977 replies to this topic

[pounce]

I'd just look at the shop nearest your house. The entry level pumps for under gravel filtering in aquariums are generally all external. If you are looking at something that is more than 10 you are looking at the wrong thing ;)

Just ask for an inexpesive air pump and don't bother with the air stone etc. just get enough clear plastic tubing to go from the pump to the bottom of your pot with the little more for trial and error etc.

[dougal]

Probably about £10 in a London pet supermarket.
You're looking for something rather like this
http://www.1st4aquat...s-50-3459-p.asp
which is one of the quieter small pumps.



Even if it didn't have quite the output pressure needed for the rather different project I was playing with...

[DouglasBaldwin]

Douglas – Great work!  Love the egg pictures – looks just like the ones that come out of my water bath.  Do you have experimental data that confirms the heating/cooling tables you’ve put together?  For example, I’ve found that in the case of a sausage vs the same thickness piece of meat, the sausage ‘cooks’ a good deal faster (measured with a probe thermometer), so geometry could be an additional factor. 

Any idea if there is a measurable difference between the use of a circulating and non-circulating bath?  I’ve only got a non-circulating bath, and haven’t found an inexpensive way of pushing the water around at, say, 70C so I can test the difference.

While I have collected some experimental data, I base my calculations on the results of various academic journals articles (from Journal of Food Engineering, Meat Science, Food Research International, Lebensmittel-Wissenschaft und Technologie,...). While the mathematics of computing heating/cooling times is straightforward (for a mathematician ), it requires numerous assumptions that cannot be true in all (or even any) cases.

My first assumption is that there is no harm in cooking a piece of meat longer than it needs to come up to temperature, but not cooking a piece of meat long enough could be very dangerous. Thus, my goal is to compute cooking/cooling times that assure (with 98% confidence*) that any meat you cook/cool will reach the desired temperature within the computed time.

Therefore, I am not at all surprised that your sausage cooked a good deal faster than my tables predicted. The problem, is that there is no way to determine a priori if the sausage will be done in the time listed or in half the time listed. Even for the same type and cut of meat, one piece could take more than 60% longer than another**.

There is a measurable difference between circulating and non-circulating water baths, but it is less than you might expect. How quickly the surface temperature changes depends on the heat transfer coefficient of the cooking medium. For instance, (very roughly speaking) the heat transfer coefficient of naturally convected air is about 10 W/m^2-C, about 100 W/m^2-C for naturally convected water, 1,000 W/m^2-C for circulated water, and 10,000 W/m^2-C for steam. Using a thermal diffusivity of 0.956 mm^2/sec, a 20mm thick piece of meat takes:
-- 42:37 in naturally convected air,
-- 25:32 in naturally convected water, and
-- 24:51 in forced convection (circulated) water,
to come up to 64C in a 65C cooking medium (with a starting temperature of 4C). The problem, is that a crock-pot has little or no natural convection and the meat could take much longer than calculated. Moreover, the times assume that the average temperature of the cooking medium does not drop substantially when the meat is inserted.

* I am (perhaps fallaciously) assuming that thermal diffusivity is normally distributed.

** For similar pieces of pork, the thermal diffusivity ranged for 1.12 to 1.83 mm^2/sec in [J Food Eng 77 (2006) 731--738].

Edit: Fixed formating.

Edited by DouglasBaldwin, 22 April 2008 - 07:55 PM.

[sygyzy]

Is there a consensus on the best time to place the meat inside the rice cooker/bath? Should you drop it in after it has come up to temperature or put it in with room temp water and let it sit through the heating process?

[DouglasBaldwin]

You should drop it in after it has come up to temperature. Dropping it in a water bath while it is still heating up might allow toxin producing bacteria to multiply to dangerous levels. For instance, the toxin forming C. perfringens can multiply to dangerous levels if a center temperature of 127.5F (53C) is not reached in less than 6 hours. Moreover, even in a water bath that has already come up to temperature, the meat must be cut so that it is
-- less than 85mm thick when placed in a 131F (55C) water bath,
-- less than 105mm thick when placed in a 141F (60C) water bath,
-- less than 115mm thick when placed in a 147F (64C) water bath, or
-- less than 140mm thick when placed in a 176F (80C) water bath,
to assure that it will reach at 127.5F (53C) in 6 hours.

[MikeTMD]

Hello, everyone,

Nice to be back.

I am nursing an idea of making risotto with frog legs - does anybody have any experience/suggestions for frog leg SV?

I am primarily interested in temp/time, but would like to hear seasoning ideas as well. Do we SV legs as we do chicken, because there is some similarity between the two, or do we treat them as fish/shellfish?

Opinions, please!

Edited by MikeTMD, 23 April 2008 - 09:44 AM.

[Baggy]

Douglas, still trying to catch up. Does this mean that the rate limiting step to achieve any given internal temperature is not the interface between the water and food, but the rate of heat diffusion within the food?

[nathanm]

Yes, heat diffusion is the slow part. Roughly speaking you can expect diffusion to scale with time like the square of the thickness, so a steak that is twice as thick should take 4 times longer to cook.

[ossified]

Hi all! Reading this thread provided the impetus to get a SVM PID, 25 cup rice cooker, and cheap aquarium air pump. I've had some short ribs in at 141F for 16 hours now (and counting) and have a couple of questions maybe y'all could help me with:

(1) I noticed that Doug's excellent SV web pages included time/temp for flatiron steak and pork confit--has anyone developed similar numbers for short ribs? It seems as though there's a tradeoff between water temps in the area of steak internal temps (yielding a steakier short rib) and higher water temps (resulting in more of braised final product). Is that an accurate assessment? Since I've still got a good 20 hours or so of cooking time ahead, I thought now might be a good time to ask

(2) Since I'm using the air pump, I can't close the lid of the cooker and am using aluminum foil over the top of the cooker for insulation/evaporation control. Is the pump necessary when using a closed rice cooker, or is there sufficient convection in the cooker?

(3) My girlfriend thinks that I'm insane and is convinced that I am turning our kitchen into a chemistry lab. Could someone provide the archetypal "blow 'em away" SV recipe that will convince her that I am not a mad scientist, but actually a visionary whose only desire is to offer her other worldly sensual pleasures?

[DouglasBaldwin]

(1) You are quite right, if you want a `steakier' short rib then you would use a lower temperature for a longer time (say 131F/55C for 24 hours) and if you want a `braised' short rib then you would use a higher temperature for a shorter time (say 176F/80C for 8-12 hours).

(2) The air pump may not be necessary, but it certainly doesn't hurt anything. If you have a good (thermocouple) digital thermometer, you can measure the water temperature at multiple points and see if the water temperature is uniform without the air pump.

(3) Everyone probably has their favorite `blow 'em away' sous-vide recipe. I usually show off the power of sous-vide by making roast beef: chuck roast seasoned with salt and pepper and cooked for 24 hours at 131F/55C. I use chuck roast because it has great flavor, is extremely tender after the collagen has dissolved into gelatin, and is inexpensive (only about $3/lb at Costco).

Some of my friends absolutely love sous-vide salmon, while others don't care for it at all. Many of my friends like sous-vide chicken breasts, but I think that is just because conventionally prepared chicken is grossly overcooked. If you do go for chicken, I would recommend removing the skin first and preparing it separately and then brining the chicken breasts.

[origamicrane]

try plain carrots just peel them, vac pack them and sous vide them.
they will be the sweetest carrots she ever tasted.
say no added sugar or anything else, if this method can do that for a plain carrot imagine what it could do for other dishes.

[MikeHartnett]

Any temp/ time suggestions?

[origamicrane]

Cut the carrot into 2 inch long and 1cm wide sticks.
Depends how tender you want them but I believe the consensus was 83C for an hour.

[smashz]

I wanted to see what would happen if I smoked a brisket and then cooked it sous-vide. I now have my SV Magic set up with a 30-cup rice cooker (which I got for free through freecycle.org).

- I split and rubbed a brisket. One piece was smoked (over fig wood) for 2 hours to a surface temperature of 124F (core temp of 108F). The other piece smoked normally for 8.5 hrs. to 160F. (The conventional piece was refrigerated and then warmed up to compare.)

Since cooking SV is relatively new for me, I also decided to toss some other things in.
- A beef short rib with S&P, sesame oil, and pomegranate molasses
- Two shallots, one in ooil, the other dry. Most veggies need a higher temperature to break down cellulose, but I thought that shallots might work.

In addition, a pork tenderloin went in for 2 hrs. Prepped 3 ways
(reports here say that garlic does not work well in s-v, so we wanted to try variants):
- S&P, caraway, garlic powder
- S&P, rosemary, fresh garlic
- S&P, tarragon, garlic confit

Conclusions:
- The smoked brisket was not up to my usual standards (a bit dry - maybe this came as a result of refrigeration while waiting for the SV), but it was flavorful
- The smoked/SV brisket had more flavor (both spice and smoke) permeating the meat all the way through, and was moist and tender. It also tasted meatier. The ends were moister and more broken down than the center of the cut, suggesting that longer might be better.


The short rib was outstanding, the best of the test

All 3 pieces of pork tenderloin were perfectly cooked, moist and tender, although the sear may have been excessive; the white extended far past the surface. (My Austrian wife said that it was better than the best Schweinsbraten she's ever had.)
- The caraway and garlic powder pork tenderloin was the most garlicky, but the caraway was mostly lost.
- The tarragon note was good, and the garlic confit gave a nice mellow garlic addition
- The rosemary was also good, and the fresh garlic did not lend the off note that others have reported, although it was the least garlicky

I will play with the smoking/SV more. The results were good, but I expect to be able to get something better.

Here is a link to other images.

(Edited to add photo.)

Edited by smashz, 04 May 2008 - 08:09 PM.

[MikeTMD]

Smashz,

Congrats on your first SV experience!

Few observations:

Most likely you overcooked the meat: I would say it was smoked a bit too long , before you SV it ( internal temp was either too high to begin with, and kept rising)

Generally, onions/shallots don't need to be SV for 48 hours, unless you are trying to make a puree

Also, you seem to "overcrowded" your SV vehicle - I don't know if there was any circulation in that rice cooker, but chances are different cuts were cooked at different temps - I would suggest to allow water to circulate, and to maintain temp within .25-.5C range. If you go beyond that - temp will get out of control, esp. in a limited space.

You use a blowtorch to careamelize your meat - it's a lot of fun, and it looks/feels quite theatrical, but browning meat that way yields uneven results - that heavy cast iron pan and a touch of clarified butter would probably work much better.

I looked at your pics - awesome!!! What internal temp were you trying to achieve for your cuts? Did you check the temps during cooking?

I hope you enjoyed the results, and please don't take these suggestions as critique - the goal for most people here is to perfect the art of SV ( there are a few, however, who make statements and arguments just for the sake of being noticed - hope you don't pay attention to them)

[e_monster]

- I split and rubbed a brisket. One piece was smoked (over fig wood) for 2 hours to a surface temperature of 124F (core temp of 108F). The other piece smoked normally for 8.5 hrs. to 160F. (The conventional piece was refrigerated and then warmed up to compare.)


Conclusions:
- The smoked brisket was not up to my usual standards (a bit dry - maybe this came as a result of refrigeration while waiting for the SV), but it was flavorful
- The smoked/SV brisket had more flavor (both spice and smoke) permeating the meat all the way through, and was moist and tender. It also tasted meatier. The ends were moister and more broken down than the center of the cut, suggesting that longer might be better.

Great post. I have been interested in a hybrid experiment like this but haven't had a chance with brisket yet.

What temp and time did you use on the SV brisket?

I suspect that one doesn't even need 2 hrs in the smoker to develop a fair amount of smoke flavor when it is going to be finished SV.

[smashz]

What temp and time did you use on the SV brisket?

I suspect that one doesn't even need 2 hrs in the smoker to develop a fair amount of smoke flavor when it is going to be finished SV.

Maybe not, but I like strong smoke flavor in brisket. I also wanted there to be enough to notice a difference. I took a WAG and figured that if I measured surface temperature and figured in carryover, that I would still be well below my target SV temperature of 146F/63C. I did the SV for 48 hours.

Most likely you overcooked the meat: I would say it was smoked a bit too long , before you SV it ( internal temp was either too high to begin with, and kept rising)

From past smoking experience, I more suspect that it was because I used a brisket with no fat cap. I've had variable results with an added fat layer, and it probably got me this time. Unfortunately, that was the last one my butcher had.

I pulled it out with a surface temperature of 124F and an internal temperature of 108F, so I don't think that carryover took it too far. But, input taken, I will try an earlier pull next time for comparison.

Also, you seem to "overcrowded" your SV vehicle - I don't know if there was any circulation in that rice cooker, but chances are different cuts were cooked at different temps - I would suggest to allow water to circulate, and to maintain temp within .25-.5C range. If you go beyond that - temp will get out of control, esp. in a limited space.

The photo shows it with the 3 pork tenderloins added, which was only in the final 2 hours. Most of the 48 hours it was rather sparse, not crowded at all. I did check the temperature at various points around the cooker several times, and it was within measurement error.

You use a blowtorch to careamelize your meat - it's a lot of fun, and it looks/feels quite theatrical, but browning meat that way yields uneven results - that heavy cast iron pan and a touch of clarified butter would probably work much better.

I had done SV twice before, on bacon-wrapped fillets, and did the hot pan/blowtorch sear, and it worked well. This time, however, I was doing too many pieces. Your point is well taken. (But the guest loved the theatrics.)

I looked at your pics - awesome!!! What internal temp were you trying to achieve for your cuts? Did you check the temps during cooking?

Thanks. I was shooting for 146F. Probably high, but I was concerned about sufficient breakdown of the tough meats, and took notes from the 60+ pages here. I did not check meat core temperature during cooking; I don't have the probe for that yet.

I hope you enjoyed the results, and please don't take these suggestions as critique - the goal for most people here is to perfect the art of SV ( there are a few, however, who make statements and arguments just for the sake of being noticed - hope you don't pay attention to them)

I (and the guests) enjoyed it, including the analysis of what to improve for next time. I absolutely welcome the critique - that's why I post. Thanks!

Edited by Pam R, 07 May 2008 - 08:15 PM.

[e_monster]

Maybe not, but I like strong smoke flavor in brisket. I also wanted there to be enough to notice a difference. I took a WAG and figured that if I measured surface temperature and figured in carryover, that I would still be well below my target SV temperature of 146F/63C. I did the SV for 48 hours.

As a point of reference, I like strong smoke flavor, too.


I have now done 3 briskets at 147F for 48 hrs and 1 at 135F. I liked the one at 135 better. 48 hours was plenty of time for the collagen to break down completely (and the fat doesn't render at either temp). The one at 135F was quite a bit moister than the other (the moistness might be because it was the deckel end and the other were all flats). It was fork tender.

[ossified]

(1) You are quite right, if you want a `steakier' short rib then you would use a lower temperature for a longer time (say 131F/55C for 24 hours) and if you want a `braised' short rib then you would use a higher temperature for a shorter time (say 176F/80C for 8-12 hours). 

(2) The air pump may not be necessary, but it certainly doesn't hurt anything.  If you have a good (thermocouple) digital thermometer, you can measure the water temperature at multiple points and see if the water temperature is uniform without the air pump. 

(3) Everyone probably has their favorite `blow 'em away' sous-vide recipe.  I usually show off the power of sous-vide by making roast beef: chuck roast seasoned with salt and pepper and cooked for 24 hours at 131F/55C.  I use chuck roast because it has great flavor, is extremely tender after the collagen has dissolved into gelatin, and is inexpensive (only about $3/lb at Costco). 

Some of my friends absolutely love sous-vide salmon, while others don't care for it at all.  Many of my friends like sous-vide chicken breasts, but I think that is just because conventionally prepared chicken is grossly overcooked.  If you do go for chicken, I would recommend removing the skin first and preparing it separately and then brining the chicken breasts.

Thanks, Doug! I finished up the short ribs yesterday and I have to say: Best. Short ribs. Ever. My girlfriend is now a believer. Tender, pink meat all the way through. I used a very hot cast iron skillet to finish them. I meant to take pictures, but got caught up in the excitement of the first 'unveiling', and only have pictures of the PID/pump/rice cooker set-up. Next up will likely be your chuck roast, but also on the near-term agenda are oxtails, a reprise of short ribs at higher temp/shorter cook time for contrast, and veal or lamb shanks.

Edited by ossified, 05 May 2008 - 12:55 PM.

[sygyzy]

I had a strange experience recently with SV Ribeye. Here's what I did.

1. Heavily salted a ribeye and stick slices of garlic in the natural fiber seperation already present (Pay attention to this for later). I let it sit so it would warm up to room temperature.

2. I set the SV PID connected to my 24 cup Black and Decker rice cooker to 132F.

3. I washed off the salt and patted the steak really dry. I put it into a bag along with a blob of butter and vacumm sealed it with a Foodsaver.

4. I placed it into the rice cooker and it started floating. I didn't think about this until after but this obviously suggested there was air. So I put in the steamer basket and it kept the whole thing down.

5. I let this cook for about 2:45 hrs.

6. When I took it out, I knew something was wrong. As I picked the bag up from the corner, I could feel my other hand get all greasy. I soon realized there was 1/3" hole in the seal and I was pouring juices out.

During cooking, the steak sort of split into multiple steaks. I realized after that ribeyes are probably not the best steaks to SV with. They are naturally "split" at various points. Cooking only made these splits more pronounced. I thought for a few minutes about whether or not I wanted to eat this. I was concerned about potential bacteria problems but I figured this was the same as putting steak in hot water. It's not as bad as having a bag expand while SV cooking, which would indicate bacterial growth. Right?

Anyway, I'll try again but this time I'll triple check the seal and I'll look into using a different cut.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

[e_monster]

During cooking, the steak sort of split into multiple steaks. I realized after that ribeyes are probably not the best steaks to SV with.

Here are a couple of thoughts

In my opinion, ribeyes are a great steak to SV with (btw, that is the cut that Grant Achatz uses at Alinea -- at Alinea the ribeye is wagyu beef flown in from Japan). With ribeye, I would alway go with a really thick steak 1.5 inch minimum (in my opinion). I find that thinner steaks are really no better SV than cooked by conventional means. Also, there is no advantage to keeping it in the bag longer than necessary to bring it up to temp.

When cooking a steak sous vide, I wouldn't leave it out beforehand to get to room temperature. There is no advantage and there is probably an increased risk of contamination. Also, there isn't any real reason to pat it dry. Moisture from inside the steak will come out when you sous vide--even when the bag is properly sealed. You will want to dry it off when it comes out of the bag before searing it (either in a super hot pan or with a blow torch).

I wouldn't recommend putting raw garlic in the bag. Most people find the flavor not quite right (even people like me that love raw garlic). The flavor doesn't develop as it does at a higher temp. When I want garlic in the bag, I usually use some cloves that I have already roasted, or garlic confit (I make it by cooking it in olive oil for a few hours at 170 or 180).

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[sygyzy]

Hi e_monster

Thanks for the reply. Maybe it was unique in the particular piece of ribeye I got but it definitely has these major seperations. I am not sure how I could explain it. Maybe I can post a picture for you to see. Do you understand what I am talking about?

I was at Alinea last month so I am aware of the steak and yes, it tasted great. But the piece that was served was not as seperated as mine was, plus it was a very small piece so even if it had the problem, you couldn't tell.

I did not put the garlic into the bag. At least I don't think so.

It seems odd not to let the steak come to room temperature. It just means it has to go from ~30F up to 132F rather than going from 70-132. I'd have to adjust for time then.

Thanks for your advice.

[e_monster]

I haven't had the problem with the steak breaking apart. But I do understand what you mean.

It isn't that odd to not bring it to room temperature first. With conventional methods, the cooking time is so quick that when it is added to the time for the meat to come to room temperature, the total time in the 'danger zone' is small. When you are cooking at LOW temperature, however, the situation is very different because the meat will be in the danger zone for a fair bit of time. All of Nathan's tables are based on the meat going from the refrigerator into the water, btw.

Best,

E

[slkinsey]

sygyzy, the reason you put the steak into the water bath at refrigerator temperature is because you want the steak to spend the minimum amount of time in the "danger zone" range of temperatures. What is the fastest way to warm up the steak? Put it in the water bath. It only makes sense to pre-warm-up the steak when you're using a cooking method in which the heat source is higher than the desired target temperature.

[sygyzy]

Thanks to both of you for your clarifications. I was unaware of the information you presented so my second attempt will surely be an improvement.

What *is* the danger zone temperature range, btw?

[rmillman]

When I do steaks now: I always do a sous vide first step.
I do it different than when I am doing a peice of meat when the goal is to render out collagen (where I use close to or my finish temp for 36+ hours).
For steaks, I use a bath at 65C and bring to an internal or 53-57 depending on degree on internal doneness i want (8-15min depending on steak and starting temp). I remove it from my bath, rinse the bag in cold water, rest it in the bag for 5 min and then chill on ice in bag. When I want to finish, I remove it from the bag, pat it dry, salt it and either sear on a HOT pan or prefered on a HOT charcoal grill (www.korin.com). Comes out perfect every time.

[DouglasBaldwin]

What *is* the danger zone temperature range, BTW?

The danger zone is between 29.3°F and 127.5°F (-1.6°C and 53°C). Different microorganisms grow at different temperatures; for instance Salmonella can grows between 41.5°F--114°F (5.5°C--45.5°C) while Listeria monocytogenes can grow at temperatures down to 29.3°F (-1.6°C) and Clostridium perfringens can grow at temperatures up to 127.5°F (53°C).

The pathogens can be inactivated with cooking (that is, we can pasteurize the food). This is typically achieved by heating the food to above 130°F (54.4°C) and holding it there for some length of time (please see my web page for more information). The problem, is that some pathogens produce toxins and/or spores which are not destroyed when cooking. For instance, C. perfringens produces both a toxin and spores (which is very resistant to heat).

[smashz]

I have now done 3 briskets at 147F for 48 hrs and 1 at 135F. I liked the one at 135 better. 48 hours was plenty of time for the collagen to break down completely (and the fat doesn't render at either temp). The one at 135F was quite a bit moister than the other (the moistness might be because it was the deckel end and the other were all flats). It was fork tender.

The piece which I ran the split experiment on was the flat.

Interesting comment about the result at lower temperature; that's what I'll try next.

You mention that neither temperature is sufficient to render fat. As you can see in the photos, I did include two small pieces of the fat which I'd used during smoking into the bag. These were visibly smaller (maybe 35% of the initial size) when it was finished.

[cookingkid]

I had a few questions about the brisket experiment...

I currently smoke a brisket for a beef duo on the menu, but I haven't thought about the sous vide idea for it. In other words, I just smoke until it's done. Anyway, what would the optimal cooking temperature be for the sv of a brisket? It is not a collagen rich cut, as far as I'm concerned, so would you do like e_monster recommends and go for a lower temperature, but not as long of a time, like maybe for 18 to 20 hours? In other words, why such extended water time? What is the benefit of 48 hours, or another way of putting it, what is the gastronomic difference between the brisket at 24 hours and 48 hours? Is is just to be on the safe side? By the way, I'm thinking of a brisket flat or some call it brisket nose off.

I use a ribeye for the other part of the duo, so here's why your ribeye fell apart. You got a part that had more deckle than ribEYE. The deckle is the flap of meat that covers the eye part of a ribeye primal. At one point, there is a third muscle that is not exactly deckle and not exactly ribeye (it happens to be one of the best pieces of meat on a cow, and I'd appreciate if anyone could tell me the exact name of that torpedo shaped muscle). So, your cut could have incorporated all three muscles with extraneous fat inbetween all of the cuts.

If you decide to cook the ribeye sv again, you may want to try and get a piece that would isolate just the eye. It's tough to explain that to a butcher or anyone who just cuts steaks from the primal. You would have more pure meat without the sinew and without any large pockets of fat.

Thanks for any answers.

[e_monster]

Brisket has a lot of collagen -- that is why it is so tough if you don't braise it -- and why it takes long time to cook even by traditional methods (it takes about 18 to 20 hrs for my smoker to get a brisket up to temp). At low temperatures like 135 and 147F, the collagen takes a lot longer to gelatinize than at higher temps (collagen breaks down a lot faster above about 170F -- I think that is about where it speeds up a lot). I have done 26, 36, and 48 hr SV brisket. At 48 hrs, the brisket at 135F was fork tender but also nice and meaty and held together -- not stringy at all. The meat was a nice bright pink, too - at 147F the meat was pinkish gray. At 26 hrs, the brisket was tasty but not as tender as I wanted. 36 hours wasn't as tender either but edible.

I suppose results will vary with the quality and marbling of the brisket. The French Laundry does theirs at 147F for 48 hrs. But I found 147F to yield a result dryer than I hoped for.

I will have to do some more at 135F to confirm that the moistness was the result of the cooking temp and not just because that particular brisket was naturally juicier.

I want to try on some Wagyu brisket next as the marbling of the flat should be better than the briskets I have worked with so far.