977 replies to this topic

[MikeTMD]

Let me throw this one in the proverbial "simmering" pot:

How many people prefer the idea of cooking at the core/final temp, thus eliminating the risk of overcooking, vs. the higher SV temps, and thus shorter cooking times.

I am a big proponent of the cooking temp=core temp approach, just because of the ideal core temp results. Any input, anyone?

[chefjerky]

I am with you on the cooking temp=core temp approach. It's the only method that I have ever used. I have not had undesirable results yet. OK, besides vegetables. Not overcooking the protein has to be the biggest reason that I started dabbling in SV.

[RobC]

Same here. Cooking at target temp also avoids the need to recalibrate if starting temperature is different from that used by Nathan and the possibility of overcooking portions of cuts that are of varying thickness (e.g., chicken breasts).

SV'd some beef chuck eye steaks tonight, browned and cooked with wine, tomato paste and herbs for 7.5 hours @ 131F. Powerful good.

[MikeTMD]

Same here. Cooking at target temp also avoids the need to recalibrate if starting temperature is different from that used by Nathan and the possibility of overcooking portions of cuts that are of varying thickness (e.g., chicken breasts).

SV'd some beef chuck eye steaks tonight, browned and cooked with wine, tomato paste and herbs for 7.5 hours @ 131F. Powerful good.

Rob,

did you have wine in your SV bag, or did you use it just during the searing process?

[Daniel]

Would you consider sharing your smoked bacon stock recipe?

Here's mine that I think works pretty well...

1 lb Applewood smoked Bacon
2 lb chicken wings or backs
3 Liters of water
1 Onion
1 Carrot
3 thyme sprigs
10 black peppercorns
2 cloves
1 clove garlic
1 star anise
1 tsp coriander
½ cinnamon stick

Brown the bacon and then sweat the vegetables and spices in the fat for a bit, then add the chicken and water. I would estimate probably 2 hours of simmering but I'm not 100% sure because I've been using Heston Blumenthal's pressure cooker method for stock lately. If you have a pressure cooker, let it go for 30 minutes, take it off and let it sit until the pressure goes down. After straining and defatting you can either use it or clarify it, depending on what you're using it for.

I add bay leaves and leeks.. But, thats pretty much my recipe.. I also use a 6 pound piece of double smoked bacon and no necks.. I then press the bacon, peel it, and then cover in a dry rub for another dish.. But that stock I then cook down and save..

Edited by Daniel, 05 February 2008 - 08:34 PM.

[RobC]

Rob, did you have wine in your SV bag, or did you use it just during the searing process?

The wine was frozen and placed in the SV bag.

[MikeTMD]

Was meat texture any different from what it would be without wine? I've been hesitant to put wine in SV bags becuase of some feedback form "up the thread". Sounds like you are pretty satisfied with your recent results, so I may give it a try.

Global question: does wine/alcohol belong in SV bags?

[RobC]

Texture was fine, like grilled rib eye--tender but not at all mushy. I'd never cooked this particular cut before, and I was very happy with the result.

[Ruth]

I did have a problem with mushy meat when I had wine in the bag. This was a couple of years ago and one of my earliest ventures into sous-vide. We thought the alcohol might have denatured the protein. Perhaps I used too much but I have not used wine in the bag since then.

[TheSwede]

You can always boil off the alcohol first. The you should mostly have acids and flavours left.

[derekslager]

Thomas Keller suggests as much in TFLC, specifically suggesting that raw alcohol can "cook" (in effect) the exterior of the meat, preventing flavors from being fully absorbed. This advice was specific to marination (12+ hours sans heat), but I think it would also apply here.

[nathanm]

Nathan, I am curious - what kind of equipment do use in your SV set-up?

I have a lot of SV equipment! Many water baths - both immersion circulators and integral baths. I also use Rational combi-ovens to use low temperature steam for SV. I have a couple vacuum packers, but my current favorite is Henkelman (a Dutch company that is not distributed very much in the US).

I recently got one of the Auber Instruments units to test, and it seems very useful for an inexpensive approach to SV.

I also have a couple smokers and a lot of other kitchen equipment.

[henri]

I thought I'd share our current favorite way of preparing Tilapia:

- buy the individually vacuum packed frozen fillets from the local grocery or Costco

- put directly from the freezer into 118deg water for 20min (or longer, I've left it in there for up to 40min with little difference in texture)

- season with salt & pepper, dredge in flour -> egg -> Penko

- pan fry in HOT oil till the Penko "looks right"

serve with whatever works for you.

This really shows off the power of sous-vide for me, we have cooked these at least 5 times and the results are exactly the same each and every time (moist flaky fish, crisp breading). No worries about undercooked thick parts, or overcooked thin parts.

we have a large rice cooker and a PID controller (bought it before Auber released their pre-built unit)

Edited by henri, 06 February 2008 - 01:06 PM.

[arbeck]

Something I've found (and I must admit I stole the idea from Heston Blumenthal) is replacing some of the salt I use to season my meat with smoked salt before sealing. I've done this with pork shoulder that I turned into carnitas and steak. While it doesn't completely substitute for the smoke flavor real smoke imparts, it does do a pretty good job.

[e_monster]

Do you make the smoked salt yourself (if so, could you share your recipe/method) or purchase it?

[e_monster]

My trusty FoodSaver seems to be dying after several years of service and I will need to replace it in the not-too-distant future. I am having trouble deciding which model to getl

I have a question for anyone that has experience with both those FoodSavers with the PulseVac option vs. those with the extended seal time option. Costco has one with the PulseVac option for around $100. Tuesday Morning has an older model that has no PulseVac option but has an 'extended sealling time' button.

Any thoughts of the relative merits of these options -- especially vis-a-vis packing food for sous vide?

[pounce]

I'd personally buy the one at Costco. Best warantee you will ever find.

[inuyaki]

We have the Foodsaver from Costco and I think the Pulse feature is essential for sous vide. It lets you have control over the vacuum so you can decide when you want to seal the bag. I almost always use the Pulse feature instead of the automatic settings.

[jmolinari]

I dont understand the extended seal. My old old foodsaver almost overmelts the bags when sealing, i cut it off before it does...i can't imagine extended seal.

[qrn]

hope I don't make anyone feel to bad....But...I found a perfect f/s pro II the other day for $9.00 at the thrift store...Hope that is not using up all my luck for the year...
Bud

[pounce]

I dont understand the extended seal. My old old foodsaver almost overmelts the bags when sealing, i cut it off before it does...i can't imagine extended seal.

It's helpful when sealing liquids. If you have good control you know when and how much liquid is going to get sucked into the spill trough. If you make a seal and there is liquid in the way the extra sealing time helps to get a good seal.

Also, if you use bags that aren't FS and are heavy duty they can take a little more time.

I sometimes seal commercial packaging like chips and dried fruit packages without using vacuum. If you have folds and multiple layers etc the extra time helps get a seal all the way through.

[Halo Chef]

["Few hours" for shellfish is a certain overkill - there is simply not enough connective tissue to justify that kind of cooking time.

When cooking below 130F, you basically need to keep the cooking time as short as is necessary to get the food up to temp. It can be held a little bit longer (as long as you keep it within the safe limits for food in the hot zone) but you don't want long cook times. (All items that cook for a long time are done so at temps that are outside of the danger zone).

A few hours at under 120F is dangerous rather than overkill. At 113F to 130 F (especially under 120F), your bath is an incubator -- the pathogens will multiply much faster at these temps than at room temp.

So, take a look at Nathan M's tables up-thread and base your cooking times on the time to get the food up to temp.

Also, find Nathan's posts where he discusses the safe time that food can be in the 'hot zone'. He lays out valuable little understood information very well. [Maybe a FAQ or thread that contains just that information could be started? Everyone should really have that info on hand.]

Well, my waterbath arrived last week, and I just got a consumer-level vacuum sealer, so I'm finally ready to go.

I'm looking for advice re: prawns and scallops. I've looked upthread, and noted that Nathan cooks prawns to 45C / 113F -- I'm assuming the same would work for scallops? And, how long should they cook for after reaching core temp? I know with temps this low, it shouldn't be more than "a few hours" but that still leaves a lot of lee-way.

Has anyone tried cooking shrimp or scallops at a higher temp for longer?

Thanks! Any input would be valued.


Guys try this:

The first thing I ever SVed was shrimp. The recipe I used was:

Shrimp (Fresh Tiger Shrimp is my next test project)
Ginger
Lemon
Sea Salt
Pepper

25 mins @ 140

Excellent. Best shrimp ever. Incredible texture!

I have not tried the 113 yet but will in the future.

[RobC]

When I got my FS Pro III I spent an hour with the instruction manual and on the Internet trying to figure out how I was supposed to set the "Sea Level" control. Only later did I look closer and see it was "Seal Level".

[arbeck]

e_monster,

I actually buy my smoke salt, simply because it's so much cheaper than the amount of work it takes to make it. I get mine at World Spice Merchants here in Seattle. (http://worldspice.co...edseasalt.shtml)

But, I have made liquid smoke, and I imagine that the process would be quite similar. Just put some brine (either salt water or other) in a smoker until it evaporates and you get salt.

[jackal10]

I picked up a nice leg of MUTTON at the butchers Mutton, not lamb.
Organic rare breed etc... flavoursome but potentially tough.
I have in mind to serve it with caper sauce, as the sous vide equivalent of boiled leg of mutton.

What time and temperature to do it justice?
12 hours at 76C? 24 hours at 58C?
Flavourings? (some of garlic, rosemary, bay, pepper)
Advise please...

Edited by jackal10, 08 February 2008 - 08:26 AM.

[Ruth]

I had problems with a leg of lamb which I boned and rolled and then cooked at 56C for 12 hours. But this was a really young animal and the texture was just not right. Perhaps you will have better luck with an older animal at a higher temperature

[nathanm]

Well, I am not exactly a mutton specialist! I've never cooked mutton SV, at least so far.

The classic thing to do with mutton is to cook it to death - meaning braise for a long period of time to to get very tender, grey meat with a texture similar to other long-braised (osso bucco) or confit cooked meat.

Part of the reason to do this is to tenderize the meat, which can be tough, but part of the reason is that most old-time traditional recipes cooked meat to death.

To get this effect you would cook at roughly 80C (or 76C if you prefer - the exact temperture is not critical but something at above 75C) for 12 hours. If you want confit like texture put some oil in the bag.

If you cook at 55C to 60C, you will get a less-cooked-to-death texture, but you will need to cook much longer to get it tender. 24 hours at least, and it could easily take 36 or even 48 hours. I have cooked some tough beef cuts up to 96 hours. The lower temperture will eventually convert colagen to gelatine and this is an important aspect of tedenization.

However, tenderization is not the only reason to braise meat at high temp - if you do pork shoulder or other fatty cuts one can cook them at 55C, and get them tender, but the fat does not render at that temperature, which can be a bit of a surprise. I don't know to what extent that is a problem with your mutton.

I don't know how tough the mutton is, so it is pretty hard to say what you should do here. One approach is to throw it in for a period, take it out, test it, and if it is not to your liking put it back in for a while. There is no reason you can't rebag and cook sous vide. Obviously this wouldn't work if you are planning it for a dinner party.

Good luck, and by all means post your results so we can all learn from them!

[MikeHartnett]

Well, I received my Auber Temp Controller in the mail yesterday, and I'd like to get down to using it tonight. I'd prefer to start with something that I can begin early afternoon today and eat for dinner, so no 24 hour + projects, etc.

Anyone have any suggestions?

[joesan]

Mike,

Try a really big thick steak. Would only take a couple of hours and then you take it out and sear it nicely. Very tender and a really nice effect to see a couple of inches thick steak perfectly evenly cooked all the way through with a nice crispy outside.

[dougal]

I picked up a nice leg of MUTTON at the butchers Mutton, not lamb.
Organic rare breed etc... flavoursome but potentially tough.
I have in mind to serve it with caper sauce, as the sous vide equivalent of boiled leg of mutton.

What time and temperature to do it justice?
12 hours at 76C? 24 hours at 58C?
Flavourings? (some of garlic, rosemary, bay, pepper)
Advise please...

As an s-v spectator (for now), may I ask whether it'd be usual to cook this whole (as seems to be implied) or to portion it before 'bagging' -- which I had understood to be the restaurant practice ???