1176 replies to this topic

[lennyk]

Yes, spare ribs are normally 4 hours or so at 235 in the smoker,
wanna be able to reduce that to 90 mins or so and get the color/smoke flavor in

[Chris Amirault]

Smoking them first and then finishing on a grill works really well, btw. I've done it a few times now and the results are excellent: some char, rendered fat, and meat just the way you like it (whatever that means).

Wanted to report on a few vegetable projects following Keller's Under Pressure 85C advice.

Pumpkin fans should take note that SV is, far and away, the best way to prepare this finicky squash. I put ~3/4" cleaned, skin-on pieces into a bag with nothing else, and after 60m they were tender and bright, bright orange. After testing it out of the freezer, I'm planning to do several more so that we have a store of pumpkin for the fall.

Also at 85C, I SVed small red potatoes with rosemary, pepper, and smoked salt for 90m and finished them on the grill for some smoke and char. I think 120m would have been a better time if I wasn't finishing on the grill, as they were a bit too toothy out of the bag.

One note about these potatoes: they were somewhat grey and splotchy out of the bag. I'm not sure if they were that way in the bag or if something happened when they hit the air. Anyone got an opinion?

[nickrey]

Sounds like what happens when potatoes oxidise. You could try adding some acid to the bag which should give a similar effect to putting it in acidulated water.

Edited by nickrey, 23 September 2010 - 06:38 AM.

[Chris Amirault]

I intentionally avoided acid in the bag for flavor reasons, trying to replicate a roasted potato dish we have here often. I wish I had been more attentive and knew whether they were blotchy in the bag or immediately after the cut faces being exposed to the air. I also wonder how deep the blotches go....

[e_monster]

I agree with Chris A. Smoke them first. They only need 10 to 20 minutes in the smoker. I would do that at a lower temp than 235 F if you can. Then bag them. The earlier in the cooking process that the smoke is introduced, the better in my experience. Smoking after the meat is cooked doesn't seem to work as well.

!0 minutes in the smoker before sous-vide should be adequate. The smoke flavor is then locked in the bag during cooking and penetrates nicely.

Use the search button at the bottom of the page to look for 'ribs'. I posted the temperature/time that I used for some killer baby back ribs that came out smoky and tender.

Yes, spare ribs are normally 4 hours or so at 235 in the smoker,
wanna be able to reduce that to 90 mins or so and get the color/smoke flavor in

[dougal]

...
Also at 85C, I SVed small red potatoes with rosemary, pepper, and smoked salt for 90m and finished them on the grill for some smoke and char. I think 120m would have been a better time if I wasn't finishing on the grill, as they were a bit too toothy out of the bag.

One note about these potatoes: they were somewhat grey and splotchy out of the bag. ... Anyone got an opinion?

Maybe Iodised salt ??

[Chris Amirault]

Does iodine limit oxidation?

ETA: It was Hawaiian pink salt, btw, not iodized.

Edited by Chris Amirault, 23 September 2010 - 10:41 AM.

[dougal]

Does iodine limit oxidation?

ETA: It was Hawaiian pink salt, btw, not iodized.

OK, if you've eliminated that, then its out already.

Blackening of starch is a very sensitive test for dissolved iodine.
If that were somehow being liberated (even to a truly tiny extent), there would be the possibility of trying to eliminate it by using non-iodised salt.
But you are already!


Do you have a sample of this batch of potatoes to test (for comparison) by conventional cooking? That way you might see whether the unconventional cooking method had contributed to this artifact, or whether it was due to something in the potatoes, like their (pre-purchase) storage and handling conditions.

[Chris Amirault]

I have no more of them, but they were bought at a farm and I had prepared several other batches without SV that didn't produce these effects. Still, way to many variables to conclude anything.

[mark28209]

I haven't noticed it posted here yet, but y'all should have a look at the excellent article in today's NYTimes on "Modernist Cuisine":

www.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/dining/22cookbook.html?_r=1&ref=dining

I hope I live close enough to regularly visit someone who can afford to buy Nathan's obviously amazing work.
Has there been previous discussion of the possibility of digital/DVD/etc. or online access to it?
Cheers, Mark

[MartinH]

Looks like KitchenAid is making a foray into the market for sous vide equipment with a system called Chef Touch. It has a chamber vacuum unit, a freezer/chiller unit, and a steam oven unit - but oddly no water bath - all stacked together in a stainless steel tower.

Here's a YouTube video. I imagine the system is only avaliable in Europe, and no doubt shockingly expensive.

[jackal10]

Pork normande results.
36 hours at 60C was definately too long or too hot, giving the pork shoulder cubes a fuzzy blotting paper texture.
24 hours at 58C is about the upper limit, for melt in the mouth texture.
If you are planning on re-heating I would scale that back to 18 or even 12 hours

[PeteJ]

Looks like KitchenAid is making a foray into the market for sous vide equipment with a system called Chef Touch. It has a chamber vacuum unit, a freezer/chiller unit, and a steam oven unit - but oddly no water bath - all stacked together in a stainless steel tower.

I don’t know anything about steam ovens, but does the use of steam imply that they’re cooking at the boiling temperature of water? Also, wouldn’t a steam oven have far less heat conductivity than a water bath?

[Chris Hennes]

Looks like KitchenAid is making a foray into the market for sous vide equipment with a system called Chef Touch. It has a chamber vacuum unit, a freezer/chiller unit, and a steam oven unit - but oddly no water bath - all stacked together in a stainless steel tower.

Presumably the steam oven works just like a combi-oven, right? That's what a lot of professionals doing large quantities of SV are using these days. I don't see why you'd want or need a water bath if you had one.

[jackal10]

Has anyone tried he Kenwood cooking chef http://www.kenwoodwo...okingChef/Home/ which builds an induction cooker into a mixer, albeit at a high price?
The web stite states temperature control in +/- 5C, with a precision on 2C, and this for a stirred system. It seems to me that the manufactureres are missing a trick here. At the high price they charge it surely could not have been that expensive to add a more precise PID temperature control...

[Chris Amirault]

I won't bother to report on several chicken breast escapades (five spice and schmaltz; basic butter with S&P) here, as they merely repeat a truism on this topic: SV is an amazing way to prepare that protein.

Has anyone had success with swordfish? There are some mediocre to bad trials up-topic, but no one seems to have a rave yet.

[ScottyBoy]

Just to comment. I recently had a big sous vide test night. Cooked ribeye, a couple different vegetables and pork loin all finished on the grill. When it came to the swordfish that someone brought I just grilled it. I'd say it's one of the hardest fish to get right but it the case of these 2 inch steaks, I just went traditional.

[Chris Amirault]

On the face of it, though, swordfish seems like just the protein to benefit from SV: usually cut relatively thick but even; often overcooked in standard high-heat applications. Is there something about the type of fish that makes it unsuitable for SV?

Given how much it costs -- even when on sale as it was today -- I'm not likely to be doing much experimenting....

[NY_Amateur]

I haven't noticed it posted here yet, but y'all should have a look at the excellent article in today's NYTimes on "Modernist Cuisine":

www.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/dining/22cookbook.html?_r=1&ref=dining

I hope I live close enough to regularly visit someone who can afford to buy Nathan's obviously amazing work.
Has there been previous discussion of the possibility of digital/DVD/etc. or online access to it?
Cheers, Mark

Yeah the price was a bit higher then i had thought, but it also seems like its a heck of a lot of knowledge so i think I will be pinching my pennys to get a copy when it comes out.

I'm not a big swordfish fan but I have had good success with monkfish tail thats sv'ed at 60C and then blotted dry and seared then sliced into medallions swordfish is a bit flakier so i would maybe try 55C. I would try this but im not a big fan so i will take a pass, but i am interested in hearing about successes.


edit: nm about the brisket went back and saw previous posts on it, its been a while since i have read this thread.

Edited by NY_Amateur, 26 September 2010 - 10:25 PM.

[nickrey]

I've cooked swordfish Chris and it comes out perfectly. It is so easy to overcook normally. Sous vide cooking gives the perfect amount of heat control to bring out the best of what I consider to be the steak of the sea.

Edited to add:

For temperature I'd do 53 - 55 C (127.4 - 131F). Timing will depend on thickness. 2 inch fillet like Scotty Boy used could probably take around two hours to reach a correct core temperature. Sear very briefly before serving.

Edited by nickrey, 26 September 2010 - 11:22 PM.

[PedroG]

Harold McGee, On Food & Cooking makes three interesting statements on swordfish (and tuna as well):
page 185: swordfish (and tuna) as a long-lived predator at the top of the food chain may accumulate significant amounts of toxins, especially mercury.
page 202: Atlantic stock of swordfish is thought to be down to less than a tenth its original size and in need of protection.
page 209: in swordfish, enzymes and some proteins in muscle cells are not locked in the contracting fibrils and furthermore coagulate at higher temperatures than myosin, so when myosin coagulates and squeezes out cell fluids including these proteins and enzymes, at 55°C and above these proteins coagulate in the spaces between the cells and glue the cells together, thus making the meat more chewy.

So for swordfish and tuna it might be wise to restrict target temperature to 50°C or below, and a 5cm steak may take 2½ - 3 hrs.

BTW here's a trick how to transfer fish into the skillet for searing without falling apart: lay the bag flat on a cutting board, with a sharp knife cut the bag open all around the fish, remove the top layer and the sideward strips of the bag and slide the fish into the skillet.

Edited by PedroG, 27 September 2010 - 01:13 AM.

[nickrey]

No comments about cooking a piece of fish for over 2 hours at 50C or less?

It's not something I'd do: Am I reading the literature wrongly?

I am looking for guidance on this one.

[PedroG]

What literature? Would you mind posting a link or citation?

[nickrey]

I don't cook at those temperatures so my understanding is not based on detailed reading of the literature. As I said above, I'm looking for guidance not a debate.

Looking back over the thread, NathanM said in this thread that he wouldn't cook fish at a low temperature for more than a few hours. Just wondering what if anything has changed.

Edited by nickrey, 28 September 2010 - 12:46 AM.

[jackal10]

I think that you may be referring to the problem that these temperatures are well below the pastaurisation temperatures.

Bacteria will grow and not be killed at these temperatures. The usual safe time is taken at that for a 10x growth of pathogens. The speed of growth depends on the temperature. The FDA codes appear to be based on a maximum of a 10x generations (doubling) of pathogens such as Listeria onocytogenes at 41ºF and Salmonella / Staphylococcus aureus at 115ºF. At 50C/122F this is 5.6 hours - the code specifies consumption within 4 hours of moving to an unsafe temperature. See, for example CALCULATING THE TOTAL GROWTH OF BACTERIA IN COOKED FOOD USING THE FDA CODE CONTROLS by O. Peter Snyder available online at http://www.hi-tm.com...lculations.html

If you cook for 3 hours at these temperatures, then you need to be sure that the food is consumed within an hour or so, less than 4 hours from when it was removed from the fridge and that furthermore it was fresh, safe and had a low pathogen load before cooking. Maybe possible at home if you have a good fishmonger, but much harder in a restaurant or service environment

Edited by jackal10, 28 September 2010 - 01:48 AM.

[PedroG]

I have avoided eating tuna for decades as it was always served gray throughout with a texture like well-done veal, until I was served rare tuna in a gourmet restaurant, which was a revelation. The discussion on swordfish made me consult St. Harold's bible and it gave me the scientific explanation why tuna (like swordfish) should not be cooked to 55°C or above. So tuna should only be bought in sushi grade quality as pasteurization conditions would overcook it.
The 2½ - 3 hrs. I mentioned above for a 5cm cut are of course a bit uncommon, as most fish fillets are much thinner and done in 30-45 minutes. And fish cooked for considerably longer time than necessary may get mushy; furthermore excessive vacuum as provided by chamber-type machines should be avoided*, ziploc bags are fine for fish.

* See Dave Arnold: "Boring but useful technical post: vacuum machines affect the texture of your meat"

[nickrey]

When I cooked swordfish, it was a thinner cut and I took it to around 53C. It worked really well. Perhaps we should say that the thinner cuts (up to 3cm/1 inch) are best for doing sous vide as the cooking times for thicker cuts may be too long.

[Chris Amirault]

Terrific idea from Alton Brown about using the chimney charcoal starter as a high-heat grill. (Click here for the Amazon link, including pix, of a chimney charcoal starter.) I would imagine that it would be very effective for browning SV-ed meat quickly -- and a lot hotter than doing so after you've dumped the hot coals into your Weber kettle, as I have done a few times.

[Chris Amirault]

I just made chili with ten pounds of chuck, doing all of the pre-simmer work on the stove and then sealing two whopping bags of the stuff for the SVS. 16 hours at 61C produced very good flavor and texture that was just this side of what I wanted (tender but toothy), so I finished with an hour or two on the stove (I had opened the bags and didn't want to reseal) in the Le Creuset dutch oven in which I served it to guests.

One thing I noted was that the effects of the prior SV/LTLT cooking seemed to be sustained on the stove; the meat had that succulent, remarkable consistency you get from this technique even though it spent a bit of time bubbling atop a burner significantly hotter than 61C. It may be that I was just being careful, or is it possible that 16 hours at 61F somehow makes the meat less likely to be overcooked later? Seems hard to justify scientifically with my limited knowledge....

[PedroG]

I got hanger steak precut in cubes in a self-service. It was very cheap, so I suspect it must be from the tougher outer part. Any suggestions for time/temp? Acid marinade?
Thanks
Pedro