar, even for a syrup.
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#95 slkinsey

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 09:36 AM

Er... that's a typo. It's 400 grams of sugar, not 400 kilograms of sugar. The 400 grams of sugar (roughly 1.75 cups) are macerated with three whole sliced lemons, which give up their liquid into the sugar, then the whole works is boiled for 5 minutes and the syrup strained off. Doesn't seem like it would be much more concentrated than a regular 1:1 simple syrup, and of course would have the bitterness from the pith as well as as the acid from the lemon juice to balance the sweetness.

Seems easy. I've got some extra lemons around, maybe I'll make some.

Edited by slkinsey, 29 January 2008 - 09:43 AM.

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#96 mbanu

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 10:19 AM

Erik, that is assuming that the historical Kola Tonic is identical (or similarly sweet) to the Rose's product today, yes?  If it were more similar to what Doc describes as perhaps "an aperitif beverage" it wouldn't be so sweet, no?  More like a sweet vermouth?


Perhaps kola tonic was a drink concentrate syrup? That would help explain the dual nature.

As to sirop de citron, I always figured it was a precursor to sour mix, maybe something like a lemon-based version of Rose's lime cordial. It's sweet, sure, but you can tell that its role in drinks is as a souring agent. Take the CocktailDB recipes for a White Baby and a White Lady, for instance. One is quite obviously a variant of the other.

#97 eje

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 10:33 AM

Er... that's a typo.  It's 400 grams of sugar, not 400 kilograms of sugar.  The 400 grams of sugar (roughly 1.75 cups) are macerated with three whole sliced lemons, which give up their liquid into the sugar, then the whole works is boiled for 5 minutes and the syrup strained off.[...]

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Woops!

Thanks for the metric correction!

I'll have to pick up some lemons this Saturday and give it a try.

Erik
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#98 bostonapothecary

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 11:14 AM

Er... that's a typo.  It's 400 grams of sugar, not 400 kilograms of sugar.  The 400 grams of sugar (roughly 1.75 cups) are macerated with three whole sliced lemons, which give up their liquid into the sugar, then the whole works is boiled for 5 minutes and the syrup strained off.[...]

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Woops!

Thanks for the metric correction!

I'll have to pick up some lemons this Saturday and give it a try.

Erik

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i've gone threw quite alot of clayton's kola tonic but never had the roses... i don't think you could balance 1/2 of clayton's with 3/4 oz. lemon juice... it would be quite tart beyond the average of most people's tastes... clayton's is fairly complex stuff with lots of gingery notes. i don't really think it is challengingly bitter at all. i wonder if turn of the century tonics were comparable to jamaican "rootsman" tonics that you can get today. the are bitter, very complex, and usually have kola nuts as the dominant flavor.

i just helped my pastry chef to make bergamot orange sorbet... pretty wild stuff. the unchilled base of a lemon sorbet might be somewhat like syrup de citron... you peel your fruit thin and blanch them a couple times to remove the bitter which is seen as a negative... you often candy the peels as well. then all the syrup you candied them in which takes in a huge amount of flavor from the peel gets put into the sorbet with the juice of the fruit and we added martini and rossi bianco vermouth which turned out to be a phenomenal combo... i don't know if we added more acid or not by way of lemon juice or citric acid... but even with all the sugar going in alot of care was put to minimize the pith bitter...
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#99 slkinsey

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 11:20 AM

i've gone threw quite alot of clayton's kola tonic but never had the roses... i don't think you could balance 1/2 of clayton's with 3/4 oz. lemon juice... it would be quite tart beyond the average of most people's tastes...

Interesting. Two questions:

1. Where do you get Clayton's

2. How do you think Clayton's would balance with an equal amount of sirop de citron (assuming that this is more tart/bitter than lemon syrup)?
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#100 bostonapothecary

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 11:42 AM

i've gone threw quite alot of clayton's kola tonic but never had the roses... i don't think you could balance 1/2 of clayton's with 3/4 oz. lemon juice... it would be quite tart beyond the average of most people's tastes...

Interesting. Two questions:

1. Where do you get Clayton's

2. How do you think Clayton's would balance with an equal amount of sirop de citron (assuming that this is more tart/bitter than lemon syrup)?

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i got clayton's at the tropico supermarket in roxbury. its a very large ultra ethnic market... i probably went through 24+ 750's over the course of last year. they have a halt on importation because they used dyes that turned out to be banned in the U.S. i was told they are reformulating. its about as sweet as sweet vermouth. 25 brix or so... i don't think it would balance or you'd have to use 2:1/2:1/2 kind of measurement...

a couple days ago i had some tart seville orange juice which was left over from making a batch of creole shrub... it was intensely tart and had awsome flavor. it made me wonder if many of the recipes calling for orange juice really meant a specific type like seville... there are quite alot of drinks where it would make a big difference from the ward eight to the st. james... i think i'm gonna get some more sevilles and see if those cocktails have better balance...
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#101 jmfangio

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 12:02 PM

The most interesting recipe for Sirop-de-Citron I reproduced in this eGullet post:

Sirop-de-Citron

You thinly slice three lemons, macerate them in 400kg of sugar for 4 days, briefly boil them, and then mash and strain.  I've no idea why I haven't done that yet.  Laziness.  It seems like it would be a lot more intense than other versions I've read.  Definitely get some of the bitter kick from the pith.

View Post



There was a similar recipe for a homemade lime cordial on The Spirit World last month. I made it with yuzu and lime, and it has a wonderful depth of flavor, and (so far) is holding up very well in the fridge. (I couldn't find tartaric acid so I made it without, and I don't think that it suffered for it).

edit: fixed wonky quoting.

Edited by jmfangio, 29 January 2008 - 08:22 PM.

"Martinis should always be stirred, not shaken, so that the molecules lie sensuously one on top of the other." - W. Somerset Maugham

#102 eje

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 02:46 PM

i've gone threw quite alot of clayton's kola tonic but never had the roses... i don't think you could balance 1/2 of clayton's with 3/4 oz. lemon juice... it would be quite tart beyond the average of most people's tastes... clayton's is fairly complex stuff with lots of gingery notes. i don't really think it is challengingly bitter at all. i wonder if turn of the century tonics were comparable to jamaican "rootsman" tonics that you can get today. the are bitter, very complex, and usually have kola nuts as the dominant flavor.

i just helped my pastry chef to make bergamot orange sorbet... pretty wild stuff.  the unchilled base of a lemon sorbet might be somewhat like syrup de citron...
[...]

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Interesting about Clayton's. It does sound like it is a bit less sweet and maybe more complex than the Rose's Kola. To me Rose's is more about cinnamon-ish spice and musty funk than ginger. However, I wouldn't put the sweetness of the Rose's too far from Cinzano Rosso. I just don't think it has as much bitterness to balance that sweetness. I'll have to try Dr. Cocktails formulation for the Filmograph later this week.

You're absolutely right in suggesting that methods are similar for making a sorbet base and Sirop (syrups.) You could probably use recipes interchangeably.
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#103 evo-lution

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 07:50 AM

Finally got my hands on my own original copy of the Savoy Cocktail Book this week, :smile:, so I'll be able to follow this thread with more interest.

My copy included a couple of newspaper clippings (every book I seem to get my hands on does). One of them was an article printed when Harry Craddock retired, titled Invented the 'White Lady'.

SEVENTY-FOUR YEAR OLD Harry Craddock, one of the world's best-known barmen - he has been at the American bar of the Dorchester Hotel, London since 1939 - retired yesterday.

In 55 years he has mixed 20,000,000 cocktails - in Chicago, New York, London.  He claims 250 cocktails, including the "White Lady" and "Paradise" as Craddock inventions.

"As an appetiser, one cocktail is enough," he says.  "Two is plenty and three is not half enough."


There's also a 'Cointreau cocktail card' (don't know how else to describe it :wacko: ) that includes recipes for :-

The Silent Third Cocktail

1/3 Cointreau
1/3 Lemon Juice
1/3 Scotch Whisky

The Sidecar Cocktail

1/3 Cointreau
1/3 Lemon Juice
1/3 Brandy

The White Lady Cocktail

1/3 Cointreau
1/3 Lemon Juice
1/3 London Gin

The card is stamped on the back by 'Aylward & Sons LTD. Winchester'.

There's also a recipe for 'Ginger Pop' that a previous owner has left in the book, as well as a recipe for 'Sloe Gin' that's been hand-written into the back of the book.
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#104 eje

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 07:56 AM

Cool, Adam!

Which version/printing of the Savoy Cocktail Book?

A couple odd things we've noticed with some first editions, is they may contain the Bacardi Cocktail on a slip of paper. Some others seem to have been manufactured in cooperation with Booth's Gin, and have a section at the back dedicated to recipes for cocktails with Booth's.
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#105 eje

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 07:56 AM

Posted Image

Fine and Dandy Cocktail

1/4 Lemon Juice. (1/2 oz fresh lemon juice)
1/4 Cointreau. (1/2 oz Cointreau)
1/2 Plymouth Gin. (1 oz Plymouth Gin)
1 Dash Angostura Bitters.

Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Well, it is a "Fine and Dandy" cocktail. It doesn't quite match the special magic of either the Pegu Club or the Sidecar. Still, all in all, quite enjoyable.
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#106 eje

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 10:20 AM

[...]
Fine and Dandy Cocktail

1/4 Lemon Juice. (1/2 oz fresh lemon juice)
1/4 Cointreau. (1/2 oz Cointreau)
1/2 Plymouth Gin. (1 oz Plymouth Gin)
1 Dash Angostura Bitters.

Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.
[...]

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Oh, and it is nice not to have to second guess a single ingredient or technique for a change! Lemon Juice, check. Cointreau, check. Plymouth Gin, check, (well, ok, there might be a slight "proof" issue here.) Angostura Bitters, check. Shake well and strain. And we're done!
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#107 evo-lution

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 05:37 PM

Which version/printing of the Savoy Cocktail Book?


It's a first edition. My (ex) girlfriend, :sad: , got it for my birthday.

A couple odd things we've noticed with some first editions, is they may contain the Bacardi Cocktail on a slip of paper.


Yeah, that's the one that I have. :smile: The Bacardi Cocktail is on a slip of paper between pages 24/25.

On the inside cover, someone has written their name (which I can't make out properly) and the date, 12.11.1930
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#108 jmfangio

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 06:04 PM

SEVENTY-FOUR YEAR OLD Harry Craddock, one of the world's best-known barmen - he has been at the American bar of the Dorchester Hotel, London since 1939 - retired yesterday.

In 55 years he has mixed 20,000,000 cocktails - in Chicago, New York, London.  He claims 250 cocktails, including the "White Lady" and "Paradise" as Craddock inventions.

"As an appetiser, one cocktail is enough," he says.  "Two is plenty and three is not half enough."


Hmmm...so Harry may not have just been cribbing recipes, but quotes as well. I believe it was James Thurber who said, "One martini is all right. Two are too many, and three are not enough."


(My apologies to Harry's memory if indeed it was Thurber who was cribbing from him).
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#109 eje

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 10:43 AM

Posted Image

Five-Fifteen Cocktail

1/3 Curacao. (3/4 oz Luxardo Orange Triplum)
1/3 French Vermouth. (3/4 oz Dolin Dry Vermouth)
1/3 Sweet Cream. (3/4 oz Cream)

Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

I knew I'd made something like this before: Bud's Special Cocktail. This is nominally closer to idea of a Creamsickle in drink form, than the Bud's Special had been, and a bit more pleasant. Still, not really the sort of drink I can finish.
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#110 eje

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 01:36 PM

Posted Image

Fluffy Ruffles Cocktail

1/2 Bacardi Rum. (1 oz Flor de Cana Extra Dry, 1/4 oz Inner Circle Green)
1/2 Italian Vermouth. (1 oz Martini and Rossi Rosso)
The Peel of 1 Lime or Piece of Lemon. (Peel from a lime)

Shake (stir, please) well and strain into cocktail glass. (For extra fun, I added the peel to the drink for the picture. It looked neat, but made it difficult to drink.)

OK, I couldn't resist slipping a little "character rum" in to zip up the flavor of the Flor de Cana in this cocktail. If Havana Club is any indication of the flavor vintage Bacardi Rum had, it probably had a little more funk than the very clean Flor de Cana.

The Fluffy Ruffles is a pleasant, lime tinged, rum Manhattan. I dare you to order it!

A quick google tells me "Fluffy Ruffles" was musical comedy by Hattie Williams which made its theatrical debut at New York's Criterion Theatre in the fall of 1908. Many of the songs in this production were co-written by Jerome Kern. Also, I find sheet music from earlier dates than that, so it appears it was first a ragtime song, or perhaps just that it was a popular name for songs, well, being that it refers to the fluffy ruffles of women's petticoats.
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#111 eje

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 09:56 AM

Posted Image

Flying Scotchman Cocktail
(6 People)

2 1/2 Glasses Italian Vermouth. (1 oz Martini & Rossi Rosso)
3 Glasses Scotch Whisky. (1 1/2 oz Compass Box Asyla Scotch)
1 Tablespoonful Bitters. (Generous couple dashes Angostura Bitters)
1 Tablespoonful Sugar Syrup. (1/2 teaspoon Depaz Cane Syrup)

Shake (stir, please) well and strain into cocktail glass.

A slightly sweetened and rather heavily bittered Rob Roy?

Perfectly enjoyable cocktail, as far as I am concerned.

"The Flying Scotchman" train running between Edinburgh and London, was, for a time in the 1800s, the fastest train in the world. It appears it was only bested in 1888 by a train called the "West Coast Flyer":

FLYING OVER THE RAILS; THE FAMOUS "FLYING SCOTCHMAN" OUTDONE.A TEST OF SPEED ON TWO GREAT ENGLISH RAILROADS--ATTAINING A RATE OF 75 MILES AN HOUR.
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#112 mkayahara

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 10:18 AM

Flying Scotchman Cocktail
(6 People)

2 1/2 Glasses Italian Vermouth. (1 oz Martini & Rossi Rosso)
3 Glasses Scotch Whisky. (1 1/2 oz Compass Box Asyla Scotch)
1 Tablespoonful Bitters. (Generous couple dashes Angostura Bitters)
1 Tablespoonful Sugar Syrup. (1/2 teaspoon Depaz Cane Syrup)

Shake (stir, please) well and strain into cocktail glass.

A slightly sweetened and rather heavily bittered Rob Roy?


I always wonder with recipes like this whether the "bitters" in question are aromatic bitters or aperitif bitters. Maybe it's worth trying this one out with one of the Italian amari?

Edited to add quote, and then to say:

Oh, wait. I just realized I was mixing units. The tablespoonful of bitters is for the 6-people portion, not the scaled down version. Oops!

Edited by mkayahara, 05 February 2008 - 10:22 AM.

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#113 eje

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:04 AM

Posted Image

Four Flush Cocktail

1 Dash Grenadine or Syrup. (homemade)
1/4 French Vermouth. (1/2 oz Dolin Dry Vermouth)
1/4 Swedish Punch. (1/2 oz Carlshamm's Flaggpunsch)
1/2 Bacardi Rum. (1 oz Flor de Cana Rum)
(1/4 oz Inner Circle Green Rum)

Shake (stir, please) well and strain into cocktail glass. (Drop in a cherry garnish.)

Again unable to resist the urge to add a touch of "character rum" to a cocktail calling for Bacardi.

Quite sweet, but not unpleasant. I'm always surprised by how dominant the Swedish Punsch is in the cocktails which contain it.
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#114 eje

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 09:08 AM

Posted Image

Fourth Degree Cocktail

1/3 French Vermouth. (3/4 oz Dolin Dry Vermouth)
1/3 Gin. (3/4 oz Tanqueray Dry Gin)
1/3 Italian Vermouth. (3/4 oz Martini & Rossi Rosso)
4 Dashes of Absinthe. (1 tsp. Absinthe Verte de Fougerolles)

Shake (stir, please) well and strain into cocktail glass. (Squeeze lemon peel on top.)

I was all set to say I preferred this cocktail with the proportions dried out a bit. I've made it in the past with 2 oz Junipero, 1/2 oz French Vermouth, and 1/2 oz Italian Vermouth and really enjoyed it. I've made that version for friends and they've really enjoyed it. Other times, I've made the equal parts version with different ingredients and not enjoyed it as much.

This time, for whatever reason, this particular combination of ingredients was fantastic. There was a cherry/almond flavor that seemed to come out of nowhere, blindsiding me, and daring me to replicate it. What do you call that? Flavor harmonics?

The Savoy version of this Harry McElhone Cocktail doesn't include the lemon peel garnish, but it really takes the drink to another level. I don't recommend skipping it.
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#115 slkinsey

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 09:34 AM

Anyone know the origin of the name "Fourth Degree"?
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#116 eje

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 10:06 AM

Doesn't really answer your question, but, interesting nonetheless...

Robert Vermeire, in his 1922 book "Cocktails: How to Mix Them," includes the Third and Fourth Degree cocktails along with the Martinez.

Saying, "The Fourth Degree is a Martinez Cocktail (Continental Style) with a dash of Absinthe and a cherry, but 1/4 gill of Gin, 1/8 gill of French Vermouth, 1/8 gill of Vermouth should be used."

About The Third Degree, he says, "The Third Degree is a Martinez Cocktail (Continental Style) with a dash of Absinthe and an olive, but 2/6 gill of Gin and 1/6 gill of French Vermouth should be used."

He gives the "continental style" of Martinez as:

Fill the bar glass half full of broken ice and add:

2 dashes Orange Bitters
3 dashes of Curacao or Maraschino
1/4 gill of Old Tom Gin
1/4 gill of French Vermouth

Stir up well, strain into a cocktail-glass, add olive or cherry to taste, and squeeze lemon-peel on top.  This drink is very popular on the Continent.


He uses the term "Continental" to differentiate from the English style of Martinez:

In England the Martinez Cocktail generally contains the following ingredients:

2 dashes of Orange Syrup
2 dashes of Angostura Bitters
1/4 gill of Plymouth Gin
1/4 gill of French Vermouth

The whole stirred up in ice in the bar glass, strained into a cocktail-glass with a lemon peel squeezed on top.  Olive or Cherry according to taste.


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#117 slkinsey

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 11:00 AM

Hmm. The Third Degree cocktail recipes I'm used to seeing have dry vermouth and pastis.

Mostly I'm wondering about the name, though.
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#118 bostonapothecary

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 11:42 AM

Hmm.  The Third Degree cocktail recipes I'm used to seeing have dry vermouth and pastis.

Mostly I'm wondering about the name, though.

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it was a movie from 1926... movie inspired cocktail names seem to be popular...
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#119 eje

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 01:10 PM

Phrases.co.uk Explains the phrase "Third Degree":

The classification of the qualities of objects by degree - heat and cold, moisture and dryness etc. - was commonplace in the middle ages. Henry Lyte's translation of Dodoens' Niewe herball or historie of plantes, 1578 includes a description of rue:

    "Rue is hoate and dry in the thirde degree."


Including this amusing quote from Shakespeare's Twelfth Night, 1601:

"For he's in the third degree of drinke: hee's drown'd: go looke after him."


But, most common use of the "Third Degree" refers to the Masons. When a candidate enters the "third degree," or "Master Mason," they are subjected to a number of tests including an interrogation.

To me, the use of the term for the drink is probably related to the the masonic use. It's a complex and sophisticated cocktail. Something Joe and Judy Schmo, (or Jacques and Jacqueline,) in from the country for a night on the town aren't probably going to appreciate. They're going to want gimlets, sidecars, or highballs. Something a little simpler. It probably takes a "third degree adept of drinkology," to properly appreciate this variation on the Martinez.

In regards "Absinthe," by 1922 Absinthe had been banned in France, where Vermeire was bartending, for around 8 years. Unless he was using homemade steepsinthe or illegally produced Absinthe, he was probably using post-ban "Pernod" in these cocktails. I don't believe the term "Pastis" was used commonly to refer to these post-ban products until more recently. At least, I don't remember seeing the term "pastis" as an ingredient in cocktail books until relatively modern times.

Though, if a bartender was pulling out a stash of banned Absinthe, that would really be something you would imagine they would reserve for "Third Degree Bar Adepts" and very good friends.

The Fourth Degree of Masonry is the "Mark Master."

edit - By the way, this theory is just complete and utter speculation on my part.

Edited by eje, 09 February 2008 - 06:08 PM.

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Erik Ellestad
If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...
Bernal Heights, SF, CA

#120 thirtyoneknots

thirtyoneknots
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Posted 10 February 2008 - 08:59 PM

Killer Cocktails states without further explanation that the 'Third Degree' cocktail was so named for it's excessive dryness, being 7:1 at a time when 1:1 was the norm. I think it's one drink where a very light touch with the absinthe really is needed. It seems to intensify the juniper aspects of the drink.

As for the Fourth Degree, I have nothing but wild and uneducated (but stopping short of wildly uneducated) speculation.
Andy Arrington

Journeyman Drinksmith

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