917 replies to this topic

[EnriqueB]

I'm not sure about EU regulations, but all local sources I've looked up, as well as butcher's, use the following classification:

Ternera de leche (milk's veal): Male or female <8 months
Ternera (veal): Male or female 8-12 months
Añojo: Male or female 12-24 months (wrote <18 in previous entry, further search seems that it can be up to 24)
Novillo: Male or female 24-48 months
Cebón: Castrated male <48 months

Vaca (beef): Female >48 months
Buey (ox): Castrated male >48 months
Toro (bull): Male coming from bullfights >48 months

From those, nowadays you only find easily the ones in boldface. Ox you can buy, but it's quite expensive and I'm convinced often you're sold meat that is not actually ox...

[pep.]

I'm preparing some pork belly for "pork feast" next weekend.


As a first course, I'm planning to do rillettes based on this recipe, but substituting some left-over pâté spice mixture for everything except the juniper berries and garlic. Oh, and I omit the fatback, as my belly is from a mangalitsa pig and not lean at all. And of course I'm cooking the cubes sous-vide. Based on the confit recommendations, I'm trying 82 °C overnight. Or should I use a lower temperature? I just put it in, so it's not yet heated through completely.

The main dish will be sous-vide pork belly with a teriyaki glaze (from Ferran Adria's Family Meal) and some separately prepared crunchy skin. I don't have Instacure #1 (the pink salt available in stores over here only has nitrates, not nitrites, so I can't easily substitute and I don't have the time to do a long cure), so I will be using the basic MC brine with 7 % salt and 3 % sugar (to 100 % water). What brining time should I calculate for two 800-900 g pieces (instead of the whole 2.4 kg belly in MC)?

[pep.]

Pork belly question: I've cooked (~45 hours at 62°) and individually portioned the pork belly. The meal is on Saturday. Should I

• freeze the portioned belly today and put it into the fridge to thaw tomorrow evening,
• re-pasteurize at least the surface of the portions by dipping them into not-quite boiling water (followed by an ice bath of course) and keep them in the fridge until Saturday,
• or, should I dispense with all that and keep them in the fridge as-is?

Edit: Added picture of the pork belly after brining.

Edited by pep., 19 April 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[KennethT]

If the meal is only 2 days away and your refrigerator is moderately cold, I'd say that you're fine leaving in the fridge as is. I would probably wrap each portion in a few layers of plastic wrap and leave in the fridge...

[pep.]

If the meal is only 2 days away and your refrigerator is moderately cold, I'd say that you're fine leaving in the fridge as is. I would probably wrap each portion in a few layers of plastic wrap and leave in the fridge...

Ah. By "portioned" I meant to infer that I vacuum sealed them again afterwards.

[PedroG]

See FDA's Refrigerator & Freezer Storage Chart -> 7 days will be OK in the fridge.

[KennethT]

Right - even if vacuum sealed again, 2 days in the refrigerator should be no problem...

[pep.]

See FDA's Refrigerator & Freezer Storage Chart -> 7 days will be OK in the fridge.

Thanks everyone! I was leaning towards simple refrigeration already. However, one small question, PedroG: Where do you get the 7 days from that chart?

[EnriqueB]

Its 1 piece from the shoulder and 1 piece of belly.

I wanted to experiment with this: http://egullet.org/p1672174
Keller is doing his at 82.2 for 12h

The shoulder has a number of muscles. I probably wouldn't run any as high as 82C, but would adjust temperature depending on which muscle I was using.

I just cooked pork shoulder with achiote paste for a cochinita pibil sous-vide. First time to cook shoulder, I did not differentiate between the different muscles. Avaserfi, do you think there is much of a difference on how the different muscles should be cooked?

I put the bath at 60ºC and two bags, the first one removed after 48 hours, the second after 72 hours. 72 hours was too much, meat lost more liquid and was a bit mushy. 48 hours was very good, but I may try shorter (24 or 36) next time.

[avaserfi]

Its 1 piece from the shoulder and 1 piece of belly.

I wanted to experiment with this: http://egullet.org/p1672174
Keller is doing his at 82.2 for 12h

The shoulder has a number of muscles. I probably wouldn't run any as high as 82C, but would adjust temperature depending on which muscle I was using.

I just cooked pork shoulder with achiote paste for a cochinita pibil sous-vide. First time to cook shoulder, I did not differentiate between the different muscles. Avaserfi, do you think there is much of a difference on how the different muscles should be cooked?

I put the bath at 60ºC and two bags, the first one removed after 48 hours, the second after 72 hours. 72 hours was too much, meat lost more liquid and was a bit mushy. 48 hours was very good, but I may try shorter (24 or 36) next time.

I haven't experimented with this as much as I would like, but there are a number of very different muscles in the shoulder that respond differently to cooking. My favorite cut of pork, the collar is great seared and I would never take it longer than 24 hours at 60C, probably closer to 6-12 hours. A small part of the jowl steak often makes it into the shoulder too, I like this at about 5 hours at 60C.

Beyond those cuts, when cooking shoulder traditionally, I rarely consider treating each muscle differently and have not had the opportunity to do so when cooking low temperature. It would be interesting to take a small portion of each muscle in the shoulder and bag them separately to see the effects of cooking time and temperature. Considering that the shoulder houses muscles with the same anatomical structure as the beef flat iron and the teres major, which I suspect would work better with shorter cook times, it might be a worth while experiment. That said, if you get a cross section of shoulder, these pieces would make up a relatively small portion of the meat cooked.

I can say, lately I have been experimenting with shorter cook times for most cuts and have strongly preferred the shorter cook times. For example, I find a 16hr 56C short rib far preferable in flavor and texture to the more common 72 hour short rib, but I have yet to do any real experiments with pork shoulder.

[Doodad]

I have been having a blast the past week with my new SVS. Scallops, shrimp, brisket, eggs and salmon so far. Pork loin cochinita this weekend. Shrimp has been my favorite so far. I need to play with brisket and salmon more to get a feel for time and temp. Also want to make and freeze some marinades to place in the bag. Oh I have some chicken thighs to play with this weekend as well.

[lesliec]

My local supermarket had a special on what they called veal cutlets on Saturday - I suspect a cancelled export order, to judge from the packaging. They consist of racks of eight tiny rib bones.

Since they're about the same size and shape of lamb racks, for which I find SV particularly good, I thought I'd try the same time/temp and see how it goes (for lamb I go with 56°C for two or three hours, followed by a sear). Any alternative suggestions?

[WJConrad]

I've got a Polyscience coming this week, hopefully. A few small questions: I know I can use up to 30 quarts, should I just go buy a big stockpot at the local restaurant supply place, or would a cooler work better?

My current shopping list is some sort of food sealer, the aforementioned vessel to cook in, and a ton of ping pong balls for insulation thanks to PedroG. I've got water tight silicone gloves to use in the hot water, and a cast iron pan for searing. Anything else I really need to get started? I want my first sous vide run to be 72 hour short ribs, which is pretty much the reason I bought the thing.

[slkinsey]

Why not get a lexan with a lid?

Stock pots work okay, and have the added benefit of being multitaskers. It's what I normally use. But something that's shallower and wider (like a lexan or a cooler) would be more convenient, especially when putting in lots of items.

Personally, I don't get the whole pingpong balls thing. With a lexan or a cooler, just modify the lid to accommodate the circulator. If you're using a stock pot, just get a restaurant-sized roll of cling film (which is great to have around the kitchen anyway) and cover the stock pot with cling film when doing extended sous vide cooking (there is little need for any cover if you're doing fewer than 8 hours or so).

[rotuts]

Cooler.

the lid will come off, and BTW they are not insulated. You can insulate it with foam you get in those cans: just get the non-expanding kind. drill a few holes on each side and fill. wear plastic gloves.

when set, cut out an opening on one side of the lid to accommodate the PS, and your are done.

saves energy, evaporation etc.

[EnriqueB]

I haven't experimented with this as much as I would like, but there are a number of very different muscles in the shoulder that respond differently to cooking. My favorite cut of pork, the collar is great seared and I would never take it longer than 24 hours at 60C, probably closer to 6-12 hours. A small part of the jowl steak often makes it into the shoulder too, I like this at about 5 hours at 60C.

Beyond those cuts, when cooking shoulder traditionally, I rarely consider treating each muscle differently and have not had the opportunity to do so when cooking low temperature. It would be interesting to take a small portion of each muscle in the shoulder and bag them separately to see the effects of cooking time and temperature. Considering that the shoulder houses muscles with the same anatomical structure as the beef flat iron and the teres major, which I suspect would work better with shorter cook times, it might be a worth while experiment. That said, if you get a cross section of shoulder, these pieces would make up a relatively small portion of the meat cooked.

Thanks Andrew! I have also just read in MC that some muscles in the shoulder can even be considered tender cuts. For my latest tests I bought the whole pork shoulder, so I could have make the test, but I wasn't aware of the differences and it's too late now. Will think about it next time.

I can say, lately I have been experimenting with shorter cook times for most cuts and have strongly preferred the shorter cook times. For example, I find a 16hr 56C short rib far preferable in flavor and texture to the more common 72 hour short rib, but I have yet to do any real experiments with pork shoulder.

This is something I must also try. I guess the shorter times produce firmer, more solid, textures, don't they?

[avaserfi]

Thanks Andrew! I have also just read in MC that some muscles in the shoulder can even be considered tender cuts. For my latest tests I bought the whole pork shoulder, so I could have make the test, but I wasn't aware of the differences and it's too late now. Will think about it next time.

You bought a whole shoulder? That is perfect for experimenting. Seam butcher it separating each and every muscle (I know, easier said that done, but even if you haven't done it before some careful persistence will get you close enough). Once butchered cook each muscle as a tender piece and a hard piece, then compare.

This is something I must also try. I guess the shorter times produce firmer, more solid, textures, don't they?

Yes, more firm and toothsome, but even so I have never found something tough or unpalatable. In some cases, I have also found the more intense. I've always thought a 72hour short rib loses some beefiness.

[ScottyBoy]

Shrimp has been my favorite so far.

What was your time and temp with shrimp? I haven't done shellfish SV yet, just seemed like something that wouldn't benefit from it.

[Charcuterer]

Why not get a lexan with a lid?

This is what I did. Williams-sonoma had the 1/1 lexan container as a bonus with my PS professional. I found a lid on Amazon and used a jigsaw to cut out a 3 1/2 X 4 inch opening. I then used an X-Acto knife to trim it up. Here's what it looks like with corned beef brisket.

[EnriqueB]

You bought a whole shoulder? That is perfect for experimenting. Seam butcher it separating each and every muscle (I know, easier said that done, but even if you haven't done it before some careful persistence will get you close enough). Once butchered cook each muscle as a tender piece and a hard piece, then compare.

Too late, I already used most of it! Bones and 1 kg minced meat for stock, 1.5 kg for pressure-cooked carnitas and another 1,5 kg for cochinita pibil sous-vide! And froze the remaining 1 kg...

Next time I'll try to experiment as you describe.

Enrique

[m61376]

Why not get a lexan with a lid?

This is what I did. Williams-sonoma had the 1/1 lexan container as a bonus with my PS professional. I found a lid on Amazon and used a jigsaw to cut out a 3 1/2 X 4 inch opening. I then used an X-Acto knife to trim it up. Here's what it looks like with corned beef brisket.

Did basically the same thing, only my hubbie used his Dremel to do the cutting. Here's a good tip: I see from the picture your top warps a bit with the heat too; I use large binder clips in each corner to keep a tighter seal, which helps with longer cooks.

[Doodad]

Shrimp has been my favorite so far.

What was your time and temp with shrimp? I haven't done shellfish SV yet, just seemed like something that wouldn't benefit from it.

I did shrimp and scallops at the same time. Seasoned the shrimp like cajun bbq shrimp and added butter. Cooked at 140/60 for 30 minutes. Poached BBQ shrimp. Perfect texture.

[KennethT]

I'm sure it was posted at some point before, but I can't find it now.... anyone have good temp for turkey breast that will be sliced cold and used for sandwiches?

[rotuts]

Ive been very happy with Turkey breast both hot and cold using 145 for 3 - 4 hours

[philie]

dear egullet members,
i am very happy to be part of this forum from now on!
i read the egullet forums every since but now that questions arise - especially on the topic of sous vide - i though it would be time to become a member!

i hope it is ok if i post a question already:

i will be preparing a sous vide dinner - a typically south german dish called "rippchen" which translates to ribs but actually is brined and precooked meat. i would love to cook the meat which already is cooked, btw. it is pork cutlet, to be prepared sous vide. anyway, i did some test at 68degrees celsius for 2 hours and the meat came out rather dry and chewy. since i will be preparing about 5kg (10pounds) of meat i would love to know your suggestion since i have never handled the already cooked meat to make it even tender.

thank you very much in advance!
phil

[KennethT]

Where does the pork cutlet come from? Is it the loin? If it's the loin,then I think your temp is too hot for too much time. I usually do pork loin at roughly 57C for as much time as it takes to pasteurize, depending on thickness. If it's everythin,it won't be that long - maybe a half hour? Best to either check the tables from the first SV thread (there's an index to it) or download the awesome Sous Vide Dash app if you have an iPhone or iPad.
ETA: what is this "previously cooked" stuff? How/ why is it previously cooked?

Edited by KennethT, 05 May 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[Mjx]

. . . .

i will be preparing a sous vide dinner - a typically south german dish called "rippchen" which translates to ribs but actually is brined and precooked meat. i would love to cook the meat which already is cooked, btw. it is pork cutlet, to be prepared sous vide. anyway, i did some test at 68degrees celsius for 2 hours and the meat came out rather dry and chewy. since i will be preparing about 5kg (10pounds) of meat i would love to know your suggestion since i have never handled the already cooked meat to make it even tender.

If the meat is already cooked, I'm not sure there's much to be gained by essentially reheating it sous vide; the initial cooking will have already determined the consistency to a very large extent, so if it was cooked in a way that made it dry/tough, there isn't anything to do that will reverse that, although there are things that can disguise/compensate for the texture (e.g. shredding + a sauce).

[pep.]

Where does the pork cutlet come from? Is it the loin? If it's the loin,then I think your temp is too hot for too much time. I usually do pork loin at roughly 57C for as much time as it takes to pasteurize, depending on thickness. If it's everythin,it won't be that long - maybe a half hour? Best to either check the tables from the first SV thread (there's an index to it) or download the awesome Sous Vide Dash app if you have an iPhone or iPad.
ETA: what is this "previously cooked" stuff? How/ why is it previously cooked?

I think phillie means something like http://en.wikipedia....furter_Rippchen which is cured pork loin cutlet. Personally, I would do this in the mid-50s as well.

Edited by pep., 05 May 2012 - 07:48 AM.

[rotuts]

The question might be refined by asking if a previously cooked cut of meat can be further tenderized SV?

These chops, at a 'medium' heat of say 140 for 8 hours, might be an experiment that would answer this question.

If the chops were 'dry' beforehand, they will remain dry after this. If they were 'moist' beforehand, then the result after 8 hours would be worth noting.

Love to hear the answer.

[pep.]

i will be preparing a sous vide dinner - a typically south german dish called "rippchen" which translates to ribs but actually is brined and precooked meat.

Are you sure that the Rippchen are pre-cooked and not just cured (gepökelt)?