977 replies to this topic

[pounce]

This is a Julabo head that I have mounted on a custom lexan deck/lid covering a counter food warmer/steam table.

Pounce,
At the resolution of the posted image I can't read the brand name on your warmer. It looks like a nice size for a countertop unit. Who's is it?
Doc

It's an Omcan TS-9000. This unit is frequently rebranded as someting else. I got it on ebay new for just over 100. It's a very nice unit, worth every penny.

http://www.instaware...-ts9000.0.7.htm

Edited by pounce, 11 January 2008 - 06:31 PM.

[phan1]

I just recently bought a poly probath for $329. It's about as affordable as a new waterbath can get, and I think it's great so far. Think of it as buying 1.5 Le Cruset pots. :) I was a bit alarmed at 1st, as it was made out of cheap plastic and relatively light. But the thing words great, and the light weight makes it easier for me to pour out the water. It's very quite, and there's no doubt it was meant to be on for as long as you want it to be on. It's lab equipment after all. And the size is perfect for home use as well, a big plus over the ebay ones that sport huge machines with small volume capacity. There are just so many things you can do with it; I think it's a great investment.

One of the other reasons why I wanted a new one rather than an old ebay one (which would still be great I assume) was that I wanted something I could put food directly in if I wanted to. The technique of pre-cooking potatoes at 70C is really great, and I wanted to be able to just toss the potatoes in the water bath instead of some rusty metal thing.

Also, I've been SVing chicken breast at 160F, but I noticed people doing it as low as 140F on these boards. Is that safe? Ideally, I'd like to go as low as I can of course, but there's a big difference betwee 160F and 140F, and 160-ish is the bacteria threshold... Sorry if this has been talked about before, but this is a damn long post!

Edited by phan1, 11 January 2008 - 10:51 PM.

[e_monster]

Also, I've been SVing chicken breast at 160F, but I noticed people doing it as low as 140F on these boards.  Is that safe?  Ideally, I'd like to go as low as I can of course, but there's a big difference betwee 160F and 140F, and 160-ish is the bacteria threshold...  Sorry if this has been talked about before, but this is a damn long post!

140F is safe IF you make sure that the chicken is at 140F for a long enough time. Nathan has posted tables for calculating how long you need to cook a particular thickness of meat at a particular temperature to attain the target temperature. There is also a link on the list to the FDA tables that describe how long poultry needs to spend at a particular temperature to be sterile.

You add the sterilization time to the time it takes the meat to get completely to temp. An hour or so for most of the chicken breasts that I have cooked has been more than enough time for them to be safe to eat -- but get the tables to be sure. The time goes up dramatically the thicker the meat is.

I have cooked chicken breasts as low as 132 (they need to spend a lot longer at 132 to become sterile than they do at 140 by the way) but prefer the texture when cooked at 140 or so. At 140, I find the result tender and plump. At 132 I find the texture a little mushy -- but some prefer the texture at 132.

If you do a search in this topic for "tables" you should find them.

[DocDougherty]

It's an Omcan TS-9000. This unit is frequently rebranded as someting else. I got it on ebay new for just over 100. It's a very nice unit, worth every penny.
http://www.instaware...-ts9000.0.7.htm

Pounce,
Thanks. Just scaling from the spec height of 10" and the location of the drain, would I be close if I guessed that the net tank depth is about 7"?
Doc

[DocDougherty]

Also, I've been SVing chicken breast at 160F, but I noticed people doing it as low as 140F on these boards.  Is that safe? 

I have found that chicken breasts work best for my family at 153F for 2 hrs (wrapped individually), but you can certainly go down to 140F if you want to.

As for safety, I found a research paper by some folks in Ireland where they showed that at 60C (140F), the decimation time (the time required to reduce the viable bacteria population by a factor of 10) for the most virulent thermotolerant bacteria is about 17 min (I think they were modeling pepperoni production). Since you want to take the bacterial count down to less than 1/cc, this means you want to run with the food at a core temp of 140F for 7 decimation times. So, adding 40 min to get the core up to 140F and 7x17min at temp, you should plan for at least 3 hr. Above 60C, the decimation times come down very quickly. On the other hand, if the food is for immediate consumption and it was whole muscle meat and it has been well kept and is clean and is salted when you start, you can use a shorter time, but that is your call.
Doc

[slkinsey]

Also, I've been SVing chicken breast at 160F, but I noticed people doing it as low as 140F on these boards.  Is that safe?

I have found that chicken breasts work best for my family at 153F for 2 hrs (wrapped individually), but you can certainly go down to 140F if you want to.

67C for chicken breast? That's too high for me. I mean, it's good at that temperature compared to the usual dried-out cottony whole chicken breast cooked by conventional means (which is why I only do scallopini if cooking chicken breast conventionally), but I vastly prefer 60C. I just follow the timetables and cook to sterilization.

[syoung68]

I just recently bought a poly probath for $329.  It's about as affordable as a new waterbath can get, and I think it's great so far.  Think of it as buying 1.5 Le Cruset pots.  :)  I was a bit alarmed at 1st, as it was made out of cheap plastic and relatively light.  But the thing words great, and the light weight makes it easier for me to pour out the water.  It's very quite, and there's no doubt it was meant to be on for as long as you want it to be on.  It's lab equipment after all.  And the size is perfect for home use as well, a big plus over the ebay ones that sport huge machines with small volume capacity.  There are just so many things you can do with it; I think it's a great investment.

Phan1, can you tell me more about this unit. It looks like the PERFECT home unit. How much can you fit in the chamber? Could you get four steaks or chicken breasts in there with enough room for the water to move around? Have you tested the temps for accuracy. Does the chamber come out for cleaning - if so could it be used as a crock pot (much like Alton I am generally opposed to uni-taskers)?

I assume there is no circulation in it other than convection, maybe some of the others here can comment on the need for it.

NOTE: I have emailed Revolutionary Science for more details as well.

Edited by syoung68, 14 January 2008 - 09:41 AM.

[slkinsey]

. . . I wanted something I could put food directly in if I wanted to.  The technique of pre-cooking potatoes at 70C is really great, and I wanted to be able to just toss the potatoes in the water bath instead of some rusty metal thing.

I've thought about this a bit with my setup, and decided against putting food directly into the waterbath. Ultimately I was swayed by two factors:

1. I didn't want to get potato starch (or any other bits of organic material) on my circulator. This seems like asking for trouble and a maintenance hassle.

2. It's perfectly easy to dump a bunch of sliced potatoes (or whatever) and water into an open bag or a rigid container, and then clip the bag or container to the side of the water bath. There is no need to seal the bag or the container in this context.

[e_monster]

I recently got the Auber Instruments PID controller and have used it for a couple of days with a 6 qt Presto multi-cooker (which can be had for about $25 or so). The controller is working as advertised. I am about to experiment with brisket sous-vide (I may need to use a larger vessel with a cheap immersion heater as TheSwede as done since even a small brisket would be pretty large compared to the water volum).

I have looked through the archives to see if there is a consensus on the best settings for brisket. But there aren't many data points. I see that Nathan has recommended 130F for 36 hours and that someone else recently did one at a higher temp for 48 hours.

If anyone has a 'killer' time/temp combo for brisket, please post it.

As an aside, I see that Hamilon Beach makes a multicooker that is really an immersion heater and goes for about $40. If the el-cheapo 300 watt immersion heater doesn't work, I may hack the Hamilton Beach thingie and use it in a large stockpot.

More notes on my setup (for others looking to do sous vide on the cheap). The temps have been quite stable with very little initial oveshoot (I am starting with water that is close to the target temperature) and the temps have been pretty uniform inside the cooker. If the bag is too large there can be temperature gradients of a few degrees but using a cheap aquarium pump and airstone solves that. I happened to have an old aquarium pump in the garage but they can be had new for about $10.

[pounce]

As an aside, I see that Hamilon Beach makes a multicooker that is really an immersion heater and goes for about $40. If the el-cheapo 300 watt immersion heater doesn't work, I may hack the Hamilton Beach thingie and use it in a large stockpot.

Yea, these look pretty good. I saw one the other day and thought they would work well. Let us know how it goes. It looked to me like it wouldn't be too difficult to design a mount that could be fixed to a pot or whatever to accept the heating element from the multicooker.

On of these and a PID plus the fish pump or swamp pump for a larger tank and you have a pretty cheap solution.

Edited by pounce, 15 January 2008 - 06:58 AM.

[Mallet]

Seems like Hamilton Beach might have the makings of an affordable consumer-level sous vide setup if they subbed a PID for the thermostat on their units ...

[RobC]

If anyone has a 'killer' time/temp combo for brisket, please post it.

FWIW, Thomas Keller at FL uses 147° for 48 hours.

[e_monster]

If anyone has a 'killer' time/temp combo for brisket, please post it.

FWIW, Thomas Keller at FL uses 147° for 48 hours.

I am about 20 hrs into the cooking of a 4 lb brisket at 147F. I was originally planning to cook it for 48 hours but due to a schedule change, it would be better if I finished cooking tonight which would put the cook time at about 26 or 27 hours.

Can anyone with brisket experience tell me if it will be a disaster to eat the brisket at only 27 hours? (I.e. will it still be tough or will 27 hours have been enough time to make it tender).

Thanks!

[e_monster]

To answer my own question, this 4 lb brisket cooked for 27 hours at 147F came out nicely. It was on the firm side of tender. It was not tough and was very tasty. Next cook will be for 48 hrs with the identical prep (rubbed with my favorite dry rub) so that I can compare. (I also want to try a cook at 135F for 48 hrs)

The setup that I used was an 8 qt le creuset pot setup with a 300 watt el-cheapo immersion heater (the $10 variety used to heat water in a mug) contolled by an Auber Instruments PID controller. The pot was put on a burner of my gas stove. The flame was set very very low (low enough that the temperature of the pot would drop slowly without the assistance of the immersion heater). The immersion heater's job was basically just to assist the gas.

(For anyone wondering why I didn't just the stove without the immersion heater, the reason is that with the flame turned up even slightly more the temperature slowly kept rising in my earlier tests so that after a few hours the temperature had risen a few degrees).

[RobC]

Thanks for the update. We brisket lovers will look forward to future experiments. It's all in the interest of science!

[phan1]

Unfortunately, souse vide chicken breast doesn't taste special to me like the way SV salmon does. I find chicken breast to be the unappealing, dry, crappy part of the chicken that no one wants to eat. I was hoping SV would change that, but it doesn't. SV seafood is absolutely fantastic though. :)

[phan1]

I just recently bought a poly probath for $329.  It's about as affordable as a new waterbath can get, and I think it's great so far.  Think of it as buying 1.5 Le Cruset pots.  :)  I was a bit alarmed at 1st, as it was made out of cheap plastic and relatively light.  But the thing words great, and the light weight makes it easier for me to pour out the water.  It's very quite, and there's no doubt it was meant to be on for as long as you want it to be on.  It's lab equipment after all.  And the size is perfect for home use as well, a big plus over the ebay ones that sport huge machines with small volume capacity.  There are just so many things you can do with it; I think it's a great investment.

Phan1, can you tell me more about this unit. It looks like the PERFECT home unit. How much can you fit in the chamber? Could you get four steaks or chicken breasts in there with enough room for the water to move around? Have you tested the temps for accuracy. Does the chamber come out for cleaning - if so could it be used as a crock pot (much like Alton I am generally opposed to uni-taskers)?

I assume there is no circulation in it other than convection, maybe some of the others here can comment on the need for it.

NOTE: I have emailed Revolutionary Science for more details as well.

Yup, 4 steaks would fit in there just fine. Just make sure you vaccum seal it so it doesn't float on top of the water. Size-wise, it's really perfect. The only downside is that the temperature raises slowly. I'd say it takes about 2 hours for it to come from room temperature to 70C. But SV is about setting it and forgetting it, so it's not a big deal to me.

[e_monster]

Unfortunately, souse vide chicken breast doesn't taste special to me like the way SV salmon does.  I find chicken breast to be the unappealing, dry, crappy part of the chicken that no one wants to eat.  I was hoping SV would change that, but it doesn't.  SV seafood is absolutely fantastic though. :)

I have had some sous vide chicken breasts that are amazing. I wouldn't be so quick to write off chicken sous vide. If you ended up with something that was not plump and tender, you should post your results so that the group might help you trouble shoot. When good quality chicken is cooked correctly in this manner, the result will be something plump with a shockingly tender texture that is so tender that it is more reminiscent of halibut (in texture not in flavor) than chicken.

My wife was a sous vide skeptic until she had chicken breasts sous vide. We have found with chicken that the quality of the ingredients has a huge impact -- much bigger than when cooking chicken with other methods. Chickens from the big commercial poultry companies have been terribly disappointing.

This sounds either like the chicken was cooked way too long (or too hot) or that the quality of the chicken wasn't very good.

[salsa72]

Hardware-wise, I've been using a homemade temperature controller for water baths on electric burners, and after a disaster on Wednesday, I'm about to PID the oven (I'm a renter-- the oven is awful). Not for sous vide, just for decent control (read: SANITY!), but I wonder-- has anybody controlled their oven this way? Seems it would be good for holding a sous vide water bath...

[qrn]

Hardware-wise, I've been using a homemade temperature controller for water baths on electric burners, and after a disaster on Wednesday, I'm about to PID the oven (I'm a renter-- the oven is awful).  Not for sous vide, just for decent control (read: SANITY!), but I wonder-- has anybody controlled their oven this way?  Seems it would be good for holding a sous vide water bath...

Unless you are very knowledgeable of household electrical circutry I would recommend you pass...240 v. can be very dangerous...
Bud

[Mallet]

Hardware-wise, I've been using a homemade temperature controller for water baths on electric burners, and after a disaster on Wednesday, I'm about to PID the oven (I'm a renter-- the oven is awful).  Not for sous vide, just for decent control (read: SANITY!), but I wonder-- has anybody controlled their oven this way?  Seems it would be good for holding a sous vide water bath...

Behold! The stovetop modification thread.

[MikeTMD]

Hardware-wise, I've been using a homemade temperature controller for water baths on electric burners, and after a disaster on Wednesday, I'm about to PID the oven (I'm a renter-- the oven is awful). Not for sous vide, just for decent control (read: SANITY!), but I wonder-- has anybody controlled their oven this way? Seems it would be good for holding a sous vide water bath...

Mallet, if I may: you are not going to achieve constant temperature and water circulation
with a home made device - my suggestion is to invest into a proper immersion circulator, otherwise you'd be waisting your time and money.

[e_monster]

A number of us are getting excellent results with the Auber Instruments temperature controller -- which is a fairly simple PID controller and would be fairly easy to build oneself (although the price from Auber is not terribly much more than the cost of buying all the required parts). When coupled with a heat source, they work great. It might be as great as having a laboratory immersion heater/circulator but the results are excellent nonetheless.

[jduncan81]

I purchased the Auber kit along with a 25-cup commercial rice cooker (great deal at $94 or so from here)

Everything arrived last week and I had a great weekend experimenting.

Does anybody have any ideas whether or not it's OK to hold sous vide eggs (cooked at 146) overnight? It'd make it a far more practical breakfast if I didn't have to wait two hours for them to cook in the morning. Obviously they won't overcook, but will any proteins denature (in the same way that meat gets more and more tender and eventually becomes mush) and have a negative effect?

Edited by jduncan81, 21 January 2008 - 01:55 PM.

[e_monster]

I did 147 degree eggs over night and the texture was pretty much the same as the 2 hour eggs I had done. The yolk was a bit firmer than the 2 hour egg but it was pretty close. My next experiment is going to be 145 overnight.

The whites were nearly identical in the 2 hour and 8 hour versions that I did.

[MikeTMD]

A number of us are getting excellent results with the Auber Instruments temperature controller -- which is a fairly simple PID controller and would be fairly easy to build oneself (although the price from Auber is not terribly much more than the cost of buying all the required parts). When coupled with a heat source, they work great. It might be as great as having a laboratory immersion heater/circulator but the results are excellent nonetheless.

Duly noted, but have you compared that PID device and a circulator side-by-side?

[e_monster]

No, but it is not relevant. I am not saying that I get identical performance to lab equipment (as I mentioned in my earlier post). I am simply saying that I get very good performance and can cook delectable food.

Not everyone can afford to have the absolute best equipment -- but one does not need the absolute best to get great results.

[alwang]

Does anyone have any firm information for temperatures at which fat begins to render? I find that when I'm cooking fatty cuts of meat like short ribs at 55C, they remain quite fatty, even after 72 hours. If I could melt away a lot more of the fat at a slightly higher temp, that would be a worthwhile trade-off.

Are there different rendering temps for different animal fats?

[scubadoo97]

McGee states that you need between 160-180*F for collagen to dissolve

[alwang]

Yes, I'm actually wondering specifically about fat instead of collagen. Through experience I know that 55C for a long enough period of time will soften the collagen in tough cuts enough to tenderize the meat, but they still remain fatty because the fat is not rendering.