977 replies to this topic

[Sher.eats]

hey everyone

would you recommend beef tongue or beef cheeks sous vided? both are full of fat flavor and collagen...

If tongue should I remove the skin first (boiling for 5min?).

For either cheeks or tongue should I portion them or cook them whole (bath is big enough and has circulator)

Finally 56C for days sounds right?...

Thanks!!

Edited by Sher.eats, 14 December 2008 - 01:38 PM.

[jackal10]

Tongue and cheeks are pretty tough, and you want to mobilise the fat, so I would cook rather hotter. Keller recommends 70C/185F for 24 hours.

Tongue is usually brined, and you might want to soak in several changes of water first to remove the salt, although Keller cooks his in brine. That would make it too salt for me, but I guess its depends on how you want to serve it.

I would cook them whole, in seperate bags
It will keep in the bag, unopened for 2 weeks in the fridge

Leave the skin on and peel it when cooked and cooled to lukewarm.
If you want to eat the tongue cold, sliced or in sandwiches, trim and press it into a basin or mould, weight it and let it cool and set. The juice from the bag will jelly.

[Sher.eats]

hey jackal10, speedy reply!

tongue/cheeks cooked to 70C, the protein part will it be grey but still "smoother" then conventional stove braising? I was thinking of "med rare" cheeks/tongue a la short ribs....

Tongue brining is that for flavour or tenderizing?

Thinking about it tongue is much more fatty then cheeks and its collagen is more finely distributed compared to cheeks which does not have as much "marbling" and its collagen are in bigger lumps?

I am planning to serve the tongue or cheek as main for xmas...

[jackal10]

Tongue comes out pink, maybe because its usually a cured meat.
Its smoother because you cook it for 24 hours!

IF you are serving as a main you might want to think about presentation
While a whole tongue shaped and pressed is a fine sight, it may spook some people. Its more usually served as a cold cut, or as part of a choucroute or the like. Escoffier gives some suggestions: http://books.google....t8eAN#PPA353,M1

Keller (p 180) does Corned Beef Tongue, pain perdu, watercress leaves, horseradish mousse, oven roasted tomatoes

[nathanm]

tongue/cheeks cooked to 70C, the protein part will it be grey but still "smoother" then conventional stove braising? I was thinking of "med rare" cheeks/tongue a la short ribs....

Tongue brining is that for flavour or tenderizing?

Yes, this works - I have done cheeks at 56C - needs 48 to 72 hours. Comes out great. tongue should be similar.

Brining is to get the cured / corned beef flavor. Try it without first.

[Sher.eats]

Tongue comes out pink, maybe because its usually a cured meat.
Its smoother because you cook it for 24 hours!

IF you are serving  as a main you might want to think about presentation
While a whole tongue shaped and pressed is a fine sight, it may spook some people. Its more usually served as a cold cut, or as part of a choucroute or the like. Escoffier gives some suggestions: http://books.google....t8eAN#PPA353,M1

Keller (p 180) does Corned Beef Tongue, pain perdu, watercress leaves, horseradish mousse, oven roasted tomatoes

so if i'm not curing the tongue, cooked to 70C it will be grey...?

and you said to use 70C to "mobilize the fat" but short ribs are also quite fatty but are excellent at 55C?

haha not going to serve it whole, planning to cut inch thick medallions, cut so that if the skin of the tongue was not removed it would from the ring of the medallion, then browned in butter on presentation side. thanks for escoffier link, v. useful for deciding the sides.

finally, what makes tongue suitable for (or must be?) pre-brined compared to say short ribs? or is it a "tradition" thing?

tongue/cheeks cooked to 70C, the protein part will it be grey but still "smoother" then conventional stove braising? I was thinking of "med rare" cheeks/tongue a la short ribs....

Tongue brining is that for flavour or tenderizing?

Yes, this works - I have done cheeks at 56C - needs 48 to 72 hours. Comes out great. tongue should be similar.

Brining is to get the cured / corned beef flavor. Try it without first.

Thanks, have you tried wagyu cheeks? I've seen ones from Australia @ $5USD/100g (Hong Kong) compared to local (China) cheeks at $1USD/100g. Ultimately not a big price difference but wondering whether sous vide will equalize their differences...

Will get a tongue first thing in the morning!

[nathanm]

Waygu cheeks are fantastic - at least the ones I get in Seattle are great....

[Sher.eats]

same temp 56C even though it has higher fat content, right?

thanks!!

[nathanm]

56C for long enough - try 48 hours, but might need 72 depends on the toughness of the cheeks

[origamicrane]

Hi
I'm cooking a xmas dinner party for 20 this weekend.
Amongst other things I have a 5kg sirloin roast that i am planning to SV.

Here's what i am planning to do.
1. Jaccard the whole roast.
2. Cut it into 2 seperate 2.5kg roasts. (just to make it easier to handle)
3. Sear the exterior on top of the stove in a baking tray.
4. Then bag both seperately.
5. Into a water bath 12 hours at 55C.
6. After the cooking time, take it out and rest for 45 minutes before a final sear with a blowtorch.

Does this look ok ? any pointers?

Do you think 12 hours is adequate for the roast to tenderise a bit? or is it even too long?

I plan to add a marinade to one of the roasts 1Tbs of soya sauce, balsamic vinegar, mustard, pepper and a sprig of thyme and rosemary.
The other i might just simply season unless anyone has a recommendation/suggestions?

thanks all

Edited by origamicrane, 17 December 2008 - 04:22 PM.

[nathanm]

Do you think 12 hours is adequate for the roast to tenderise a bit? or is it even too long?

depends on your meat - if it is very tender, then yes that is too long. Sirloin is probably tough enough that it will be OK, but you are taking a risk on that much meat - trying a sample first would let you know for sure...

Jaccard-ing it first probably means you should reduce the time, but it depends on the meat and how tender you like it.

[origamicrane]

thanks nathan
i'll pull one at 8hrs and see how it is doing, i will rebag and continue if required.

[e_monster]

Has anyone sous-vided a cross-rib roast? I am wondering if a 48 hr 135F cook might work wonders on this cheap cut as it does on short ribs?

Thoughts?

[zEli173]

One afternoon last week I landed at the butcher without a plan for dinner. I looked through his meat case and decided I would take home a partial slab of pork spare ribs and try my hand at them in the sous vide set up for the first time. This was a full spare rib cut with the rib tips attached, but I had the butcher trim off the tips to turn it into a St. Louis cut with the tips separate.

By the time I got home I only had a few hours before dinner and consulting cameo chef's table in post #2237 I saw that I didn't have nearly enough time to cook as recommended. I expected this but pushed on anyway. I divided into three portions: Four bones with a single tip; four more bones; and the remaining tips.

I gave each portion a generous sprinkling of bbq rub, set the bath for 178 degrees, and let them go for about 3.5 hours. At the end of that time I took out the bag with the single tip, drained off the liquid, patted dry, applied more rub and put them under the broiler. I broiled on each side for less than five minutes. Then I basted the ribs with bbq sauce and put them back under the broiler for a few minutes on each side.

Results were right about what I expected, which was to say pretty darn good. The meat had tenderized a good amount, there was no amount of unwelcome chew. A little more tender and they'd be in what I'd consider a sweet spot if I were having true barbecued ribs. The fat melted part way, I prefer a little more fat melting, but this was acceptable. The double broiling finishing method left me with both a crispy, flavorful meat exterior and a sticky caramelized sauce layer.

I left the other two portion in the water at 178 for the next couple hours, then I turned the temp down to 170 for the overnight. When all was said and done they had 6-7 hours at 178 and anther ten hours at 170. When finished I cooled them rapidly and stuck them in the fridge.

Earlier this week I had the second portion of ribs, finished the same way. The results here were truly outstanding. The fat melted pretty thoroughly but still just a perfect amount was left behind. The meat was super tender, falling off the bone, but no trace of mush. Ideally I'd have the meat just slightly less tender so it clings to the bone but comes off with little resistance. And again, the finishing method worked great.

Tonight I had the rib tips. These were still good, but not up to par with either batch of ribs. That's probably because ribs tips just aren't as good as the ribs themselves, but next time I might go a little less time with this cut to see if the results improve.

All in all a very successful experiment. I am really looking forward to next time and trying some flavor ideas beyond just bbq. However, I'm by no means abandoning bbq -- has anyone tried giving pork a pre-sous vide smoke in a table top smoker box.

[KendallCollege]

That was part of the procedure that I developed at the last restaurant that I worked at.

Brined...
24 hours w/kosher salt/brown sugar/chamomile tea/lapsang souchong tea/juniper berries/star anise

Smoked...
62C for 90 minutes w/local apple tree woodchips/chamomile tea/lapsang souchong tea...pulled and chilled

Sous vide...
portioned, packed, and cooked at 68C for 14 hours

The bags were chilled afterward and were kept at serving temp during service. The order came in, the bag was cut, a portion was sliced, and the pig was thrown into an iron pan to crisp.

::sigh::

Another Pork Belly approach.

Cheers.

-tw-

[KennethT]

I love doing a pre-SV smoke for doing BBQ.... works great for ribs.... the other weekend, I did a SV version of cochinita pibil after watching Rick Bayless do it in a pit in the ground... since I don't have any ground, or a pit, I figured doing it SV was the next best thing...

Took 2 pounds of boneless pork shoulder and coated with achiote/lime juice marinade... then wrap in banana leaves, and smoked (in stovetop smoker) over a combo of hickory and oak for about 30 minutes - in hindsight, I might smoke it a little longer next time...

Then into the bag, and into teh 180F waterbath... I think I left it in there for about 8 hours, but I'd have to check my notes to be sure....

When finished, I pulled it and it was really nice - super tender, but not mush, with a suble smoke flavor, and subtle flavor from the banana leaves, and a lot of the fat rendered out... Then I reduced the liquid in the bag (pork juices, achiote marinade and some fat), and poured over the pulled pork and let it sit in the warming oven until my tortillas were ready...

Put that in a corn tortilla with some pickled onions and some habanero salsa... heaven...

[jackal10]

Oh experts, pray tell me how long for a boneless ham, about 5kg?
I'm guessing 60C for 12hours or so.
SInce its Xmas I will add apple juice and cloves...

Edited by jackal10, 19 December 2008 - 08:52 AM.

[zEli173]

I love doing a pre-SV smoke for doing BBQ.... works great for ribs....  the other weekend, I did a SV version of cochinita pibil after watching Rick Bayless do it in a pit in the ground... since I don't have any ground, or a pit, I figured doing it SV was the next best thing... 

Took 2 pounds of boneless pork shoulder and coated with achiote/lime juice marinade... then wrap in banana leaves, and smoked (in stovetop smoker) over a combo of hickory and oak for about 30 minutes - in hindsight, I might smoke it a little longer next time...

Then into the bag, and into teh 180F waterbath... I think I left it in there for about 8 hours, but I'd have to check my notes to be sure....

When finished, I pulled it and it was really nice - super tender, but not mush, with a suble smoke flavor, and subtle flavor from the banana leaves, and a lot of the fat rendered out...  Then I reduced the liquid in the bag (pork juices, achiote marinade and some fat), and poured over the pulled pork and let it sit in the warming oven until my tortillas were ready...

Put that in a corn tortilla with some pickled onions and some habanero salsa... heaven...

I've seen that episode with the cochinita pibil. Looks damn good.

Well, I don't actually have a stovetop smoker but I figure it's not hard to rig something up with some foil and a rack or two.

[KennethT]

Before investing in the stovetop smoker, I used to do it in a wok with a rack and some aluminum foil.... not hard to set up, but once I started doing it enough, I figured it was good to invest in the real thing... What I did was put the shavings in the bottom of the wok (line the bottom with alum. foil first or your wok will turn black) then cover with another piece of aluminum foil... put the rack above that to hold what's being smoked (ie the pork) then cover the whole thing with a foil tent... my stovetop smoker company (Cameron's) recommends using a burner of 5-6 - it starts smoking in about 5 minutes...

[mjc]

I'm planning on cooking 10lbs of wagyu beef brisket in the next couple of days. It seems that most people here have had a better experience cooking their briskets for 48 hours at 135F rather than the 147F that Keller uses. But for Keller's briskets, he uses Wagyu beef and I don't think anyone else here has tried that yet.

So do you think I should go with 135 or 147? Do you think the type of beef will make a difference?

Also, should I do any marinade or rub first?

Thanks for your help.

[dougal]

Oh experts, pray tell me how long for a boneless ham, about 5kg?
I'm guessing 60C for 12hours or so.
SInce its Xmas I will add apple juice and cloves...

I'm no expert, but I'd have thought a touch higher, maybe 63/65. (That's the sort of core peak temperature I shoot for when conventionally poaching an, admittedly rather smaller, bit of cured ham.)
Since you are cooking to equilibrium temperature and its not going to be "overcooked", I'd expect that longer wouldn't hurt - probably just render the collagen more thoroughly? Also, since he's likely a big lump compared to the size of your bath, he's going to chill the bath when he goes in, probably for some while.
Maybe worth remarking that the minimum time to attain equilibrium temperature is going to be determined by the starting temperature. The uplift from fridge temperature is half as much again as the uplift from room temperature.
There's one school of thought that the bone improves heat conduction - though I'm not sure whether this is due to the bone itself, the marrow or the bone/meat interface. Anyway, the result is that boneless would mean longer cooking.
My guess would be that 24 hours wouldn't hurt since you are going to equilibrium.

I think I'd be a bit cautious with cloves in the bag. I find them very pervasive in ordinary cooking, and suspect that long sv might enhance that property!
Isn't it more usual to stud them into the fat after skinning and before glazing the thing? And for Christmas, wouldn't some Cinnamon, Allspice, Nutmeg, Ginger, Star Anise and even Peppers add some pleasant notes?
How would dry cider and/or bramley apple sauce do in the bag with or instead of the apple juice?
Are you going to put some onion, celery and/or other herbal aromatics in the bag?

Watching Nigella on BBCtv the other night, I was a bit astonished at the anise-heavy brew she came up with for her spiced ham poaching liquor. But the smoked paprika in the glaze sounded a nice touch ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk...ham_84672.shtml

[chennemann]

I am doing turkey sous vide for Christmas. I was considering the following:

140 degrees for the white meat 3 hours.
150 degrees for the dark meat 12 hours. (Would longer be better to make the meat tender?).

Are these times/temperature OK?

Thanks,
Chuck

[jackal10]

Too hot.
135F for 12 hours for both. Sear before and after.

[NY_Amateur]

my understanding was that 141f was the minimum safe temperature that you could cook any poultry to (with proper times allowing for the appropriate 5D/6D reduction in salmonella).

that being said I would cook the white meat at 140/141 and confit the legs.

[slkinsey]

135F/57C is significantly below the temperature that most people feel is the lowest you can go for "just done" breast meat in poultry. Most people are happier with at least 60.5C/141F for breast meat, and this temperature is likely to seem undercooked for leg meat.

As for the times, 12 hours seems excessive. All that is needed for pasteurization at 60.5C is around 5 hours, and even at the lower temperature Jack proposes, 6.5 hours would be sufficient for pasteurization of a piece as thick as 70 mm. While the leg meat may derive some benefit from longer cooking (although not at either 57C or 60.5C, in my opinion), this is not so with respect to the breast meat.

Chuck, your proposed temperatures and timings seem about right to me. You may want to go longer with the breast meat to get pasteurization, depending on how thick it is. The temperature of the leg meat will depend on the effect you desire. Do yourself a favor and read or search through this thread. You will find plenty of information on cooking turkey.

[e_monster]

Your information is incorrect. There is a link somewhere in this thread to the FDA guidelines. 135F for a sufficient time is sufficient for pasteurization of poultry. The time at 141F is much shorter than at 135F.

Too hot.
135F for 12 hours for both. Sear before and after.

my understanding was that 141f was the minimum safe temperature that you could cook any poultry to (with proper times allowing for the appropriate 5D/6D reduction in salmonella).

that being said I would cook the white meat at 140/141 and confit the legs.

[DouglasBaldwin]

Chuck, your times and temperatures are in the right ball park. I actually detailed how I was going to prepare my families turkey up thread in post #2129; since I picked up an organic free-range turkey, I skipped the brining steps; I also left the skin on the breast and crisped it (and the dark meat) in a pan with oil at 350F/180C; for the gravy, see post #2197.

While it is true that you can pasteurize poultry at 136F/57.5C (see Tables 4.7 and C.11 in my guide), most people find the color and texture disturbing. Meat and poultry is the most tender around 140F/60C because that is when the sarcoplasmic proteins finish aggregating/gelling and before the muscle fibers have started to shrink longitudinally (and squeeze out the moisture).

Sam is quite right that even 140F/60C is a bit low for dark meat --- I typically cook my legs and thighs at either 155F/68C for 24 hours or 176F/80C for 8--10 hours (often after brining and with a couple tablespoons of rendered fat in the bag).

[chennemann]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

I think I am set on the white meat. It came out great last time I did it. The dark meat didn't, so that was my main concern.

My plan was to use a little butter or duck fat(never used duck fat before) if I can find it for the dark meat, along with some (sage, thyme, pepper). I will brine the meat.

Would I be better off going with 155F 24 hours or 176F for 8-10? I tried doing 176F with vegetable oil last year and didn't care for the results. I didn't like the flavor of the vegetable oil and it was not as juicy as I would like. The goal is for it to be juicy and fall off the bone tender.

Thanks again for the help,
Chuck

[Scout_21]

This topic is amazing...

I've spent some free time to past 2-3 days to pour over all of the information contained here. I cannot wait to buy nathanm's book when it comes out. If there's a list for autographed copies I'd love to be included.

I originally bought an immersion circulator for a well controlled water bath to hold tempered chocolate but now that will take a back seat to all of the sous vide cooking that will be coming to my kitchen.

Many thanks to everyone who has contributed to vast wealth of sous vide knowledge.

Cheers

[tkassum]

This is a question that I think has been addressed to some extent over the course of the thread but I'd love to get some specific thoughts on something I'm cooking.

I've been experimenting with SV for a few months now. I have had some great results and have found some things I wouldn't do again.

As we speak I am SVing duck legs confit in preparation for a holiday meal tonight. Plan is to go 8 hours at 180 degrees F. My question is the following: when I put the legs in the bath, the temperature dropped to 160 and, an hour later, has only crept back to 172. Do I start my 8 hours from the initial immersion, or from the time we are at 180?

Equipment: Auber PID, Euro-Pro Crock Pot. I need to cultivate my scientist friends in order to procure a real immersion circulator.

Thanks