977 replies to this topic

[pounce]

...but have you compared that PID device and a circulator side-by-side?

Yes, with proper circulation there is very little difference. Once you realize that a lab unit is pretty much just a heater/pid/circulator as a single unit it's not much of a mental jump to compare the two.

[origamicrane]

Hi
I've been reading this thread with great interest and have just made a great SV fillet steak and a duck confit using a pot and an an induction hob.
This setup works well but I do get a +/- 2C temperature fluctation.

I was wondering instead of getting lab equipment is there any reason why I couldn't use a conventional bain marie?
Nisbets has a cheap buffalo one for about £100 that has a temperature control of 50-90C seems like a good and cheap method of doing sous vide without the expensive lab equipment or the fiddling with pid and rice cookers?

link to bain marie

I know that the bain marie isn't stirred and there might be some temperature fluctuations /gradients but has anyone got a electric bain marie and tested to see how much the temp actually fluctates by?

thanks in advance

[pounce]

I was wondering instead of getting lab equipment is there any reason why I couldn't use a conventional bain marie?

See my setup up thread.

http://forums.egulle...dpost&p=1517668

Sure you can use it, but you may get more fluctuation than your induction hob.

The bain marie plus PID and some means of circulation works pretty well. I'd say get the bain marie and try it. If it/s not enough control add the PID. You really can't go wrong since a bain marie can be pretty useful on it's own.

[Digijam]

Yes, I'm actually wondering specifically about fat instead of collagen.  Through experience I know that 55C for a long enough period of time will soften the collagen in tough cuts enough to tenderize the meat, but they still remain fatty because the fat is not rendering.

Fats are pretty horribly complex. Animal fats melt across a temperature range, and fat composition and therefore melting characteristics will even vary between different parts of the same animal (subcutaneous fat melts at a different point to pereneal fat, for example). The fat between male and females in the same breed can vary, and diet as well as breeding can make a huge difference - as with Wagyu beef and iberico ham.

The family of saturated fats is the one with the higher melting points - ranging from Undecylic acid with a 30C melt point through to acids like Montanic and Melissic with 90-93C melting points. But for sous vide cooking the only three to worry about are stearic, palmitic and myristic - which melt at 70C, 63C, and 54C, respectively. Beef and sheep fats are obviously harder than pork and poultry fats - and in fact beef has around 19-22% stearic acid as part of its total fat content, wheareas pork typically has about 13%.

So there's no easy graph to work with. But to fully render any fatty cut, setting the dial around 70C should do the trick, or set it a little lower to retain more wobble. The proteins denature pretty heavily at this sort of temperature, but all that lovely grease should keep the meat tasting tender and moist.

[dougal]

Yes, I'm actually wondering specifically about fat instead of collagen.  Through experience I know that 55C for a long enough period of time will soften the collagen in tough cuts enough to tenderize the meat, but they still remain fatty because the fat is not rendering.

Sealed in a bag, I wouldn't expect you'd be having much fat drain out of the meat.
At best, it'll be sitting in a puddle of melted fat, won't it?

Is sv a good idea for fatty cuts?

[syoung68]

Does anyone have any firm information for temperatures at which fat begins to render?  I find that when I'm cooking fatty cuts of meat like short ribs at 55C, they remain quite fatty, even after 72 hours.  If I could melt away a lot more of the fat at a slightly higher temp, that would be a worthwhile trade-off.

Are there different rendering temps for different animal fats?

I fully understand your dilemma, when I SVd short ribs at 140*F for 36 hours, I did get a lovely medium rare and a texture like that of steak, but the layers of fat were still there. The ribs were interesting - and tasty, but I have to say that I (and most of my guests) prefer a braised short rib over the SV version.

I know you can do SV at braise temps and I have confited duck and chicken that way, but for something like short ribs where I want all that delicious broth, a traditional braise makes more sense to me. If I were in a professional kitchen where I needed to do single portions, it would be different. Of course, this does not mean I will not try short ribs SV at 170*F.

Sealed in a bag, I wouldn't expect you'd be having much fat drain out of the meat.
At best, it'll be sitting in a puddle of melted fat, won't it?

I am not worried about the fat in with the food, it is more about the layer of fat when you take a bite of the rib.

[MikeTMD]

Duly noted, but have you compared that PID device and a circulator side-by-side?

No, but it is not relevant. I am not saying that I get identical performance to lab equipment (as I mentioned in my earlier post). I am simply saying that I get very good performance and can cook delectable food.

Not everyone can afford to have the absolute best equipment -- but one does not need the absolute best to get great results.

The issue here is not the best equipment, but the RIGHT equipment. You need full vacuum, constant temperature (even 1-2 degree fluctuation makes a difference) and constant circulation. Otherwise, results are simply not the same - in my experience, anyway.

[alwang]

Thanks to all for the info: I'm tempted to do a more controlled experiment with cooking short ribs at a range of temperatures to find an optimum compromise between melting of fat and maintaining a medium-rare texture, but if I do so I'm afraid my cardiologist will likely refuse me as a patient. ;)

[pounce]

The issue here is not the best equipment, but the RIGHT equipment. You need full vacuum, constant temperature (even 1-2 degree fluctuation makes a difference) and constant circulation. Otherwise, results are simply not the same - in my experience, anyway.

You don't need full vacuum. You just want to remove the air or other gas. It's not required. Things still cook with air in them. You do want a seal, but it's been proven up thread that wrapping some fish or similar in plastic wrap or slipped in a ziplock works too.

Only a few thing things and approaches are sensitive to 1-2 degree fluctuations. Short cooking times and tricky things like eggs etc.

Circulation is good, but constant circulation is not needed. If your item is at temp and your bath is insulated or otherwise does not dramatically drop in temp in blocks of time there isn't a need for circulation. It can be switched on and off. Circulation is good for short times or when trying to bring an item to temp as fast as possible. Yes, constant circulation can help in keeping all outside surfaces of the item in the bath at relatively the same temp.

Out of curiosity, have you tried using methods other than lab equipment?

I don't want people to think they cant get good results with "over the counter" products. I own both lab and non-lab equipment and have tested both. A PID like the auber unit *will* get you the exact or very close to the same results as a lab unit if you pick a good heat source and are creative with circulation.

If it sounds like I am calling you out a little... it's because I am ;)

[e_monster]

I don't want people to think they cant get good results with "over the counter" products. I own both lab and non-lab equipment and have tested both. A PID like the auber unit *will* get you the exact or very close to the same results as a lab unit if you pick a good heat source and are creative with circulation.

I agree 100%. The discussion reminds me a bit of a discussion on a coffee roasting list to which I used to subscribe. There were people that would act as if one could not pull a decent shot of espresso with any machine that cost less than $1500 -- and would act as if a Rancilio Silvia (a decent inexpensive pump machine that while finicky can create great shots) was no better than a steam machine -- which is plain wrong.

MikeTMD, come on man, just because one can tell the difference between SOME items cooked with lab-gear and that cooked with an Auber setup that does not mean that an Auber setup is not a decent way to go. I content that it is the RIGHT equipment and does a much better than adequate job for a wide variety of applications.

Just because there might be "a difference" does not mean that the other gear is not appropriate. Quite a few people on this list are cooking great sous-vide food without an immersion-circulator.

One can tell the difference between food cooked in a $3000 commercial oven and that cooked in most home ovens, but it doesn't mean that very good food can't be cooked in a home oven.

A foodie friend of mine that has recently eaten at some very expensive restaurants that do sous-vide has been consistently impressed with the results I am getting with my budget sous-vide set-up.

If I had the money to burn, I would get higher-end equipment, but that doesn't make the equipment I am using a waste of time. Some people get scared off sous-vide by the notion that they need to get expensive equipment to get started, and I think it is a shame.

Anyway that is my opinion.

[MikeTMD]

The issue here is not the best equipment, but the RIGHT equipment. You need full vacuum, constant temperature (even 1-2 degree fluctuation makes a difference) and constant circulation. Otherwise, results are simply not the same - in my experience, anyway.

You don't need full vacuum. You just want to remove the air or other gas. It's not required. Things still cook with air in them. You do want a seal, but it's been proven up thread that wrapping some fish or similar in plastic wrap or slipped in a ziplock works too.

Only a few thing things and approaches are sensitive to 1-2 degree fluctuations. Short cooking times and tricky things like eggs etc.

Circulation is good, but constant circulation is not needed. If your item is at temp and your bath is insulated or otherwise does not dramatically drop in temp in blocks of time there isn't a need for circulation. It can be switched on and off. Circulation is good for short times or when trying to bring an item to temp as fast as possible. Yes, constant circulation can help in keeping all outside surfaces of the item in the bath at relatively the same temp.

Out of curiosity, have you tried using methods other than lab equipment?

I don't want people to think they cant get good results with "over the counter" products. I own both lab and non-lab equipment and have tested both. A PID like the auber unit *will* get you the exact or very close to the same results as a lab unit if you pick a good heat source and are creative with circulation.

If it sounds like I am calling you out a little... it's because I am ;)

Very well, then. Your challenge is accepted.

First, and foremost: vacuum in SV is essential. The whole point of SV cooking is to eliminate oxygen, and, as such prevent reaction of oxidation, which dramatically affects color (esp. when you are cooking veggies) and taste ( esp. when you are dealing with fatty proteins). But, good luck cooking fish wrapped in plastic...

Also, you absolutely do need a seal - paramount concern here is to prevent bacteria-rich cooking liquid from getting into your vacuum bag, especially if you are cooking for an extended period of time.

Second point is temperature. If I may, this is an exact quote Roca/Brugues (those two fellas kindda know what they are talking about, it seems like... ): "... the power comes from the vacuum, but the control lies in a mastery of time and temperature-this is what leads to the prime objective, precise cooking values for each ingredient." ( "Sous-Vide Cuisine", Montagud Editores, 2007, p. 86)

The idea here is precision. If you allow cooking temps to fluctuate, at some point the internal temp is going to get away from you desired range - imagine rocking a boat: if you did it, would you be able to stop it at once? If memory serves right, nathanm made a similar observation in his early posts.

Third point is circulation. If your water doesn't circulate, then you are going to have different temps in different areas of your cooking vessel, which brings me back to the point of precision. Here is another quote: '... maximum variation of + 1C/1.8F, which is an acceptable margin for sous-vide cooking." ( "Sous-Vide Cuisine", Montagud Editores, 2007, p. 95)

Much like I said, Roca/Bruges know and understand the SV process well. Wish it was the case with you, my dear pounce and e_monster...

FYI, I did try methods "other than lab equipment", from poaching in oil to autoclaves. I am not saying there is only one answer, but rather suggest to do things right, or not at all.

Edited by MikeTMD, 23 January 2008 - 08:30 PM.

[e_monster]

I am posting because I don't want newbies to get the impression that one needs a laboratory immersion heater/circulator or lab bath to create delicious sous vide meals. (Don't get me wrong, if you can afford it, go for it -- but you can create some great sous-vide without it).

Third point is circulation. If your water doesn't circulate, then you are going to have different temps in different areas of your cooking vessel, which brings me back to the point of precision. Here is another quote: '... maximum variation of + 1C/1.8F, which is an acceptable margin for sous-vide cooking." ( "Sous-Vide Cuisine", Montagud Editores, 2007, p. 95)

Much like I said, Roca/Bruges know and understand the SV process well. Wish it was the case with you, my dear pounce and e_monster...

FYI, I did try methods "other than lab equipment", from poaching in oil to autoclaves.  I am not saying there is only one answer,  but rather suggest to do things right, or not at all.

The specs you mention (or specs very close to them) are attainable with the Auber units. With an $8 aquarium pump, you can get adequate circulation (as at least one other person has mentioned). And in some situations even that isn't needed as natural convection will often cause temperatures to be evenly distributed in the vessel and equalize fairly quickly. The Auber units control things tightly enough that eggs at 145F consistently turn out the similarly and are consistently different from 147F eggs (which remain self-consistent as well).

Your judgment of what is "right" seems fairly doctrinal and binary. You talk about having tried a number of techniques that failed. Since none of the equipment you mentioned is even similar to the equipment you are disparaging, I don't think that you are really in a position to judge.

Based on the smiles at the table and the requests for second helpings when I have served the food is adequate proof to me that such a setup can create delectable food.

As I have mentioned previously, stringent temperature control is absolutely necessary for some recipes but not all. I wouldn't do a 36 hour brisket with something less stable than an Auber (or better controller) or salmon mi cuit.

But there are a great many other recipes, where a swing of a few degrees F can still result in excellent meals that will be appreciated by very discerning diners (based on actual experience).

You keep implying that a discernible difference in food created with different setups makes it pointless to use the "lesser" of the two setups. But that is silly, if the lesser setup creates 4 star food as opposed to 5 star food, that will be acceptable as a starter system for a great many cooks (even demanding ones).

[pounce]

Much like I said, Roca/Bruges know and understand the SV process well. Wish it was the case with you, my dear pounce and e_monster...

Stooping to an ad hominem arguement here? Sort of cheating, no? ;)

I am not saying there is only one answer,  but rather suggest to do things right, or not at all.

This is a little contradictory. This thread is loaded with posts describing how people have been successful with the approach. Maybe you need to define "Right" so we understand you better.

I appreciate that you bought a lab bath, an expensive book and have poured over its pages. It's exciting stuff. You can see from the amount of input in this thread how much I enjoy SV. I am however a little puzzled why you feel you need to jump in and tell hundreds of people they are wrong in what they are doing.

Vacuum is not required. Like I said you just want to remove the air or gas. You do not need a vacuum for this. There are other techniques. Do you own a chamber vacuum sealer with gas flush?

You don't need a hermetic seal. You probably know this from poaching in oil. You can cook things in plastic wrap. It's a fact. Read up thread. Do I use a sealer? yes.

A temp fluctuation of one degree is not going to dramatically effect a 48 hour cook time. I appreciate the science aspect of SV and I do like things to be precise, but there is a little fuzzy factor in practice. It's good to be precise in a book. Its gives a base on which to be creative or deviate from for the Art in Culinary Arts.

Can you tell us the make and model of your immersion unit?

[MikeHartnett]

I would just like to put something out there...


I've recently cooked a pork tenderloin "sous vide" by wrapping it in plastic wrap and trying to keep a constant temp in a stock pot a la Michel Richard. While the results may not be scientific quality, it certainly shows that you can get fantastic results without ANY sous vide-specific equipment. I don't know a whole lot about the science behind sous vide, but I can tell you that for certain circumstances, it's not a big deal to lack vacuum, hermetic seal, circulation, or even strict temperature regulation. I wish I had photos to prove this, but I got perfectly acceptable color and delicious taste with no setup.

[origamicrane]

think we are splitting hairs here.

horses for courses

If you are SViding on very regular basis or on a large or commercial level or doing very long cook times then invest in an immersion circulator.

But if you are at home, cooking for your family and friends, I think it would be hard to justify the expenditure unless you got money to burn.

I'm sure there are lots of us out here using pid or induction hobs, etc.
that are turning out perfectly good food that you would be very hard pressed to differentiate from food cooked using lab equipment.

Proof is in the eating.

If you are adamant that you would not be able to do SV without the lab equipment then so be it but seems that might be stiffling creativity?

For instance I am using an induction hob and and a Galtek shuttle chef (thermos pot) and getting excellent results.

of course excellent is a subjective thing
so all IMHO

but i have a haake c10 IC ordered
so hopefully I can do some tests next weekend
if i do i will post my results.

Edited by origamicrane, 24 January 2008 - 08:12 AM.

[Blamo]

Throughout 14 episodes of Top Chef season 3, Hung employed crude sous vide methods, using stove top burner, what looks to be an analog candy thermometer, and possibly without vacuum. His food amazed the judges, which eventually led him to win season 3. He used sous vide and spoke of sous vide so often that the editors of Top Chef season 3 pieced together a segment of Hung saying "sous vide" countless times in jest.

[TheSwede]

I think he used a Food Saver for the duck breast (ie sort-of-vacum) in the finale, but otherwise it was a stock pot and a candy thermometer. I think one comment he got on the duck breast was "three star food"", perhaps even from Eric Ripert?

[jduncan81]

First, and foremost: vacuum in SV is essential. The whole point of SV cooking is to eliminate oxygen, and, as such prevent reaction of oxidation, which dramatically affects color (esp. when you are cooking veggies) and taste ( esp. when you are dealing with fatty proteins). But, good luck cooking fish wrapped in plastic...

And a foodsaver doesn't vacuum? Nothing wrong with typical home setups here.

Also, you absolutely do need a seal - paramount concern here is to prevent bacteria-rich cooking liquid from getting into your vacuum bag, especially if you are cooking for an extended period of time.

Again, why doesn't the foodsaver seal?

Second point is temperature. If I may, this is an exact quote Roca/Brugues (those two fellas kindda know what they are talking about, it seems like... biggrin.gif ): "... the power comes from the vacuum, but the control lies in a mastery of time and temperature-this is what leads to the prime objective, precise cooking values for each ingredient." ( "Sous-Vide Cuisine", Montagud Editores, 2007, p. 86)

The idea here is precision. If you allow cooking temps to fluctuate, at some point the internal temp is going to get away from you desired range - imagine rocking a boat: if you did it, would you be able to stop it at once? If memory serves right, nathanm made a similar observation in his early posts.

Third point is circulation. If your water doesn't circulate, then you are going to have different temps in different areas of your cooking vessel, which brings me back to the point of precision. Here is another quote: '... maximum variation of + 1C/1.8F, which is an acceptable margin for sous-vide cooking." ( "
Sous-Vide Cuisine", Montagud Editores, 2007, p. 95)

I don't have a circulator in my setup, however I get less than 1F temperature variation simply using the Auber and the Commercial Pro 25 cup rice cooker (after it has come to temp). Unless you really need it to be dead on in a very short period of time or have a less "ideal" container, even circulation isn't necessary.

Why again do I need a $900+ immersion circulator?

[mtigges]

You absolutely do NOT need a circulator. The reason circulators are used in labs is because they're putting a couple dozen vials in what amounts to a hotel pan and the heater is a coil off in the corner. Since the surface area of the water is so great making it easy for it to cool. Since the heat is not being applied homogenously underneath the pan it means without circulation you have to rely on conduction to transfer the heat. Not good enough when you need 0.5F temp differential throughout the water.

In home situations where you are using a crock pot, or a kettle, or a homemade bucket with an element installed near the bottom you have two things going for you. A high insulating vessel and convection to transfer the heat.

You do not need a circulator. You don't even need a PID. A thermostat will do as long as you can program it to within a degree or two.

[Mallet]

I don't have a circulator in my setup, however I get less than 1F temperature variation simply using the Auber and the Commercial Pro 25 cup rice cooker (after it has come to temp). Unless you really need it to be dead on in a very short period of time or have a less "ideal" container, even circulation isn't necessary.

Why again do I need a $900+ immersion circulator?

Are you using the display from the Auber unit as your measure or are you measuring the temperature at different points in your pot independently? If not, while I do believe you can acheive 1F stability at the probe, I somewhat doubt that the actual range of variation throughout the rice is less than 1F without circulation.

[jduncan81]

Are you using the display from the Auber unit as your measure or are you measuring the temperature at different points in your pot independently? If not, while I do believe you can acheive 1F stability at the probe, I somewhat doubt that the actual range of variation throughout the rice is less than 1F without circulation.

I'm reading the display, but this is while moving it and holding it in different places in the rice cooker. If I'm just looking at one point, it *never* changes value once settled.

[slkinsey]

I don't quite recall where it was posted (not in this thread), but at least one person using the Auber/rice cooker combination reported very good stability throughout the water bath when nothing was in there, but once the food was added and various parts of the bath were sampled with a separate thermometer, there was temperature variation on the order of several degrees.

Whether or not this is important to someone is a matter of personal preference. Fundamentally we're talking about (usually) wrapping food in an impermeable covering of some kind, sucking (some/most of) the air out of the covering and then cooking it at a (reasonably) precise temperature. Each one of these variables is associated with a certain cost, and also with a certain range of possible effects. It is, of course, possible to make "sous vide-style" (I would argue that it's not properly called "sous vide" without any "vide") using a stock pot over a conventional gas burner, lots of plastic wrap and a thermometer. One can, and plenty of people have, obtain very tasty results this way. On the other hand, there is a certain amount of control, and a range of effects that are available to the cook using a precision recirculating water bath and a chamber vacuum that are not available to the guy using the stock pot and thermometer. In between those two extremes there exists a variety of different price points and associated ranges of possible effects. One simply has to choose. Fundamentally this is not that different from choosing conventional cookware: It is perfectly possible to create an amazing dish using a $10 thin stainless steel pan. You don't need a $200 stainless-lined heavy copper pan. But the $200 pan is capable of doing some things that the $10 pan cannot do, and it offers greater reliability and predictability.

I think the Auber PID/rice cooker combination is a great solution for those who don't mind spending $150 on a setup but aren't comfortable with snagging a circulator off eBay for $400 or more. It's ridiculous to say that sous vide cooking isn't possible with this setup. At the same time, it's not correct to say that the PID/rice cooker setup offers the same range of effects, reliability, predictability and flexibility as using a precision recirculating water bath heater. But, so long as the rig you have allows you to do all the things you want to do within your price point, and you're happy with it -- who cares?

[Anna N]

I am using the Auber and a rice cooker and I HAVE sampled the temps including surface temp using a probe thermometer and they do not vary by more than a fraction of a degree. I am not a scientist nor do I have scientific equipment but that was my finding . I checked over many hours and over short times and the temperature remained stable.

[slkinsey]

Here's the post I was thinking of:

As an experiment (until the immersion circulator I won on eBay arrives), I have set up a 6-quart crock-pot (on low heat) with a PID controller and let it stabilize at 141°F.  I then put in a single thawed (vacuum packed) chicken breast.  The temperature reading on the PID stayed nice and steady the whole time. 

After one hour I checked the water temperature with my favorite thermapen, and found that the temperature ranged from 136°F to 141°F.  The 141°F, of course, was at the temperature probe of the PID (on the bottom of the crockpot) and the 136°F was near the surface in the center of the pot. 

At least in my crockpot, the food seemed to really hamper the normal convection currents in the pot.  Before I put in any food, the water temperature varied by less than 1°F when I measured it at various points with my thermapen.

[origamicrane]

I've been looking around online for Immesion Circulators unit in the UK.

thought this might be helpful to uk egulleteers

There are a several lab suppliers that sell new IC unit
http://www.fisher.co.uk
http://www.coleparmer.co.uk
http://www.cliftonfoodrange.co.uk/
http://www.cuisinete...irculators.html
http://www.julabo-so...m/products1.htm
http://www.julabo.de/session_uk.asp
http://ecomcat.jenco...asp?sat=2&saa=3
http://www.camlab.co.uk/
http://www.grantsous...m/checkout.aspx

the cheapest new IC unit I found was a Haake C10 at £496 from Fisher
https://extranet.fis...tSetPosition=14

You could try Ebay where I got a cheap new C10
or i also found this site for used scientific equipment website.

www.thebranfordgroup.com

They actually got a lot of waterbaths and IC units on the Syngenta auction ending next month.
Some of the photos of the equipment look pretty crudey!! but there were a few IC and water bath units that looks reasonably clean and new.

if anyone else knows of a cheaper new IC unit please let me know :)

[MikeTMD]

Vacuum is not required. Like I said you just want to remove the air or gas. You do not need a vacuum for this. There are other techniques. Do you own a chamber vacuum sealer with gas flush?

You don't need a hermetic seal. You probably know this from poaching in oil. You can cook things in plastic wrap. It's a fact. Read up thread. Do I use a sealer? yes.

A temp fluctuation of one degree is not going to dramatically effect a 48 hour cook time. I appreciate the science aspect of SV and I do like things to be precise, but there is a little fuzzy factor in practice. It's good to be precise in a book. Its gives a base on which to be creative or deviate from for the Art in Culinary Arts.

OK, allow me to retort...

Vacuum is not required in SV cooking. And, ice is not required for ice skating. :-)

My dear pounce, saying something over and over doesn't make it right, no matter how many times you've repeated it.

Would you please explain to us WHY vacuum in SV doesn't matter? And, what other gas besides oxygen are you trying to remove from your cooking bag?

Again, vacuum (the "vide") in Sous-vide is essential. You need to remove oxygen to prevent food from spoiling, changing color and more than anything - preserving taste. Some cooks are able to fill their bags with non-reactive gas, but that goes well beyond home and restaurant cooking, and remains the prerogative of industrial production.

As far as sealing/cooking in plastic wrap: if you don't have a seal, and soak meat in warm water for hours at a time - you will have achieved a successful bacterial multiplication. Enjoy your adventure in food poisoning! If you are cooking fish, yes - the time/bacterial load are not large enough to develop, but shellfish may be a different story, and meat will spoil in just a few hours. You use a sealer yourself, so why are you trying to argue the seal issue?

FYI, I don't own a vacuum chamber - the least expensive unit I saw was $1900 - well beyond of what I am willing to spend right now, but I will invest in one of those some day, mostly for cured meat/sausage making, as well as SV.

Temperature issue comes down to what kind of consistency you are trying to achieve: it may be more important in a restaurant set-up, than at home.

We are all here to learn form each other, and any information is important, and any opinion is welcome. It's not about who is better, but how to do the best we can. That having been said, one needs a proper wok and sufficient heat to stir fry, exact measurements for baking, and the right equipment to SV. Don't you agree?

I don't want to end up in the proverbial land where any poaching is called "sous-vide", but rather aim to preserve and develop the art of that approach to cooking. Some may disagree... Well, those same people would most likely mix powdered wasabi with soy sauce and pour it over overcooked fish and call it a great sushi experience. I just hope it's not you.

Edited by MikeTMD, 25 January 2008 - 01:01 PM.

[pounce]

My dear pounce, saying something over and over doesn't make it right, no matter how many times you've repeated it.

Would you please explain to us WHY vacuum in SV doesn't matter? And, what other gas besides oxygen are you trying to remove from your cooking bag?

Do you think you have any other pressure than your existing atmospheric pressure on the bag once it's sealed? You have only removed the air or anything else that escaped. I think there is a common misconception about SV and whether there is any vacuum in the bag after it's been sealed.

As far as sealing/cooking in plastic wrap: if you don't have a seal, and soak meat in warm water for hours at a time - you will have achieved a successful bacterial multiplication. Enjoy your adventure in food poisoning!   If you are cooking fish, yes - the time/bacterial load are not large enough to develop, but shellfish may be a different story, and meat will spoil in just a few hours.  You use a sealer yourself, so why are you trying to argue that issue?

Not sure where you are getting all this bacteria. Do you cook in pond water? If you are cooking food to safe temps in the bag your tap water in the bath should also be safe. This isn't some 80's hot tub party. heh.

I'm mearly stating fact about using plastic wrap. If I didn't own a sealer I'd use it for things that required short cooking times. Why not if it works?

FYI, I don't own a vacuum chamber - the least expensive unit I saw was $1900, well beyond of what I am willing to spend right now, but I will invest in one of those some day, mostly for cured meat/sausage making, as well as SV.

If taken to the nth degree one might say you are not being correct or right in not using a chamber vacuum with gas flush. I'm just playing with you here, but seriously if you are using a FoodSaver or similar you are most definately not getting vacuum in the bag or really all of the available oxygen out of the bag. You can get a chamber machine for under 1k adequate for home use. That's still high in my opinion, but less than what you may have seen so far.

Temperature issue comes down to what kind of consistency you are trying to achieve: it may be more important in a restaurant set-up, than at home.

Thanks for qualifying this. I think I understand now that you are ok with the various techniques people are using at home.

..That having been said, one needs a proper wok and sufficient heat to stir fry, exact measurements for baking, and the right equipment to SV. Don't you agree?

Can you define the proper equipment for SV if it's not too much trouble? Is it a Lab IC and Chamber vacuum sealer? Or do you allow a heater, controller, circulator and some means of removing air and keeping the bath liquid away from the food?

* adding up thread reference
http://forums.egulle...dpost&p=1069360

Edited by pounce, 25 January 2008 - 02:04 PM.

[MikeTMD]

Do you think you have any other pressure than your existing atmospheric pressure on the bag once it's sealed? You have only removed the air or anything else that escaped. I think there is a common misconception about SV and whether there is any vacuum in the bag after it's been sealed.

The pressure in a properly sealed vacuum bag is always less than the atmospheric pressure, that's just basic physics and the definition of vacuum. However, in SV our objective is not to depressurize a cooking bag, but rather to remove air/oxygen. The reason is to prevent aerobic microorganisms ( i.e. the ones that need air to function) from multiplying, and thus spoiling the food. The drawback is that anaerobic flora (microorganisms that can only live without oxygen) would flourish, so we have to cook things relatively quickly ( e.g. fish), or for an extended period of time (e.g. meat), because the SV cooking temps are relatively low, and it takes a lot longer to kill harmful anaerobic bacteria ( it's similar to canning/preserving, which is also cooking under vacuum, BTW)

Not sure where you are getting all this bacteria. Do you cook in pond water?    If you are cooking food to safe temps in the bag your tap water in the bath should also be safe. This isn't some 80's hot tub party. heh.

Microorganisms are native to food products, for example - Salmonella is associated with chicken/poultry, E. Coli contaminates beef, etc. Boiling would kill most of those "bugs", but in SV we typically don't get into the boiling water temps (100C), so the solution is to remove ALL air and ALL oxygen ( 19-21% of air content), and pretty much "choke" the harmful microorganisms to death.

If taken to the nth degree one might say you are not being correct or right in not using a chamber vacuum with gas flush. I'm just playing with you here, but seriously if you are using a FoodSaver or similar you are most definately not getting vacuum in the bag or really all of the available oxygen out of the bag. You can get a chamber machine for under 1k adequate for home use. That's still high in my opinion, but less than what you may have seen so far.

FoodSaver wouldn't create the full vacuum, and the FS seal is somewhat weak, which is why it's too risky to use it for SV cooking. Where did you see a vacuum chamber machine for $1000? I want it!

Can you define the proper equipment for SV if it's not too much trouble? Is it a Lab IC and Chamber vacuum sealer? Or do you allow a heater, controller, circulator and some means of removing air and keeping the bath liquid away from the food?

Proper equipment is any device/devices that would create full vacuum, support the vacuum seal, maintain constant temperature and circulation. Water bath is just as good as any immersion circulator, steamers would work as well as autoclaves. If a SV vacuum bag leaks - I am not serving whatever we cooked in it. Hopefully, you understand why.

My next project is to SV shellfish. Suggestions, please!

Edited by MikeTMD, 25 January 2008 - 03:34 PM.

[jmolinari]

FoodSaver wouldn't create the full vacuum, and the FS seal is somewhat weak, which is why it's too risky to use it for SV cooking.

That's an interesting statement. Do you have any data to back this up?

[MikeTMD]

Yes, check your FoodSaver manual, it'd would tell you the pressure range for your particular model. A good indicator is freezer burns: if you see them - there is no vacuum.