1196 replies to this topic

[JanK]

Here's a little different use for SV equipment. No vacuum involved, and you don't even need to use a bag, but it takes advantage of the LTLT control that's achievable with a simple home SV set up.

I don't have a PID controller. Instead, I use a "bang-bang" controller from Ranco. A PID controller should work just as well though, if not better.

Basically, it's a temperature-controlled simmering pot (kind of like a crock pot with a more precise temperature control mechanism). It's not always easy to get a pot of whatever you're cooking to maintain the proper simmer temp over a multi-hour period, particularly if you don't want to monitor it frequently. This makes the long simmering process a slam dunk.

I simply plunk the probe into the pot (which in this case is enameled cast iron, but could be just about anything else), then set the pot on a standalone electric burner that in turn is plugged into the controller. Set whatever simmer temp you want (usually something in the 190-205F range) and away you go. Since it's just simmering, the precision of the temp control isn't nearly as critical as if you were cooking a SV egg or salmon mi cuit. My set up will bounce around within a a 5% range (F), but that doesn't make any difference for this application. Come back 2 or 4 or even 8 hours later to some tasty vittles.

Today, I'm using it to make chicken stock, but I've also used it to make stews as well as red beans for red beans and rice.

Cheap and easy. Just the way I like it.

Edited by JanK, 10 January 2011 - 01:35 PM.

[blackp]

Soft air release in chamber vacuum machines would not have any effect on the end result. What it is used for is to protect delicate items from the instant ingress of normal atmosphere air after the set vacuum is reached. Soft air will let a bag collapse gently around what is inside before the full pressure of the outside air is let into the chamber. The pressure achieved is the same whether soft air is used or not. If chicken at 99% vacuum is not as good as chicken at 95% that will be the case irrespective of the use of soft air.

I agree with those who say that a chamber machine is not necessary for SV cookery, but I wouldn't want everyone to think that it is not a good thing to have.

If you want to get set up for SV from scratch at the cheapest way to do it well, get a Foodsaver, a Sous Vide Magic and a cheap rice cooker - job done!

If on the other hand you want to experiment with vacuum infusions and vacuum compression or if you plan to pack lots of liquid items, think about a small chamber machine.

I bought my vacuum machine (Henkelman Boxer 42) years before I'd heard about SV. I had used it primarily to facilitate the freezing of nearly everything from portions of meat, poultry and fish, and also single or dual serve pouches of soups and stews etc. The freezer life of almost anything packed this way is far longer than can be achieved with foodsaver type devices or in the case of soups etc. the freezer space saved compared to the use of tupperware (or similar) is substantial.

At the time I got my machine there were not many alternatives and with 20-20 hindsight I do not need such a large machine.

It is true that chamber machines use much cheaper bags than foodsaver type machines, but I'd need to live for 500 years to break even on that basis.

Now that there are smaller chamber machines available for <$1000 do not write them off if your budget allows.

Cheers,

Peter.

[Arpucci]

Dears, I am new guy here, but I would like to contribute with this topic...

First of all, if you are going to invest money to buy a vacuum chamber, you sould buy the best you can affort to... You will not use it for SV cooking only but also to preserve expensive products like proteins etc... With good vacuum level and good barrier pouchs, you can stock products for 2 years under freezer...

Tips to buy a good vacuum chamber:
1- Good and powerfull "vacuum pump" (Busch!!!)
2- Stainless Steel vacuum chamber big enough, with round corners (easy to clean!)
3- Double seal bar, easy to disasemble to change/clean (without tools!)
4- Vacuum level control, not timer!
5- Easy access to maintenance...( oil exchange every 100 hours)
6- Sof air release and shut off / emergency switch...

Best brands for small professional users:
C-70 www.multivac.com
Vacuboy www.vakuumverpacken.de
SV-31 www.orved.it

Edited by Arpucci, 11 January 2011 - 04:45 AM.

[Arpucci]

Doug, I do agree with you to use Ziploc bags, JUST if you are cooking SV soft proteins for imediate use at HOME...

I am not confident with barrier and thermal caracteristics of ordinary pouchs if you will cook tough proteins for long time...

[Arpucci]

Doug, you will not be able to "cold cook" some products without a chamber vacuum like: high chlorophyll green leafs, fruits like watermelons, peachs, strawberrys etc or making coullis on room temperature... You will need a "medium vacuum" level in order to do that...

Edited by Arpucci, 11 January 2011 - 05:44 AM.

[PedroG]

Hi Drago, welcome to eGullet! And thanks for the link, very interesting machine. Can you regulate the vacuum via the built-in external-vacuum-tube, as shown in my post on sealing liquids?

Regards
Pedro

I just tried bagging some water, and yes, your method works. Thanks for the tutorial. It is a bit tricky, as the tubing attachment must be lifted out from its holder to regulate the vacuum, but I am confident that with some practice one could get excellent results.

I have another idea concerning sous viding liquids - I wonder weather using a sealed and vacumed glass jar holding the liquid inside the cooker would work. The takaje valve would make this possible, and it would greatly simplify the sous viding of creme anglaise for instance, and the jar could be re used.

Also Pedro I have to thank you for suggesting a Weck canner for a possible vessel. Encouraged by you and Dougal's post about his experiences with his Lidl cooker
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=129877&view=findpost&p=1761768
I bought a Clatronic EKA 3338
http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/2136208_-eka-3338-clatronic.html
which seems to be the same model, I have been using it in the last few days paired with a SousVideMagic 1500D, and the setup shows lots of promise indeed. I shall report about it in more detail in the sous vide equipment topic.

Regards:

drago

Drago,
I continue the part of the discussion not concerning the Food Saver topic here in the main SV topic.

Of course you can use glass jars to heat liquids in a sous vide water-bath, this makes a high-precision bain-marie. For solid food it will work only if you cook the food in liquid, this makes presicion braising.

I am looking forward to your report on the Clatronic EKA 3338 canner.
When you try to find optimal PID-tuning values, you may consider the paragraph I contributed to Frank Hsu's PID Tuning Guide:

Perhaps the simplest way to qualify PID settings without a data-logger is with a digital thermometer (resolution at least 0.1°F, absolute accuracy is not crucial) with minimum-maximum memory and an ice brick ("blue ice") of about 400-500g frozen to -20°C. Start heating the bath at about 5-10°C below the set temperature and reset the thermometer’s memory. As soon as temperature has stabilized at set temperature, write down the maximum temperature (= initial overshoot) and the stabilized temperature. Reset the thermometer’s memory. After an hour or more, write down the minimum and maximum temperature (= oscillation or stability). Reset the thermometer’s memory. Drop an ice brick in the water and after another hour or more, write down the minimum emperature (= disturbance dip) and the maximum temperature (= post-disturbance overshoot), then reset the thermometer’s memory again and repeat stability measurement, as sometimes oscillation is initiated by disturbance. It would be interesting to determine also the duration of the disturbance dip, but this involves watching the display for maybe half an hour.

[coz]

I ordered a Henkelman Boxer 35 last night. I know it's a bit overkill but I'm excited for it. It has sensor and timing vacuum settings. It also has a temperature boil sensor that stops the unit if you reach the boiling point. I was going for the minipack model but I really wanted to try the soft air function of the Henkelman. I'll post my impressions of it next month when it arrives.

[paulpegg]

When you try to find optimal PID-tuning values, you may consider the paragraph I contributed to Frank Hsu's PID Tuning Guide:

Pedro,

Thank you for the link to the guide for tuning a PID. It is the first time I have seen such a lucid and comprehensive article on this subject. My big cooler has been working just fine but now I will fine tune it according to the article.

[Borgstrom]

I've had my Sous Vide Professional for about 3 months now, and have cooked a variety of dishes including beef, fish, seafood, chicken, turkey, pork, eggs, vegetables. Most are reasonably successful, some spectacularly so. But there is an issue with long-cooked beef which is bugging me.

So far I've made 4 beef dishes with cook times of 24-48 hours at 56-60C. Two were short ribs following the Momfuku recipe which includes a flavorful marinade in the bag. These turned out spectacularly well both times. The other two where boneless short ribs and bone-in chuck roast, each time seasoned with just salt & pepper before going into the bag. In both of these cases the smell of the juices/meat coming out the bag was...unappetizing to say the least. It didn't smell exactly spoiled or rotten; just off somehow. The meat came from different sources (Costco short ribs; grain-fed chuck roast from a local farm) and were prepared at different times. I confirmed bath temperature each time with a Thermapen. The prep conditions were sanitary and meat kept cold until entering bath and consumed within 30 minutes of leaving the bath. The bags hadn't puffed up or leaked. I ended up eating the meat in both cases and felt no ill effects. The meat itself tasted OK, especially after being torched & seasoned. The main issue really is just the smell of the meat when it comes out the bag.

Has anyone else experienced this kind of bag odor with non-marinated beef? Are marinades for SV beef important to have a more appetizing aroma? Could this smell really be some sort of spoilage and I'm just lucky I didn't get sick?

(The only other SV dish I've made with cooking time over 4 hours was turkey leg confit, which was salted for some time before being bagged, and then bagged with an herb sachet. I didn't notice any off odors or flavors -- it was actually quite good.)

[Arpucci]

I am concerning about SV cooking using Ziploc or Foodsaver pouches...

Who know how about the composition of this pouches?

Usually plastic pouches for cook-in are made from different products with different thermal and mechanical characteristics’:

PA/PE 20/70 - 90um (max +70C/158F)
PA/PE 20/80 - 100um (max +70C/158F)
PA/PE 25/115 - 140um (max +70C/158F)
OPA/PP 15/65 - 80um (max +115C/239F)

I would recommend do not cook with regular plastic pouches over +70C/158F...

Many vegetables has to being cooked over +85C/ 185F, so being careful!

[Chris Amirault]

One of the key aspects of the Society's Year of Modernist Cuisine is you. As we seek to connect professionals and passionate amateurs to cutting edge discussions about food and drink here in eG Forums, topics like this (and the previous SV topic) bring both newcomers and veterans together to share queries and ideas, flops and smashes, in a pursuit of greater understanding of methods that have only recently arrived in home kitchens.

There is a new tool available to help out the newcomers: the index to the original sous vide topic, where you can find loads of information about methods, equipment, food safety, and much more. But, as you can see in this topic, this discussion is far from over! In particular, we hope that all participating members will continue to explain and illustrate their experiments, so that everyone can continue to engage and learn.

To that end, I wanted to walk step-by-step through my recent preparation of a SV favorite, boneless short ribs. The basics, which you can find in this index post, are these: 60C for 48h in my Sous Vide Supreme, then dried and seared quickly in grapeseed oil in a blisteringly hot cast iron pan and sliced for service.

The meat was served with truffled mashed potatoes (using the retrograde starch method described here) and a porcini mushroom sauce using the juice from the bag and the mushroom soaking liquid reduced and then mounted with butter.

The plating was pretty, trust me, and it tasted great. But that's not what I'm after here. Instead, I thought I'd share the preparations I went through to make this dish -- old hat for the vets but, I hope, useful for those new to this style of cooking.

More, with photos, in a sec.

[Chris Amirault]

One of the real advantages of SV/LTLT cooking is that very small amounts of quality ingredients can transform your dish. I've been using a lot of rubs and marinades to get a sense of what works and what doesn't. Here was the prep for the short rib rub:



A few smoked Tellicherry peppercorns, some kosher salt, and a small handful of dried porcini mushrooms. I ground them to a powder to insure that they'd distribute evenly as the meat cooked:



I then added a very small amount of sherry vinegar just to moisten the rub with a bit of acid:



I then prepped the short ribs. As with many meat preparations, it's important to trim off the extra fat from the meat as it won't render at this low temperature the way it would in, say, beef stew cooked at 325F. Fat, whole sections of short ribs, and small pieces left to right:



Honestly, I use to toss fat like that, but now I keep it for use in another state (see below). I then made a bag with my FoodSaver, folded over the rim (to keep it from getting wet or smeared with the rub), and put the meat inside. I then scooped up that wet rub and, well, rubbed it all over the meat:



Finally, I melted a tablespoon or so of rendered beef fat in a Pyrex bowl in the microwave, as I've found that the meat seems more, well, beefy as a result:



Sealed the package carefully (and took a blurry shot):



And into the SVS it went. Results, as I said, were excellent.

[therippa]

The meat was served with truffled mashed potatoes (using the retrograde starch method described here) and a porcini mushroom sauce using the juice from the bag and the mushroom soaking liquid reduced and then mounted with butter.

I made retrograde mashed potatoes over the weekend (using yukon gold) and had two problems...

1. Cooking them the second time at 180 took FOREVER for them to get even close to the texture I'd normally pull them out at (I usually pull them out when a piece can be easily crushed using a pair of tongs). I put them through a ricer, but there was still a lot of graininess to them. Since we set the starches first, is it ok to cook them at a more aggressive simmer?

2. I almost feel like even if they weren't as grainy, the texture wouldn't have been much better than if I just did them the way I usually do, which requires a lot less work and time

Steps I took
sealed potato slices in bag, sous vide at 160 for 30 minutes
rapidly cooled in sink, stuck in the fridge for an hour or so while I prepped the rest of dinner
removed from bag, simmered in salted water at 180 for about 45-50 minutes (method detailed in Potato eGC said it should take 30 minutes, they could have cooked longer, paring knife was just able to pierce and slide out easily)
put them through a ricer, added butter, mixed, added milk

Am I missing something here?

[Chris Amirault]

That's exactly what happened to me the first time I tried and failed at this. Yes, the key is cooking them at a boil, not a simmer, the second time. They're much more hardy than ones that haven't gotten the retrograde treatment.

And you really can beat them up when they're cooked.

[stomsf]

That's exactly what happened to me the first time I tried and failed at this. Yes, the key is cooking them at a boil, not a simmer, the second time. They're much more hardy than ones that haven't gotten the retrograde treatment.

And you really can beat them up when they're cooked.

THANK YOU!

I was convinced I did something wrong -- after the first time I made the retrograde starch I thought this was just OK -- the next two times were disasters and I thought I must have been totally screwing it up.

So my next try will be to just boil the heck out of the slices until they're at the texture I'm used to cooking them when not retrograding. Thanks!!

[PedroG]

When you try to find optimal PID-tuning values, you may consider the paragraph I contributed to Frank Hsu's PID Tuning Guide:

Pedro,

Thank you for the link to the guide for tuning a PID. It is the first time I have seen such a lucid and comprehensive article on this subject. My big cooler has been working just fine but now I will fine tune it according to the article.

Hi Paul,

Thank you for the flowers, which I pass on to the main author Frank Hsu and the other co-authors Robert Jueneman and Peter Black.

The authors might eventually work on an updated version of the PID tuning guide. If anyone has any suggestions, please PM me.


BTW: is your big cooler really 75 liters?

Regards
Pedro

[paulpegg]

[


BTW: is your big cooler really 75 liters?

Regards
Pedro

No, I filled it two days ago and it holds 55 liters. The 1000 Watt heater kicks it up about 1C every two minutes.

I just did a 48 hr Momofuku Short Ribs preparation and they came out FANTASTIC! I used your method of sealing wet stuff in a Foodsaver, double sealed the bags and then double bagged them. There was a little air in the interior bags so I weighed the outside bags down with some glass beads (I am a stained glass artist from 30 years ago). 48 hrs at 60C and they came out perfect. The bags did not float and the outer bags did not leak, nor did the inner bags. My guests just left muttering that they have to learn about sous vide!

Thanks for all that you do.

Paul

[e_monster]

...
So far I've made 4 beef dishes with cook times of 24-48 hours at 56-60C. Two were short ribs following the Momfuku recipe which includes a flavorful marinade in the bag. These turned out spectacularly well both times. The other two where boneless short ribs and bone-in chuck roast, each time seasoned with just salt & pepper before going into the bag. In both of these cases the smell of the juices/meat coming out the bag was...unappetizing to say the least. It didn't smell exactly spoiled or rotten; just off somehow. The meat came from different sources (Costco short ribs; grain-fed chuck roast from a local farm) and were prepared at different times. I confirmed bath temperature each time with a Thermapen. The prep conditions were sanitary and meat kept cold until entering bath and consumed within 30 minutes of leaving the bath. The bags hadn't puffed up or leaked. I ended up eating the meat in both cases and felt no ill effects. The meat itself tasted OK, especially after being torched & seasoned. The main issue really is just the smell of the meat when it comes out the bag.

Has anyone else experienced this kind of bag odor with non-marinated beef? Are marinades for SV beef important to have a more appetizing aroma? Could this smell really be some sort of spoilage and I'm just lucky I didn't get sick?

.....

I have never experienced this and have done a lot of 48 to 72 hour cooks at 132F -- however -- a few people have mentioned it in the past. I don't know if the culprit was definitively identified by I seem to recall that there is a non-toxic organism that can produce this sort of off-taste -- and even if it is killed by cooking eventually, it may thrive as the meat gets up to pasteurization temp.

It could be that the place where they butcher the meat has that organism (was it a malo-lactic sort of bacteria?) Or, it could be on your cutting board. If it happens with meat from multiple purveyors, it is probably in your kitchen.

In any case, you can take care of it by either dunking the bag briefly in boiling water OR pre-searing the meat to sterilize the outside.

Do a search for 'lactic' in the old Sous-Vide thread and you will find out more about this. Perhaps it is covered in the index.

[therippa]

Holy crap - http://makeprojects....on-Cooker/471/1

I'm ordering the parts and building this!

[paulpegg]

Holy crap - http://makeprojects....on-Cooker/471/1

I'm ordering the parts and building this!

Take a look at my version of this approach. I didn't care for having all the electronics in a plexiglas box directly over the water bath and wanted to be able to plug in different size heaters and multiple circulators. I spent a few bucks more since the heater is larger and I bought the PID from Canada with relatively high shipping costs. There is also no soldering to be done in my approach. I can have the control box on a counter and the water bath on the floor or in a large sink. I usually put the stock pot in a large sink in the basement and the cooler on the floor. This doesn't need to be in the kitchen at all.

[Borgstrom]

...
Has anyone else experienced this kind of bag odor with non-marinated beef? Are marinades for SV beef important to have a more appetizing aroma? Could this smell really be some sort of spoilage and I'm just lucky I didn't get sick?

...
Do a search for 'lactic' in the old Sous-Vide thread and you will find out more about this. Perhaps it is covered in the index.

Thanks for the pointer! I actually had read all of the old thread's posts many months ago when first getting into sous vide but didn't recall that topic until you reminded me. The smell could indeed be coming from surface bacteria reproducing as the meat warms from refrigerator temp to bath temp. The next time I do long-cooked beef I'll dunk the bag briefly into boiling water before going into the bath and see if that helps.

Edited by Borgstrom, 14 January 2011 - 08:41 AM.

[PedroG]

Holy crap - http://makeprojects....on-Cooker/471/1

I'm ordering the parts and building this!

Take a look at my version of this approach. I didn't care for having all the electronics in a plexiglas box directly over the water bath and wanted to be able to plug in different size heaters and multiple circulators. I spent a few bucks more since the heater is larger and I bought the PID from Canada with relatively high shipping costs. There is also no soldering to be done in my approach. I can have the control box on a counter and the water bath on the floor or in a large sink. I usually put the stock pot in a large sink in the basement and the cooler on the floor. This doesn't need to be in the kitchen at all.

I prefer Paul's approach. The Marshalltown 742G Bucket Water Heater plus the cables of the pump and the temperature probe are less bulky on the water surface of the container, allowing to use a cover with only a small notch to prevent evaporation (which is important in LTLT cooking), and the electronics are away from the moisture in the bath.
If the aquarium pump should quit service when you cook at 60°C or above, you might consider a heat tolerating pump, see my post in the old SV topic (it's 6V, so you need a power adaptor). And as Paul stated, you are more flexible with the PID-controller in a separate box. As for the temperature probe, I should recommend one with a long mantle tube, so the junction with the cable does not have to be submersed.

[HowardLi]

Regarding custards, is it:

a) possible to cook them via sous vide method
b) safe to do so

Custards are not too difficult by conventional means, but assuming the oven or range elements are all tied up, can it be done? If it were, I suspect it wouldn't be sous vide so much as simply heating in a controlled water bath, since the custards cannot be sealed.

[Chris Amirault]

Absolutely! If you go to this Eggs & Dairy post in the SV Index, you'll see several links, including one to my adventures with an ice cream base here (fail) and here (success) for a Paula Wolfert recipe.

[Chris Amirault]

Checking out the bacon post in Nick Reynold's great foodblog, I realized that I've been using SV to finish bacon after smoking: just pop it in a bag and heat through to 65C, then ice it down and put it in the fridge for later slicing -- or freeze it as one piece.

[therippa]

Holy crap - http://makeprojects....on-Cooker/471/1

I'm ordering the parts and building this!

Take a look at my version of this approach. I didn't care for having all the electronics in a plexiglas box directly over the water bath and wanted to be able to plug in different size heaters and multiple circulators. I spent a few bucks more since the heater is larger and I bought the PID from Canada with relatively high shipping costs. There is also no soldering to be done in my approach. I can have the control box on a counter and the water bath on the floor or in a large sink. I usually put the stock pot in a large sink in the basement and the cooler on the floor. This doesn't need to be in the kitchen at all.

I prefer Paul's approach. The Marshalltown 742G Bucket Water Heater plus the cables of the pump and the temperature probe are less bulky on the water surface of the container, allowing to use a cover with only a small notch to prevent evaporation (which is important in LTLT cooking), and the electronics are away from the moisture in the bath.
If the aquarium pump should quit service when you cook at 60°C or above, you might consider a heat tolerating pump, see my post in the old SV topic (it's 6V, so you need a power adaptor). And as Paul stated, you are more flexible with the PID-controller in a separate box. As for the temperature probe, I should recommend one with a long mantle tube, so the junction with the cable does not have to be submersed.

The thing though is I already have the Auber PID/rice cooker setup. I'm looking for something more compact and love projects like these...also I love that it doesn't cost $800 like the Sous Vide Professional

[poh]

As my first post on this site I'd like to say thank you for all the useful advice posted in this thread. I have read quite a bit about it while deciding what to buy. I've decided to get into sous vide as I love to cook, and I already had half the equipment - a chamber vacuum.

With that said, any idea why the warranty on the sousvide professional is only 1 year? This is the only reason I didn't get it straight away - I ordered a sousvide supreme demi. I figure if I love the method and run out of space in the SVSD I can always order or build an immersion circulator later and have two water baths. (Good idea? Bad idea? Useful at all? I have 30 days to return the demi...)

[JBailey]

POH

I also began with a chamber vacuum before I purchased a Sous Vide Supreme a bit over a year ago when they came to market. I imagine their warranty is like so many companies in that they pick a sufficient time to cover the machine during the period when most issues arise. More important than the warranty written on a piece of paper is how the customer service approaches problems and issues. From what I have read here, their customer service department seems to be most helpful and quick to send new machines if a problem is discovered. My SVS has worked perfectly from day one so I have not had to call the company.

Personally, I would not trade my SVS for anything. It has worked well, exceeded my expectations and continues to be a part of my weekly cooking. Subsequently, I did buy a second machine which is a Sous Vide Professional from Polyscience. The advantage in having two whether it be two Demis, a Demi and a Sous Vide Supreme or a Demi and a SVP is that you can do foods at two different temperatures. For example, you can do proteins at 135F in one and a vegetable at 185F in the other so each can be finished and on the table together for your meal. You will be able to add a second Demi and probably be under the cost of buying the SVP. Also having two machines allows you to scale up when doing more items for a dinner.

Keep the Demi, you will find it spends more time on your counter, plugged in and working than many of your other kitchen appliances!

[poh]

Thanks for the response! Glad to hear from someone who has both a SVS and a SVP that both can be useful. Vegetables and protein separately was what I had in mind with two systems.

My concerns on the warranty were regarding the professional. Immersion circulators seem more delicate to me than a SVS. (Maybe this is incorrect?) I was hesitant to spend $800 on the SVP with only a 1 year warranty, but not with the SVSD which also only has a 1 year warranty. Maybe illogical on my part. :)

[ScottyBoy]

My regular salad is what I am currently growing so right now a lot of winter veg. I pack them all with a little butter, salt and with the carrots a pinch of sugar. All at 180F Cauliflower 8 minutes, sliced purple carrots 12 minutes, toybox carrots 15 minutes and baby parsnips for 18. Dressed with preserved meyer lemon, honey mustard and champange vinegar dressing. I've dried out the bull's blood beets amd ground it into a powder. In a seperate bed I plant sprouts of all the things I am currently growing.

In this application SV works so well at preserving the flavor of each, not to boil in a large pot of water. The bright dressing just gives the right amount of zing and the beet dust brings that earthy flavor.