977 replies to this topic

[MikeHartnett]

Well, I received my Auber Temp Controller in the mail yesterday, and I'd like to get down to using it tonight.  I'd prefer to start with something that I can begin early afternoon today and eat for dinner, so no 24 hour + projects, etc. 

Anyone have any suggestions?

Mike,

Try a really big thick steak. Would only take a couple of hours and then you take it out and sear it nicely. Very tender and a really nice effect to see a couple of inches thick steak perfectly evenly cooked all the way through with a nice crispy outside.

Thanks for the advice. Any suggestions on what temp to cook at?

Edited by MikeHartnett, 08 February 2008 - 10:31 AM.

[arbeck]

Thanks for the advice.  Any suggestions on what temp to cook at?

What temperature do you like your steak cooked to? For a long cooking steak, I usually go with 135F as that is high enough to not worry about pathogens, but still leave the steak medium rare. If you like a steak more medium adjust the time up.

Personally, when doing a thick steak I like to season it first (and I always use some smoked salt), then seal it, and let it sit in the fridge for a bit first while the bath gets up to temp. Then I cook it through (or longer for flat iron, hanger steak, and flap meat) in the bath. When I'm satisfied it's done, I sear the outside with a blow torch or a smoking hot cast iron pan.

[jackal10]

Thanks Nathan,
You raise an interesting point about the fat rendering. I think the temperature stall of BBQ smokers when smoking brisket at around 72C is the fat melting.
This joint has an outer layer of fat, but the meat itself looks lean.



This is for a dinner party tomorrow night, so I am cooking it whole.
I am fortunate to have a large Grant Instruments bath
I have a maximum of 24 hours, rather then 36 or more.

It would indeed be normal restaurant practice to portion it beforehand and bag each portion seperately for ease, better portion control and less wastage, and in a restaurant I'd probably use neck fillet.
However, 2.25kg of boned leg is what I have, and here it is vac packed with rosemary, bay, garlic and some goose fat.



Current thought is 12 hours at 76C, unless anyone suggests different.

The only reference on the web I can find is Chris Staines from 2005 http://www.catererse...-big-sheep.html which is bizarre: 20 mins at 80C, then roast 20 mins at
180C. I cannot imagine the heat penetrating the meat in that time, nor the collagen dissolving, so I guess there is a misprint.

Edited by jackal10, 08 February 2008 - 11:02 AM.

[e_monster]

Well, I received my Auber Temp Controller in the mail yesterday, and I'd like to get down to using it tonight.  I'd prefer to start with something that I can begin early afternoon today and eat for dinner, so no 24 hour + projects, etc. 

Anyone have any suggestions?

Mike,

Try a really big thick steak. Would only take a couple of hours and then you take it out and sear it nicely. Very tender and a really nice effect to see a couple of inches thick steak perfectly evenly
cooked all the way through with a nice crispy outside.

Thanks for the advice. Any suggestions on what temp to cook at?

What is your heat source going to be?

How bloody do you like your steak? I like mine at the rare side of medium rare. If you are planning on searing it afterwards (which I recommend), you don't need to cook to sterilization -- which will be just as safe as pan frying to rare/medium-rare. I cook mine somewhere between 125 and 131.

Since you aren't tendering the meat, there is no need (or even benefit) for leaving it in the bath longer than needed to bring it up to temp (use Nathan's tables to determine how long that is).

Here are a couple of searing tips:

0) Use a THICK high-quality steak. Rib-eye is my favorite and I prefer a steak (when cooking sous vide) that is an inch or so thick (or more).
1) Heat your pan (preferably NOT a non-stick pan since they don't like really high temps) for at least 10 minutes on a high flame/burner. You are looking to get the cooking surface hotter than 750F.
2) Use a paper towel on the steak after taking it out of the bag. Removing the moisture allows the crust to form very quickly.
3) Sear for only 30 seconds or so per side (if the pan is hot enough you won't need even that long).

ALSO, if you like poached eggs, try cooking eggs at 145F or 146F overnight. They don't need that long but it is really nice to put the eggs in the cooker before going to bed and wake up with delicious poached eggs ready to eat. My wife has become addicted to them.

[MikeHartnett]

Thanks, arbeck and e_monster! My heat source is a slow cooker. I think I'll try the ribeye, and possibly the poached eggs tonight, and I'll report back.

[joesan]

Little bit of cross posting here - sorry Jackal10.

Mike - I pretty much go with what has been said above. I'd just add cook about 51-52C, 125f or maybe just slightly higher. For extra flavour season the steak before it goes into the bag with plenty of salt, if you have it add a little goose fat (but don't worry if you don't).

Also I recommend really really searing the steak to get a flavoursome crust afterwards. eMonsters method looks good. But you really must do this for the flavour to be all it can be. You'll love 'em!

[DouglasBaldwin]

Thanks, arbeck and e_monster!  My heat source is a slow cooker.  I think I'll try the ribeye, and possibly the poached eggs tonight, and I'll report back.

Hey Mike,

I know it has been mentioned up thread, but I would highly recommend using an aquarium air pump to circulate the water. I noticed substantial differences in temperature at different locations in my slow cooker before I add the bubbler. Just put the tubing into the slow cooker (no air stone required) with a little weight to keep it on the bottom and you will be good to go.

I now use an immersion circulator, but find that the results are no better than my previous slow cooker, air pump, PID system.

Best Wishes

Douglas

Edited by DouglasBaldwin, 08 February 2008 - 11:36 AM.

[dougal]

...
This is for a dinner party tomorrow night, so I am cooking it whole.
I am fortunate to have a large Grant Instruments bath
I have a maximum of 24 hours, rather then 36 or more.

It would indeed be normal restaurant practice to portion it beforehand and bag each portion seperately for ease, better portion control and less wastage, and in a restaurant I'd probably use neck fillet.
However, 2.25kg of boned leg is what I have, ...

The thinking behind my portioning question was that individual 'tranches' would surely cook much, much faster...

[jackal10]

No, this is low temperatrue cooking.
The time for the food to some to an even temperature does indeed depend on thickness, but is slow (2 or 3 hours) compared to the total cooking time. WHile it is important for, say, cooking steak or a roast at high temperature, in this context other things, and in particular the collagen dissolution is what governs the time.

Edited by jackal10, 08 February 2008 - 04:44 PM.

[dougal]

...

Current thought is 12 hours at 76C, unless anyone suggests different.

The only reference on the web I can find is Chris Staines from 2005 http://www.catererse...-big-sheep.html which is bizarre: 20 mins at 80C, then roast 20 mins at
180C. I cannot imagine the heat penetrating the meat in that time, nor the collagen dissolving, so I guess there is a misprint.

You see this is what doesn't make sense to me.
In "Mastering the Art of French Cooking", Julia Childs et al speak of a final core temperature for lamb/mutton (incidentally, no difference between them in cooking times and temps they say) after traditional cooking, of 170F as being distinctly "well done", and 160/165F (~72C) as being preferable.
And for "medium rare" Childs et al suggest a final core of just 145 to 150F (~64C).

I'd have thought that equilibrating the whole lump at an even higher temperature than that suggested traditional final core (for "well done" meat), and holding it there for, say, another 8 hours was going to result in "overcooked" meat.

I've been thinking that one picked the equilibration temperature as matching, or rather determining, the desired "degree of doneness" (and that holding it at that temperature shouldn't/couldn't overcook it in any reasonable timescale). But yes the length of time held at that temperature should be long enough to complete any desired processes that will happen at that temperature, whether for hygiene or tenderness sake.

I appreciate that you want to hurry along collagen breakdown, but it seems to me as though 76C is rather higher than I'd expect.

Are you planning any additional higher temperature Maillard browning and flavouring, as with the recipe you linked?


It strikes me that if you are tight for time, then (from nathanm's tables) reducing the meat to thick slices before cooking, would give you at least an extra 3 hours or so of "time at temperature", which, in the context of a 12 hour total timeframe, looks as though it might be significant.

However, personally, I'm just trying to get my head around this stuff, before I go and add a PID and vac-packer to my cluttered life!
So, I look forward to hearing what course might be chosen, and what then resulted, not least to develop my own understanding of this mysterious niche.

Bon appetit!

Edited by dougal, 08 February 2008 - 07:04 PM.

[e_monster]

Thanks Nathan,
You raise an interesting point about the fat rendering. I  think the temperature stall of BBQ smokers when smoking brisket at around 72C is the fat melting.
This joint has an outer layer of fat, but the meat itself looks lean.

As an fyi, I have read a few places that the temperature stall is related to the transformation of collagen to gelatin rather than the rendering of the fat. I have found a number of references to it on the web BUT haven't found an authoritative quotation (from someone like Blumenthal or Harold McGee).

[MikeHartnett]

Well, I cooked strip steak at 51C tonight, and it came out great. I probably could have kept it in a bit longer, as the outside was still a bit chewy, but the inside was perfectly tender and pink. I made a mushroom sauce and served it with Joel Robuchon's fries.

Thanks for all the advice!

[inuyaki]

So I've had beef short ribs in the bath at 60C/140F since Wed. night for a Saturday dinner party. This morning, I woke up to the alarm on my immersion circulator. Apparently one of the bags had floated up into the heating element and it shut itself off. I ran downstairs and the water temp was down to 43C/109.4F. I immediately turned it back on and it got to temp pretty quickly but I think that the circulator had been off for around an hour.

Last time something like this happened, the water temp was really low (33C/91.4F) when I discovered the problem and I threw that batch of ribs out and replaced it. I picked up a flank steak this evening to replace the short ribs in case I have to toss this batch, too.

What should I do? Did the water temp go down too far?

Thanks in advance...

[e_monster]

Smoky Baby Back Ribs Sous Vide

1 rack baby back ribs

Smoked in a Cameron stovetop smoker briefly to impart some smoke flavor (I had the heat on for 10 minutes to get the smoke going then let it rest without heat for 10 minutes and repeated).

Then I rubbed the ribs with my favorite dry rub (Magic Dust from the recipe in Peace, Love and Barbecue -- a book I recommend) and vac'ed it with my FoodSaver

This went into a 170F bath (I wanted the temp high enough to render and not just soften the fat). I let it go for 5 hrs at 170 then set the thermostat to 160F for the last hour (the temp never actually dropped that low).

I let the ribs rest in the bag for about 10 minutes then removed them, brushed them very lightly with bbq sauce and made a pass with a propane torch to get a little Maillard action going.

The ribs were very tender and there was plenty of smoke flavor. I will repeat and may try lowering the temp a bit earlier to see what the texture is like -- although I don't feel that the texture needed improving.

p.s. The bath was a Hamilton Beach roaster oven (which I picked up for $10 at a local thrift store -- it isimilar to the Nesco 18 qt roaster) connected to an Auber PID. I used an aquarium air pump for circulation. The 1/4 hose was stuck in the water sans airstone which kept the temperatures uniform. There was an initial 2F oveshoot but within an hour the temperature was rock solid. I will experiment with settings to see if I can eliminate the initial overshoot -- the roaster has a lot of inertia so some tweaking will be needed to find the ideal settings. (NOTE: when using a system with less inertia, like my 7 qt multi-cooker, there is no significant overshoot -- there isn't a lot of residual heat in the multi-cooker's heating element).

[joesan]

Well, I cooked strip steak at 51C tonight, and it came out great.  I probably could have kept it in a bit longer, as the outside was still a bit chewy, but the inside was perfectly tender and pink.  I made a mushroom sauce and served it with Joel Robuchon's fries.

Thanks for all the advice!

Mike - Welcome to Club Sous Vide! I think you'll find it gets easier and better once you've done it a few times. Nice sounding menu...

[RobC]

Like e_monster, I did baby back pork ribs yesterday, inspired by Daniel's post a few days ago.

I dry-rubbed the ribs for a day and a half (using the dry rub recipe in The Best Recipe from Cooks Illustrated), SV'd them for about 9 hours at 185F (the temp used by Daniel), and grilled them with bbq sauce (also using the recipe from The Best Recipe). So higher temp than e_monster used, and longer cooking time.

The ribs were great, falling off the bone tender--in fact, the meat fell off the bone a little too readily for easy handling. But the texture was fine.

I think next time I'll reduce the cooking time a bit and see if that leaves the meat on the bones a little better.

[e_monster]

Well, I cooked strip steak at 51C tonight, and it came out great.  I probably could have kept it in a bit longer, as the outside was still a bit chewy, but the inside was perfectly tender and pink.  I made a mushroom sauce and served it with Joel Robuchon's fries.

Thanks for all the advice!

When cooking steaks sous-vide, the cooking is primarily to bring the meat up to serving temperature and not for tenderizing the steak -- the fat will soften (which results in a nice mouthfeel) but don't expect the steak to be made more tender by the sous vide process ( tenderizing takes many hours which for steaks also compromises their texture).

Was the center of the steak at the degree of doneness that you wanted? If so, the cooking time wasn't an issue.

Here are questions that might help you figure out how to get a better result next time.

Perhaps the quality of the steak was a problem?

How thick was the steak?

Did you brown the steak post sous-vide in a hot pan? If so, how long did it spend in the pan and how hot was the pan? Ideally, you want the pan so hot that 20 to 30 seconds will be enough to create a great crust. In my reading (about cooking steaks), the most commonly mentioned tip that I have seen is that people often don't get the pan hot enough. You want the crust to form as quickly as possible.

[jackal10]

Boned leg of mutton after 12 hours at 76C:

In the bag


Which consists of the much shrunken meat


and juice


After browning, and reducing the juice



Part plated


Flavour was excellent, texture OK.
However I think next time I will cook at a a lower temperature for longer so as not to squeeze out the juices.

[e_monster]

Good job. Did you let the meat rest in the bag to come down in temp (which will take a bit longer than out of the bag)?

You probably know this (but maybe others don't), even if you cook at only 140F, you will want to let the meat rest to let the muscle fibers relax and re-absorb the juices.

I recently discovered that I have habitually not been giving meat enough time to rest.

For complex cuts of meat, I am wondering whether a multi-temp cooking process might not be best for some large cuts of meat: an initial stage around 170F to render some of the outer fat followed by a drop in bath temp to something like 135 or 140 for the rest of the cooking.

After reading Harold McGee's recent NY Times article about heat, I am thinking that this might be a worthwhile area to explore.

[jackal10]

I dont think it works like that. Once you get the temperature above say 55C the proteins start to denature and the muscle fibres shrink, irreversibly, Searing the outside is done at high heat quickly, so theheat does not have time o penetrate.
I maybe should sear both befoe and after and cook at 55C...

[pounce]

I remember Nathan posted he had good success with using a jaccard to sheer some of the muscle fibers and prevent the "squeezing" out of juices during cooking. This might be a good approach for large roasts and cuts.

This page has a simple table showing the advantages. SV is not mentioned.

http://www.jaccard.c...45B.asp?group=R


* adding reference to post up thread.

http://forums.egulle...9

Edited by pounce, 09 February 2008 - 05:30 PM.

[e_monster]

I dont think it works like that. Once you get the temperature above say 55C the proteins start to denature and the muscle fibres shrink, irreversibly, Searing the outside is done at high heat quickly, so theheat does not have time o penetrate.
I maybe should sear both befoe and after and cook at 55C...

I didn't phrase my message well. You are correct that there is irreversible muscle fibre shrinkage/tightening/denaturing and that cooling does not reverse the de-naturing, but there is also some amount of re-absorption of the moisture that has been expelled if the meat rests--I have read that it is partly due to the relaxing of the fibers--perhaps that is not why the moisture gets reabsorbed, but I have found it to be worthwhile to rest anything that I cook at over 140F. Ever since I read Blumenthal's book Family Cooking, I have taken to resting meat and have found his assertion to be correct that resting the meat (even when cooked at fairly low temperature results in some juices being re-absorbed that would otherwise end up on the plate.

It may be (it seems likely) that there is a temperature above which the proteins/fibers are so-denatured that no re-absorption is possible. In any case, I think resting is worth a try.

And I won't mind being found wrong if it doesn't work. In those cases where it does make a difference, the difference can be huge.

[slkinsey]

My understanding is that any redistribution of juices that may happen is due to temperature disequilibrium effects. If the meat has been cooked several hours, as did jackal10's mutton, and the meat and liquid are all at one equilibrated temperature, I don't believe there will be any uptake of the cooking liquid by the meat. Indeed, it's not clear to me that uptake of external liquid is something that happens at all (although I suppose it might happen to a minor extent if one were to cool a hot chunk of deep-fried beef in a container of liquid). e-monster, if you have any information to the contrary from Blumenthal's book that you would like to post, I'd be grateful if you would post it.

Considering that jackal10 cooked his mutton for 12 hours, I don't think that resting the meat in the bag would have had any effect. Rather, it seems likely to me that, as others suggested upthread, his temperature of 76C was simply way too high. Granted, given the short timeframe, some compromises had to be made. Next time, I'd try suggest something more like 68C for 36 hours.

[slkinsey]

For complex cuts of meat, I am wondering whether a multi-temp cooking process might not be best for some large cuts of meat: an initial stage around 170F to render some of the outer fat followed by a drop in bath temp to something like 135 or 140 for the rest of the cooking.

In terms of muscle fibers and "doneness" I believe that, once your meat equilibrates at the higher temperature, that's the level you're going to get. I don't know that anything would be accomplished by reducing the temperature thereafter, except that you would slow down certain other beneficial reactions (e.g., conversion of collagen to gelatin, melting of hard fat, etc.). If you're going to go as high as 170, might as well do it fast, no?

All of which is to say that cooking to 170 for a few hours and then lowering to 140 for another 12 hours strikes me as still being likely to give you the level of doneness associated with 170 and probably the same amount of water loss, but with more retained fat and less conversion of collagen. The contraction of muscle fiber that is responsible for a lot of water loss starts at around 50C.

Edited by slkinsey, 09 February 2008 - 05:07 PM.

[e_monster]

I am talking about changing the temperature before the meat has entirely come up to temperature. I am talking about large cuts where after an hour or two the meat has not come up to temperature. Also, keep in mind that the 'doneness' of a piece of meat that does reach 170F for a minute will be very different from one that has been at 170F for quite a while. The chemical reactions are not instantaneous.

If it is a large cut of meat, after a couple of hours the meat will not have all gotten up to temperature. This technique is very common when cooking large pieces of meat via traditional methods and with some adjustment for the difference in media.

Not all the chemical processes happen at the same rate -- quite a bit of the outer fat will soften and render before the protein has done all its denaturing -- especially if you lower the temp before the inner core is up to the bath temperature.

I might be wrong but I hardly think that this line of exploration/inquiry is silly.

[slkinsey]

I might be wrong but I hardly think that this line of exploration/inquiry is silly.

I agree that it's not silly to inquire and explore. But I still think it has limited usefulness. That said, I am absolutely open to the possibility that I could be widely mistaken on this.

So, in the spirit of inquiry, exploration and discussion. . .

I am talking about changing the temperature before the meat has entirely come up to temperature. I am talking about large cuts where after an hour or two the meat has not come up to temperature.

You're talking, then, about changing the temperature before the meat has had a chance to equilibrate. The meat will not be at thermal equilibrium until the temperature of the meat is equal to the temperature of the water bath.

What this means is that the meat will be in a condition somewhat similar to what is obtained via traditional cooking: It will be warmer on the outside than it is in the center. The outside would be at 76C but the interior would be at only, say, 55C -- with a temperature gradient running from the exterior to the interior. I'm not sure why this would be desirable.

When you lower the water bath temperature to, say, 68C, several things could happen, depending on how you lower the temperature of the water bath. If you simply turn down the set point on the water bath heater, the bath will come down to the new temperature quite slowly. In this case, the meat is likely to equilibrate at a temperature only a few degrees lower than the high temperature (say, 73C) before slowly coming down to the new set point along with the rest of the water bath. If you turn down the set point and manually cool the bath (e.g., with ice water) to the new set point, the meat will equilibrate at a lower temperature before coming to the new set point. It will depend on the thermal energy stored in the meat (determined by cooking time at the higher temperature) as to whether it temporarily equilibrates at a temperature higher or lower than the new set point.

Also, keep in mind that the 'doneness' of a piece of meat that does reach 170F for a minute will be very different from one that has been at 170F for quite a while. The chemical reactions are not instantaneous.

I'm not sure this is entirely correct. If a piece of beef is heated up to 76C for one second, it's going to be "well done." It may not have any of the other characteristics one would like to have from a piece of well done meat (e.g., the collagen and fat melting associated with braised or otherwise traditionally long-cooked meat) but it will be "well done."

Not all the chemical processes happen at the same rate -- quite a bit of the outer fat will soften and render before the protein has done all its denaturing -- especially if you lower the temp before the inner core is up to the bath temperature.

This makes some sense, but again I have to wonder whether there aren't better and more effective ways to do this. For example, external fat can be removed and rendered. Or the meat can be browned to start this fat softening (which has other beneficial effects, of course). And so on. What kind of meat can you think of that one might want to cook using sous vide techniques instead of traditional ones, where unequal doneness would be desired?

[MikeTMD]

OK, last night I made Laab Gai ( Spicy Thai Chicken Salad):

Chicken breast SV @ 62C for 90 minutes

Roasted Chipollini onions

Mint/Shizo

Chinese parsley

Garlic

Thai chillies

Mayer lemon juice, yuzu juice, fish sauce

Long Balinese pepper, Grains of Paradise, Roasted rice ( for crunch)

Asian pear ribbons (garnish)


The result was excellent.

In my book, 62 C is perfect temp for chicken breasts - meat was very juicy, texture was absolutely perfect, almost foie gras like. Also, I checked the J Roca's book for poultry: they recommend 62C core temp for squab and pheasant. Can't agree more!

[Daniel]

Anyone do vanilla poached pears sous vide

[pounce]

Most recipes call for a simmer for poached pears. Thats not going to work well in a bag. If you do want to try you could use ball jars or similar and put a pear in each. It would ensure you didn't damage the appearance of the whole pears.

[sasquatch]

When cooking PORK BABY BACK RIBS sous vide, what happens to the smelly scum that comes out of the bones? Would you guys suggest blanching them first to remove some of that smelly scum?