1176 replies to this topic

[e_monster]

A few days ago I cooked a rolled prime rib of beef for 24 hours at 55C. Seared with a blow torch first. Then cut down the middle and then the two steaks were seared in a hot griddle afterwards. This was inspired by Heston Blumenthal's perfect steak. I chose to do it at 55C after reading so much about potential bacteria growth etc. The meat was a perfect medium-rare. However next time, I will do it at the same temperature as Heston which is 50C. The flavour and texture was really nice. I finished it off with some melted smoked butter, and sprinkle of smoked salt.

Perhaps I am over-cautious but I would be wary. Blumenthal's method relies on your having killed off all exterior pathogens in an initial pre-cook torching AND on the interior being intact muscle meat. The inside of a rolled roast is not intact interior muscle meat and I would be concerned that it would be in the danger zone far too long to be safe.

I wonder how safe Blumenthal's method is for sous-vide where the meat would basically be incubating for 24 hours. If you fail in the pre-cook sear to kill all the pathogens, then the meat will be bathing in them (unlike when cooking in an oven in air where any failure will remain isolated.

[Guy MovingOn]

--- snip --- snip --- snip ---

A few days ago I cooked a rolled prime rib of beef for 24 hours at 55C. Seared with a blow torch first. Then cut down the middle and then the two steaks were seared in a hot griddle afterwards. This was inspired by Heston Blumenthal's perfect steak. I chose to do it at 55C after reading so much about potential bacteria growth etc. The meat was a perfect medium-rare. However next time, I will do it at the same temperature as Heston which is 50C. The flavour and texture was really nice. I finished it off with some melted smoked butter, and sprinkle of smoked salt.
Comment by PedroG: 24h / 50°C is definitely dangerous. You might try 53°C if you can keep your bath stable at 53°C ± 0.1°C controlled by a NIST- or ISO-calibrated high precision thermometer. With an unstirred bath and without a calibrated reference thermometer you should rather stay at 55°C.

Your bags seem to float horizontally, which makes temperature uniformity and heat transmission in an unstirred bath even worse. You might try to suspend your bags on a skewer (see http://forums.egulle...ost__p__1699134 ) and eventually clamp a table cloth weight (this idea is from Bob Jueneman) to the bottom rim of the bag:

Covering the bath with ping-pong-balls reduces heat loss and water evaporation, and a simple indoor fountain pump (mine supported 59°C without problem) may substantially enhance water circulation and temperature uniformity, see http://forums.egulle...ost__p__1729644

Thank you for your advice and suggestions. The bath is unstirred but has heating elements on three sides and the bottom, and is double insulated (two layers . It also has a lid (which I didnt photograph) which fits nicely on top and prevents much of the temperature fluctuation. The bath is pretty good at holding a steady temperature (albeit according to its thermometer in unstirred water, but apparently the design of the heaters is such that it promotes convection currents).

To quote it's manual "The Tank of the bath is made of seamless corrosion resistant stainless steel for a longer life time and easy cleaning. By means of the smooth surfaces of the tank, the risk of contamination is minimised. The sheet heaters are placed on 3 sides outside of the tank, the use of a PID control system and triple insulation consisting of glasswool, an aluminum layer layer and an air gap, gives this water bath an excellent temperature uniformity and stability."
It is also stated to have:
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Tank Volume, liters 9.5

Useful Volume, liters 7

Temperature Range Ambient Temperature +5ºC / 99.9ºC

Temperature Sensor Fe-Const

Control System Programmable PID Microprocessor

Temperature Set and Display Sensitivity 0.1 ºC

Temperature Uniformity <40ºC ±0.2ºC

Temperature Stability ±0.1ºC

Timer 99.9 hours + Hold position

Delayed Start Timer 1 min. to 99.9 hours

Internal Material 304 Stainless Steel

External Material Epoxy-Polyester Powder Coated Steel

Power Supply 230V, 50/60 Hz

Power Consumption 800 W

Internal Dimensions (WxDXH) mm 240x300x150

ALTHOUGH IT ONLY ALLOWS ME TO COOK UP TO 80C!


I agree with the floating issue, however that photo was of the beef, which wasnt actually floating, its just horizontal coz thats the only way it would fit in. The bath is more shallow than I would like. As I am currently using ziploc bags, i do try immersing them in cold water first to help get rid of the air inside and then sealing, but there is still always some. I have tried a skewer through the top above the seal to keep them vertical, which does help.


I was quite annoyed that there was a really cheap chamber vacuum machine for sale on ebay today, but I missed it due to my gf hassling me!!! So I have been considering getting this Food Saver. What are your thoughts please?
Food Saver V2860

Once again I really appreciate your feedback!

Edited by Guy MovingOn, 23 February 2010 - 09:47 PM.

[Guy MovingOn]

Hey e_monster, thanks for your reply! Having read 110 pages of this thread, I have already realised what a friendly and helpful person you are! I guess you are right about the intact muscle thing... to be honest a rolled rib roast is quite a pain in the **** to sous vide since it doesnt really hold its shape well, so I had to wrap it in cling film first. Then after, it will still kinda unravel, which isn't particularly attractive. I would like to try a fore rib of beef, on the bone, as Heston does.
I really think the texture would be so much better at 50C.

I really wanted to try sous vide at this temperature for maximum flavour and juiciness, but if indeed 50C is not safe in sous vide, is it actually safer in an oven? If so, how about putting the beef in one of those roasting bags, to help prevent it from drying out?

Thanks for the help!

[blackp]

I can't see exactly what you are trying to achieve.

It is easily possible to keep well within the food safety guidelines AND have excellent Sous Vide results.

The rough rule of thumb I use is for tender meats cook at the temp which gives you the level of doneness you like. For me this is 53C (127F) which gives rare-to-medium-rare on my scale.

For any SV cookery times should be kept to below 4 hours where temps are below 54.5C (130F). This is not a problem as already tender steak is fantastic with only an hour or 2 at the doneness temp you select.

For tough meats on the other hand - pick any temperature you like and so long as it is 54.5C (130F) or over cook for as long as you like.

I really like the meat on beef short ribs and generally cook them at 56C (133F) for 48 hours. The meat is still pink, juicy and flavourful - but most of all tender and succulent like rib-eye.

Cheers,

Peter.

[e_monster]

Heston Blumenthal's "perfect steak" recipe (which I have wanted to do) is a non-sous-vide technique where you torch the a prime rib briefly (just enough to sterilize it AND start a little browning) then cook it for 22 hours in an oven at a very low temp so that the inner temp only gets to 122F. The reason for doing this is -- as I understand it -- that there are particular enzymes that breakdown the meat in a very particular way and that these enzymes are denatured at temps around 120F. Since Blumenthal knows his stuff and swears by this method, I would have to guess that the result are scrumptious. Here, the slow cooking isn't to render tough meat tender but to get a particular kind of tenderness and maximum juiciness.

I contemplated doing a sous-vide approximation until I read an interview with Harold McGee where he mentioned that he was blown away by how the browning that started with minimal torching developed even when cooking was done well below temps at which you would expect any such development to occur.

I have read quite a few blogs where people executed the recipe and universally people rave about it -- and since they all rave about how juicy the result is -- I don't think you need to put the meat in a roasting bag. That might even have a negative impact on the texture of the outer layer. A little bit of surface evaporation is going to help the crust development and browning in the final stage. In the same way that beef benefits from a bit of dry aging.

Anyway, that's my take.

[Guy MovingOn]

The thing is, I'm quite sure that in the recipe he slices off the browned outer layer after the 24 hours in the oven. He then portions them into steaks, and pan fries them (for quite a long time according to his tv show In Search of Perfection - 2 mins each side I seem to recall), which would develop the crust.

Also that I read somewhere in the thread that actually above 47 or 49C all bacteria apart from one strand will be destroyed, and only that strand has only been seen to survive in a laboratory due to the "Phoenix Phenomenom". I think that is what Douglas Baldwin mentioned. Therefore I would have thought that if you can accurately get 50C, or maybe 51-52C for a margin of error, then you would be ok.

[Guy MovingOn]

When I was in the supermarket the other day I also bought a whole guinea fowl, and some quite small joints of smoked gammon.

Could anyone recommend some lovely recipes for either of these, and whether the gammon should be brined first, or that would ruin its smoked flavour?

Also, as vacuum sealer recommendations go, how is the Foodsaver V2860?

Many thanks!

[blackp]

OK - I get it!

First rule: Before expressing an opinion one should consult ones available references: page 168 of Heston's "In Search of Perfection" explains the goal admirably.

After reading the recipe I'm more worried about my ability to actually perform the task than any food safety issues which may be involved.

Most ovens found in a domestic situation may not even be able to hold 50C let alone be able to actually do it within 5C (given no PID control most domestic ovens have a wide oscillation around the set point).

My oven will hold 55C within 5C and I consider that pretty good for a semi-professional oven.

Maybe with a Rational oven or similar this recipe could be done with some precision, but for the home chef Sous Vide is an economical way to get to the intent of some of the master chefs without massive investment.

I can't help thinking (no proof of course) that SV steak then pan fried or quickly roasted very hot would not be equal to Heston's recipe. Because I do not have an oven which will hold a constant 50C - I'll never know.

Cheers,

Peter.

[Guy MovingOn]

I don't have the book yet, but according to the TV show upon which the book is based, if your oven doesn't go as low as 50C, you can set your oven to the lowest temperature, and wedge it open with a wooden spoon. Also, I think that the purpose of the series was to create perfect recipes which can be replicated at home. I don't think Heston would expect his entire audience to have professional PID controlled ovens, so perhaps the end result would still be lovely at 50C for 24 hours according to a home oven... ?

[dougal]

... if your oven doesn't go as low as 50C, you can set your oven to the lowest temperature, and wedge it open with a wooden spoon. ...

YMMV.
Different ovens react differently!
Most thermostatically controlled electric ovens will try and reach that set temperature and will use as much power as required to reach that temperature. Much of the oven might get quite hot, and use a lot of power trying to heat the entire room to the set temperature.
However, a gas oven that just uses different flame settings will indeed be a bit cooler if you crack the door open.

Test your own oven first!

[Guy MovingOn]

I'm currently watching Heston Blumenthal's Feast videos.

On recreating a Roman feast, he vacuum packs a whole pig, and cooks it in a hot tub/jacuzzi at 60C for 24 hours.



You will need to skip about 25 mins in. :)

[DouglasBaldwin]

Welcome Guy MovingOn,

e_monster is absolutely right: Heston's team assumed that the interior of the intact muscle is essential sterile and that searing the outside is sufficient to make it safe. (The big problem now, is that many processors are mechanically tenderizing their primal beef cuts and are not currently required by the government to label them as such. This is a big problem that a lot of people in the food safety community are angry about. Several people have already gotten sick from eating steaks that they grilled because they didn't know the steaks had been mechanically tenderized. So unless you know your meat hasn't been mechanically tenderized, you should assume it has and pasteurize it.)

As to why Heston is holding the meat at 50C/122F for 24 hours, let me quote an email I sent to PedroG almost a year ago:

Now, for your more interesting question about rapid aging (also known as conditioning). First, I would only recommend rapidly aging beef: the taste of pork and lamb is (typically) not improved with aging; the interior of poultry is usually not assumed to be sterile; and, the food pathogens associated with fish multiply very rapidly at room temperature. How much benefit is there to aging beef at (warm) room temperature? Well, according to Lawrie's Meat Science (p. 239--240), meat held at 43C/109F or 49C/120F for 24 hours had a greater increase in tenderness than meat kept for 14 days at 2C/36F; he notes, however, that while the tenderness increase was particularly high at 49C/120F, it had a somewhat undesirable flavor. The problem, however, is that these temperatures are well within the real danger zone of -1.6C/29.3F to 52.3C/127.5F --- in the experiment at 43C/109F, they actually sterilized the meat with ionizing radiation before rapidly aging. In theory, however, these microorganisms are only on the surface of the intact meat and rapid aging should be safe so long as we prevent the surface microorganisms from multiplying to dangerous levels. The two easiest ways of doing this are with heat and acid; either vacuum seal the meat and plunge the bag into a large pot of rapidly boiling water for 1--2 minutes or use a marinade with a pH significantly less than 4.1 (since the pH growth range for Salmonella spp. is 4.1--9.0). For extra safety, I would recommend aging at 50C/122F since all but C. perfringens stops growing by 50C/122F (and this is only because of the Phoenix phenomenon which (to the best of my knowledge) has only been observed in the laboratory).

[therippa]

I'm currently watching Heston Blumenthal's Feast videos.

On recreating a Roman feast, he vacuum packs a whole pig, and cooks it in a hot tub/jacuzzi at 60C for 24 hours.

You will need to skip about 25 mins in. :)

Here's the sous vide segment for those living outside of England (the content is blocked on youtube)

trojan hog

Pretty insane. The best part is when he serves it with the sausage at the end.

[e_monster]

....
snip snip

The two easiest ways of doing this are with heat and acid; either vacuum seal the meat and plunge the bag into a large pot of rapidly boiling water for 1--2 minutes or use a marinade with a pH significantly less than 4.1 (since the pH growth range for Salmonella spp. is 4.1--9.0). For extra safety, I would recommend aging at 50C/122F since all but C. perfringens stops growing by 50C/122F (and this is only because of the Phoenix phenomenon which (to the best of my knowledge) has only been observed in the laboratory).

Doug, I am not confident that a low PH marinade is sufficient to handle E Coli which is the pathogen of greatest concern (I think?) when dealing with beef. I read a study (wish I had kept a reference) a few months back when I was researching claims about white vinegar being a good kitchen disinfectant. I found a study (from someone at an agriculture college in the South) in which they found that spraying cutting boards and sinks with vinegar was quite effective in disinfecting salmonella but was quite ineffective in disinfecting e coli.

Anyway, you might want to look into this.

[DouglasBaldwin]

That's interesting, I'll look into it and get back to you.

I've never tried rapid aging, but I believe PedroG does it frequently. (My beef is dry-aged 28 days, so it doesn't need additional aging.) A low pH marinade just needs to keep any surface pathogens from multiplying---cooking and searing the beef will destroy them later. E. coli stops growing at a pH of 4.0 and I don't know of any food pathogens that can grow at a pH less than that. Some spoilage and beneficial microorganisms can grow at much lower pHs though---such as lactic acid bacteria and some yeasts and molds.

[pH isn't the whole story though: weak acids and strong acids affect pathogens in different ways. Weak acids are able to go through the cell membranes of the pathogens and lower its cytoplasmic pH; strong acids can't go through the cell membranes and mainly work by stopping the enzymes on cell's surface. As always, food science is never as simple as it seems.]

[Guy MovingOn]

Welcome Guy MovingOn,

e_monster is absolutely right: Heston's team assumed that the interior of the intact muscle is essential sterile and that searing the outside is sufficient to make it safe. (The big problem now, is that many processors are mechanically tenderizing their primal beef cuts and are not currently required by the government to label them as such. This is a big problem that a lot of people in the food safety community are angry about. Several people have already gotten sick from eating steaks that they grilled because they didn't know the steaks had been mechanically tenderized. So unless you know your meat hasn't been mechanically tenderized, you should assume it has and pasteurize it.)

As to why Heston is holding the meat at 50C/122F for 24 hours, let me quote an email I sent to PedroG almost a year ago:

Now, for your more interesting question about rapid aging (also known as conditioning). First, I would only recommend rapidly aging beef: the taste of pork and lamb is (typically) not improved with aging; the interior of poultry is usually not assumed to be sterile; and, the food pathogens associated with fish multiply very rapidly at room temperature. How much benefit is there to aging beef at (warm) room temperature? Well, according to Lawrie's Meat Science (p. 239--240), meat held at 43C/109F or 49C/120F for 24 hours had a greater increase in tenderness than meat kept for 14 days at 2C/36F; he notes, however, that while the tenderness increase was particularly high at 49C/120F, it had a somewhat undesirable flavor. The problem, however, is that these temperatures are well within the real danger zone of -1.6C/29.3F to 52.3C/127.5F --- in the experiment at 43C/109F, they actually sterilized the meat with ionizing radiation before rapidly aging. In theory, however, these microorganisms are only on the surface of the intact meat and rapid aging should be safe so long as we prevent the surface microorganisms from multiplying to dangerous levels. The two easiest ways of doing this are with heat and acid; either vacuum seal the meat and plunge the bag into a large pot of rapidly boiling water for 1--2 minutes or use a marinade with a pH significantly less than 4.1 (since the pH growth range for Salmonella spp. is 4.1--9.0). For extra safety, I would recommend aging at 50C/122F since all but C. perfringens stops growing by 50C/122F (and this is only because of the Phoenix phenomenon which (to the best of my knowledge) has only been observed in the laboratory).

Thank you for the warm welcome and great insight, it feels like an honour to have people such as yourself, e_monster, PedroG, et al. to reply and assist me after having read your fabulous contributions over the past 5-6 weeks. I have also used your guide as a starting point for some of my recipes too :)

Thank you for explaining the rapid aging to me. Unfortunately at that time, it was just a piece of supermarket meat that I cooked for 24 hours at 55C as an experiment on the taste and texture. To be honest, it tasted like very nice roast beef. Next time I will be sure to purchase higher quality and intact beef, marinade in low pH, and then surface sear :)


Unfortunately I didn't get any feedback regarding the Foodsaver V2860, but I'm finding ziploc bags to be a bit annoying, so I'm just gonna take the plunge and buy the foodsaver. Will report back after having tried it!

[Guy MovingOn]

I'm sorry for the constant questions, especially about vacuum sealers, but I would really like to know which is better:

La.va V.333

or

Foodsaver V2860

I've seen them both available for purchase on eBay, but the Lava V333 retails for nearly £600! Which is a lot lot lot more than the Foodsaver! Is it really that much better??

Edited by Guy MovingOn, 25 February 2010 - 05:28 AM.

[mtigges]

I had a food saver for many many years (around 20). But that's not the norm. There's a thread in the kitchen equipment forum about unreliability. Judging by the price, I sincerely hope the lava is superior. But, if you're in North America, check this out. I got one last August and it's flipping fantastic. Miles and miles superior to my old Food saver (though I imagine they've improved greatly since my 80's model).

[therippa]

Behold, 72-hour short ribs (135f)

[e_monster]

I had a food saver for many many years (around 20). But that's not the norm. There's a thread in the kitchen equipment forum about unreliability. Judging by the price, I sincerely hope the lava is superior. But, if you're in North America, check this out. I got one last August and it's flipping fantastic. Miles and miles superior to my old Food saver (though I imagine they've improved greatly since my 80's model).

I have been using FoodSavers for something like 15 years. I had one break after 5 years. And another lasted another 5. In both cases, I felt that I got my moneysworth out of them. About 18 months ago I bought a new FoodSaver even though my old one (5 years old) still worked because I wanted the Pulse Vac feature.

I am really glad that I got one with the Pulse option. It is great for vacuuming bags with liquid in them.

[dougal]

I'm sorry for the constant questions, especially about vacuum sealers, but I would really like to know which is better:
La.va V.333
or
Foodsaver V2860
I've seen them both available for purchase on eBay, but the Lava V333 retails for nearly £600! Which is a lot lot lot more than the Foodsaver! Is it really that much better??

For domestic use that Foodsaver should be fine.
However, it probably won't resist abuse in the same way that a commercial machine might.

Certainly, I am still delighted with my V2860, which I picked up for close to £100.

Put the machine a few inches above your bench - so the bags 'stand up' a bit - to make it easier to seal liquids without sucking them up.
But the ability to pulse pump, and on slow speed, plus the long-duration 'moist' seal setting, makes it well able to handle stuff-in-sauce.

Yes, I am gentle with it, but its given no hint of any trouble.

If I have any criticism, its that a full 2 inches of bag need to go into the machine when sealing. It seems a lot. But that does guarantee a space to write the content info ...


Foodsaver-branded bags are claimed to be food-safe to boiling, but the seals won't hold at that temperature! I've had a couple leak while trying to quickly reheat stuff in a pan of boiling water. But it has been the factory (side) seals that went - not those made by the V2860!

[gfweb]

Re the Food Saver...I have one and it is fairly expensive to operate given that the bag rolls aint cheap. For food storage long term it might be worth it, but for 60 min in a water bath it is hard to see how one loses anything with a zip lock bag.

There is a middle ground. Reynolds makes a cheap hand pump that evacuates special bags through a port and claims to be as good as a food saver. I have one and it seems to work fine. Though I still wonder if a Glad bag isn't about 99% as good.

Food saver will have trouble with sauces/marinades that you plan to cook with the meat. It will suck them out with the air unless it is a chamber model.

Edited by gfweb, 25 February 2010 - 12:37 PM.

[therippa]

I impulsed purchased a foodsaver V3825 at costco last week to replace the reynolds hand pump system I was using. To be honest, I feel like I got a better vacuum with the reynolds. Costco has a pretty awesome return policy, so I'm going to use it a couple more times and make the decision whether or not to keep it.

[PedroG]

I'm sorry for the constant questions, especially about vacuum sealers, but I would really like to know which is better:

La.va V.333

or

Foodsaver V2860

I've seen them both available for purchase on eBay, but the Lava V333 retails for nearly £600! Which is a lot lot lot more than the Foodsaver! Is it really that much better??

Lava V333 is overkill, V100 http://lava-vacuum-p...ng.com/V100.htm is sufficient, as well as FoodSaver™ V2040 http://www.foodsaver...ls.aspx?pid=121 . You do not need high vacuum, but an instant-seal-button is recommendable. MagicVac Elite will do as well, mine is more than 10 years old and still working.
Regards
Pedro

[millions]

I just received a lobe of grade "A" foie gras from Sonoma, and would like prepare some of it en sous vide. For tonight, I want to do seared medallions. Any suggestions for temperature and time for 1/2 inch thick slices? It seems to me that if the point of cooking the foie sous vide is to minimize weight loss, after removal from the bath, I won't want to pan sear. Has anyone here used a torch on foie?

Edited by millions, 25 February 2010 - 01:42 PM.

[Guy MovingOn]

I'm sorry for the constant questions, especially about vacuum sealers, but I would really like to know which is better:

La.va V.333

or

Foodsaver V2860

I've seen them both available for purchase on eBay, but the Lava V333 retails for nearly £600! Which is a lot lot lot more than the Foodsaver! Is it really that much better??

Lava V333 is overkill, V100 http://lava-vacuum-p...ng.com/V100.htm is sufficient, as well as FoodSaver™ V2040 http://www.foodsaver...ls.aspx?pid=121 . You do not need high vacuum, but an instant-seal-button is recommendable. MagicVac Elite will do as well, mine is more than 10 years old and still working.
Regards
Pedro

I understand that it might be overkill, but if I can get it for a similar price as the Foodsaver then it might be worth it :)

[Guy MovingOn]

I made confit of duck thighs last night.
They had a marinade inspired by Culinary Bear from the Confit Thread for 12 hours, and since my waterbath can only go to 80C, I cooked them for 12 hours at 80C. Then into an ice bath and then held in the fridge until the next day. Reheated in the oven, and the skin was crisped with a blowtorch:



They were served on top of a bed of spicy sweet potato mash. The portions of the mash was huge as this was a course for 4 people to share, before we ate the breasts.

The flavour was amazing, the texture was great. There was still quite a bit of fat under the skin, but I expect that. It was less salty than the countless versions I have had during my summer holidays in France, and subsequent occasions when we have brought some tins back, which is something that I was pleasantly surprised by. Perhaps they often dont rinse the salt/marinade off before covering with fat? I would definitely do this again, and Culinary Bear's suggestion for marinade worked great. Unfortunately I can't go any higher than 80C, but I am not sure if there would be that much difference between 80C and 83C? But I'm just a uni student cooking for myself and housemates, so I don't know :)

Cheers :)

[therippa]

I just received a lobe of grade "A" foie gras from Sonoma, and would like prepare some of it en sous vide. For tonight, I want to do seared medallions. Any suggestions for temperature and time for 1/2 inch thick slices? It seems to me that if the point of cooking the foie sous vide is to minimize weight loss, after removal from the bath, I won't want to pan sear. Has anyone here used a torch on foie?

I found this - http://www.sousvidec...ing-47-minutes/

That's more for a torchon preparation though. I have to say however, sous vide isn't the solution for everything, and I couldn't imagine preparing seared foie gras any way other than slicing, chilling in the freezer for 5 minutes, and pan searing on a rocket-hot dry skillet 45 seconds each side.

...and I would imagine a torch would melt a hole through it.

[e_monster]

Food saver will have trouble with sauces/marinades that you plan to cook with the meat. It will suck them out with the air unless it is a chamber model.

Not true if you use pulse mode.

[PedroG]

For vacuum sealing with marinade, see http://forums.egulle...ost__p__1699429