977 replies to this topic

[pounce]

Sorry, let me clarify a little on the GABA brown rice (hatsuga genmai).

The idea is that you germinate the brown rice before cooking in order to increase the amount of gamma-aminobutyric acid.

Here is a nice guide to making the rice without a circulator.

http://www.instructa...ted-brown-rice/

Bottom line you are just using the circulator to keep the temp stable for the germination of the rice. After you do this you cook it. I didn't actually cook the rice SV, but it was part of the process.

Edited by pounce, 10 March 2008 - 11:28 AM.

[Jonathan Kaplan]

Sous Vide report, a few weeks in...

Well, after my waterbath and home vacuum pack machine arrived, I set about playing around w/ SV.

First, let me thank everyone for all the work that's gone into this thread -- I would never have tried without all the information, the time-temp tables, etc., that have been gathered here. An esp. big thanks to Nathan!

So, here are some of my initial observations.

My attempts with salmon were less than satisfactory, in large part because the salmon was less than superb. I'll try again in season.

Similarly with my attempts with shrimp -- I'll try again when fresh spot prawns are available.

Scallops were the first big success. I tried them at 46C, 50C, 55C, and 60C, usually bagged with butter. I, personally, much preferred those done at either 50C or 55C -- I found the texture excellent, and the taste still very fresh and clean (startlingly close to in flavor to raw, but with the texture of gently cooked). At 46C, the texture wasn't there for me, and at 60C, the flavor was moving towards cooked.

Lobster was another success. I tried it at 46C, 50C, and 55C, and 60C, and, in the case of the latter temps, played with time. Here, I much preferred 55C for about 4 hours. This was true with both a butter and a cream-based bagged medium.

Finally, the other night, I tried a standard old boring chicken breast. This was done on a bit of a whim, and so I didn't try many tricks. I cooked it at 60C for about 8 hours, in a bag with truffle "juice," a bit of chicken fat, salt, pepper, etc. The chicken was quite nice, very moist, but here I think going down a few degrees would have been better. The flesh was permeated with the truffle, but only very mildly (if I do this again, I'll use more juice &/or switch to oil). The 'sauce' in the bag I thickened slightly -- it was excellent.

This weekend, I'm hoping to try short-ribs. I'm limited in my ability to experiment by the fact that my spouse is mostly vegetarian, so I only get to fool around when she isn't eating at home...

Best,


jk

[e_monster]

\

In my opinion, 8 hours is too long with chicken breast at 60C. I have done a lot of chicken breast and have found that when cooking at 140F (60C) the texture and mouth-feel degrade if cooked overlong (I have found the same to be true of turkey). With chicken breast or any other meat that does not need tenderizing there is usually not an advantage in using long cook times.

For chicken breast, I would use Nathan's tables to determine how long it takes the meat to get to the desired temp and add the amount of time needed to make it food safe (see the FDA tables). Once it is food safe, I wouldn't leave chicken or turkey in the bath indefinitely. At 140F, I have found that if I cook for more than an hour past the 'safe' time the result does not seem as good as if I stop the cooking earlier.

Also, the quality of the chicken is of the utmost importance.

[manwith8ovens]

Sorry, let me clarify a little on the GABA brown rice (hatsuga genmai).

The idea is that you germinate the brown rice before cooking in order to increase the amount of gamma-aminobutyric acid.

Here is a nice guide to making the rice without a circulator.

http://www.instructa...ted-brown-rice/

Bottom line you are just using the circulator to keep the temp stable for the germination of the rice. After you do this you cook it. I didn't actually cook the rice SV, but it was part of the process.

I would like to add some comments on Gaba germination.

Gaba germination
The above article states that the best environment to germinate Gaba is at 32C for 22 hours. I have tried many different ways, and the best result is using a rice warmer or a rice cooker using the warm cycle and controlled it with a PID controller like SousVideMagic/Auber. Without bagging the rice gives much better result. Good germination apparently needs some air and natural moist environment.
Most microprocessor based Japanese rice cookers now have a brown rice cooking cycle, but they use higher temperature and shorter time to soak, germination is never matured enough for full health benefits.
BTW, If anyone one interested in making sweet rice wine, the best environment is 30C for 25 hours depending on how sweet you want you wine to turn out.

[DouglasBaldwin]

If a water pump (or air bubbler) is not necessary in a rice cooker, it may not be necessary in for a counter top food warmer either.  Since I have an Auber PID and a food warmer, I will experiment with them this coming week and report back.

Using an uncirculated steam table and an Auber PID, I found that the spacial uniformity of the water was ±0.6°F (±0.3°C). That is, using a Thermoworks MicroTherma 2T, I found that the difference between the hottest and coldest spots in the water bath was 1.2°F (0.7°C). To test the spacial uniformity, I first let the water bath come up to temperature, then moved the probe all around the water bath and recorded the max/min temperatures. I then added three frozen chicken breasts, and repeated this measurement every 15 minutes. The average spacial uniformity was ±0.6°F (±0.3°C), the max was ±0.8°F (±0.4°C), and the min was ±0.4°F (±0.2°C).

While it may not be necessary, I still feel circulation is important because it will cause the surface temperature of the meat to come up to temperature much faster.

[joesan]

Nice work Douglas.

I am considering getting a steam table/bain marie but am a little concerned that they might be energy hogs. They look like they are un-insulated with very large surface areas. Have you found that to be a problem?

[Daniel]

Made white asparagus last night.. I cooked it at 87.7 for about an hour.. It came out a tad bit over cooked for me but, still really nice.. Just added a little butter in the pouch, then covered with crawfish and tasso in a creamy stock mixture made with the shells..

Also served beautiful double cooked pork chops I had brined but, couldnt bring myself to sous vide.. Grilled and finished in a super hot oven for 5 minutes..

[DouglasBaldwin]

Nice work Douglas.

I am considering getting a steam table/bain marie but am a little concerned that they might be energy hogs. They look like they are un-insulated with very large surface areas. Have you found that to be a problem?

Well I ran out and got a kilowatt meter this morning, and found that when set at 141F that the Auber PID controlled steam table averaged about 60 watts once up to temperature (to be precise, it used 0.07 kW-h in 1:15). I'm not surprised by this (rather) low power usage because the outside of the food warmer is never uncomfortable to the touch.

[Edit: To go along with NathanM's excellent post below, I thought I should mention that the steam table was covered with a metal lid to minimize evaporation. Also, measuring over 4 hours, it turned out to consume 69 watts.]

Edited by DouglasBaldwin, 11 March 2008 - 02:39 PM.

[joesan]

Ha - that's great Douglas. You certainly are the man for the measurements. Which is exactly what is needed sometimes. Many thanks for the great info, now I need to put a steam table on my to buy list...

[nathanm]

Well I ran out and got a kilowatt meter this morning, and found that when set at 141F that the Auber PID controlled steam table averaged about 60 watts once up to temperature (to be precise, it used 0.07 kW-h in 1:15).  I'm not surprised by this (rather) low power usage because the outside of the food warmer is never uncomfortable to the touch.

At low temperture energy usage really should not be an issue. It may sound strange, but it is often easier to get accurate temperature holding with less insulation because when the heater stops it cools down faster. So, if there is a small overshoot, it gets corrected faster.

At higher temp, insulation is more of an issue but is still small compared to evaporation. The main way you lose energy from a water bath is evaporative cooling. Covering the water bath - either with a hard cover, or plastic film (at low temp) or aluminum foil, is the most important thing you can do to save energy. It also prevents your bags of food from becoming high and dry and thus not heated. Or your temperature sensor can be high and dry which will cause overheating.

Most lab water baths have an automatic shut off feature if water level drops too low, and this can have a bad effect.

Evaporating 1 liter of water (1 kg) takes 2,260,000 joules of energy. A watt is 1 joule/second. So evaporating 1 liter of water over the course of an hour takes 628 watts. Evaporation occurs whenever the air above the water is less than 100% relative humidity. Covering the water bath effectively keeps the humidity at 100% right above the water, and shuts evaporation off.

The more water surface area that is exposed to the air, the more evaporation you will get. So, a wide shallow pan will lose more heat this way than a tall deep pan.

[slkinsey]

I do my sous vide using a Lauda clamped to a 5 gallon stainless steel stockpot. Typically I stretch some plastic film most of the way across the top of the stockpot (there is some open space where the unit clamps on), and secure it with a large rubber band. Even as high as 80C, I get very little evaporation.

[CaptainJack]

Thanks for the advice, also when using a low temp steam rational do you put the vac packs into a tray with water then into the oven?

[nathanm]

A combi oven inevitably has temperture fluctuations of a couple degrees. Gas units are much worse than electric in this regard.

At very low temp, putting water in the pan helps even out temperature fluctuations.

Above 60C/140F, the fluctuation matters less, so I usually don't do it.

Always use steam mode when cooking sous vide in a Rational or other combi oven.

Nathan

[joesan]

One thing that I was thinking about trying with my unmodified unit is that it could effectively be used like a low cost Thermomix. Set the nice low temperature and activate the stirrer and you could make a nice hollandaise or risotto with little manual intervention. I haven't bought one of the special stir bars yet but plan on getting one from eBay.

Well I got my stirrer bar and tried it. The results were great. Don't want to hijack the thread so here is the new thread. Hollandaise - Laboratory Style

I figure if you like to sous vide you'll want to try Laboratory Hollandaise.

It's fun and it really works.

[joesan]

Wired Online today features a nice article on our spiritual leader Mr M.

Egullet gets a mention too...

[Mallet]

The article was ok, but about 3 years behind (link). I found their attempts to cloak the whole thing in some sort of mysterious aura (the Jedi Master of some sort of obscure internet cult) kind of annoying.

[SignGuy]

Sorry for the delay getting back to you, it's been a crazy week. I saw the steam table at a Costco Business location (they are different from the regular Costco). Not sure if they have more of them around the country, or just the one here in AZ...

[adey73]

I hope Nathan doesn't feel uncomfortable coming on here now. I wanted a signed copy of his damn book!

Anyway, was that a Fluke thermometre with the large screen and data storage facility in the forefront of the photo?

I was just going to PM him if he thought 'Sous Vide and Cook-chill Processing for the Food Industry (Chapman & Hall Food Science Book)' by Sue Ghazala is worth the price tag. I want more detailed health & safety and more info on cook and hold.

Now I won't in case he think he's got a long distance English stalker

[nathanm]

I hope Nathan doesn't feel uncomfortable coming on here now. I wanted a signed copy of his damn book!

Anyway, was that a Fluke thermometre with the large screen and data storage facility in the forefront of the photo?

I was just going to PM him if he thought 'Sous Vide and Cook-chill Processing for the Food Industry (Chapman & Hall Food Science Book)' by Sue Ghazala is worth the price tag. I want more detailed health & safety and more info on cook and hold.

Now I won't in case he think he's got a long distance English stalker

I'm still coming on the thread.

I too want a signed copy of my book! Alas it is not done yet. We are working on it, but like a tough piece of meat it is going to require a long cooking time to make it consumable.

I do not think very highly of the Ghazala book.

Yes, it is a Fluke thermometer. However I also like Extech. My favorite one (posted up thread) takes two probes so you can monitor two temperatures at once.

[Chris Hennes]

I finally get to participate in this thread, instead of just living vicariously through the rest of you... a few months ago I picked up a laboratory circulator on eBay for $5 plus $20 shipping. It is just the pump, controller and heating element, with no container or hosing, which I just got around to picking up today. All told, I spent about $60 on this setup:

The controller is only proportional, and the dial is analog, so I use an external thermometer to monitor the temperature. For this experiment I am doing a duck breast at 55 C for four hours. It took about a 30 minutes to get the temperature dialed in, but once it was there it was rock steady (to within a degree, as fine as my thermometer measures). I've got a duck breast in there now, so we'll see how that goes...

[zEli173]

I get to participate for real too now. I've done a few quick cooking items sealed in my food saver and monitored with a candy thermometer. But I finally got myself an immersion circulator so now I can join in on long cooking with precision control.

I've been searching eBay for a deal on an immersion circulator since January, and earlier this month I found a Haake DC1 that I won for just over $100. I've quickly discovered that with this unit you need a fairly deep vessel to avoid spilling water everywhere. I don't have anything deep enough on it' own, but I rigged some aluminum foil around the interior of my 8-quart stock pot and it did the trick. Does anyone have a recommendation for a large cooking vessel that doesn't take up much space when stored? I'm in a small NYC apartment.

One thing I like about the Haake circulator is that it basically stands up on its own. To make sure it didn't tip over I fastened it the the handle of the pot with some rubber bands, but it was fairly stable without it. I suppose I should buy myself a clamp to make sure the electronics never fall into the water.

I also like the digital control, but I'm not sure what all the buttons do. Nathan, are you familiar with all the functions and buttons on this unit?

Anyway, like Chris, my first trial was with Duck breast. I did two of them last night at 55.2 degrees for just over three hours. Then I put them in a pan to brown and render the skin side. I started them in the pan on a medium low heat and gradually moved the heat up to medium high for the last two minutes. The browning process had a minimal impact on the temperature of the meet. I served them with poblano peppers stuffed and roasted with rice, shallots, currants, and a little bit of chopped olives. Everything was finished with a 'vinaigrette' of wine wine vinegar, port, a splash of white wine, some of the rendered fat, and peppercorns.

Overall, the dish came out pretty well. However, I'm not convinced the sous vide process did much to enhance the meat. I think I could have gotten similar results doing the whole thing in a pan. Next time I might go at a slightly lower temperature (maybe 54.5) as I'd like it slightly more rare. But I was also hoping for the meat the come out a little more tender and I'm not sure how to help that.

Next up are the legs from said duck which are ready for a long confit.

Edited by zEli173, 16 March 2008 - 02:01 PM.

[Chris Hennes]

Duck breast sous vide at 55C for 3.5 hours, then seared over very high heat for a few seconds each side:

Pre-sear:


Final plated dish:


As you can see, I still don't have a proper vacuum machine, so I'm using the Reynolds Handi-Vac system, lining their bags with an additional layer of heat-safe plastic. Actually works pretty well (for $10!!). If found the duck to be as perfectly cooked as any I have ever had.

[RobC]

Does anyone have a recommendation for a large cooking vessel that doesn't take up much space when stored?  I'm in a small NYC apartment.

The container I've been using most often is a $5 Rubbermaid bucket. Works great, lightweight and easy to handle, and stores in the bottom of any closet. If cooking at high temperature, I place aluminum foil over the top to minimize evaporation. And for large quantities, I use . . . a larger oval bucket!

[zEli173]

I put my duck legs in late last night at 82 degrees (180 F) and when I woke up this morning I discovered that my circulator had shut off overnight. I covered loosely with foil, but I guess a lot of water evaporated. By the time I found it, the water temp was down to 37 degree. Is the meat ruined by the risk of spoilage or is it ok for me to just resume the cooking process?

[Chris Hennes]

Anyway, like Chris, my first trial was with Duck breast.  I did two of them last night at 55.2 degrees for just over three hours.  Then I put them in a pan to brown and render the skin side.  I started them in the pan on a medium low heat and gradually moved the heat up to medium high for the last two minutes.  The browning process had a minimal impact on the temperature of the meet. [...]  I think I could have gotten similar results doing the whole thing in a pan.

I was following the method BryanZ detailed in this post, removing the skin and rendering it separately. I think that by re-cooking the breast to render the fat from the skin you were essentially defeating the purpose of the sous vide technique. The breast I made was incredibly tender and juicy, much more so than when I use a stovetop cooking technique. Any of the local sous vide experts care to comment?

[origamicrane]

I put my duck legs in late last night at 82 degrees (180 F) and when I woke up this morning I discovered that my circulator had shut off overnight.  I covered loosely with foil, but I guess a lot of water evaporated.  By the time I found it, the water temp was down to 37 degree.  Is the meat ruined by the risk of spoilage or is it ok for me to just resume the cooking process?

probably not but why risk it?

[Daniel]

Its St Patricks Day.. No corned beef and cabbage a la sous vide?

[zEli173]

I put my duck legs in late last night at 82 degrees (180 F) and when I woke up this morning I discovered that my circulator had shut off overnight.  I covered loosely with foil, but I guess a lot of water evaporated.  By the time I found it, the water temp was down to 37 degree.  Is the meat ruined by the risk of spoilage or is it ok for me to just resume the cooking process?

probably not but why risk it?

Because I was really looking forward to my duck confit

Seriously though, I guess the important question is whether spoilage will be obvious (e.g. a rancid smell) or it won't be apparent until some unfortunate time after I eat.

[DouglasBaldwin]

Seriously though, I guess the important question is whether spoilage will be obvious (e.g. a rancid smell) or it won't be apparent until some unfortunate time after I eat.

Assuming the duck legs were heated through to 180F (82C) before the heater shut off, then all the common food pathogens would have been destroyed. The problem, is that the temperature is not sufficient to destroy the spores of clostridium botulinum (type A,B) or the spores of clostridium perfringens. If either of these spores started growing and multiplying, they would not cause any obvious signs of spoilage. However, heating the meat through to 180F (82C) and holding it at that temperature for at least 10 minutes will inactivate the c. botulinum neurotoxins. Moreover, the spores of c. perfringens need about 15 hours below 130F (55C). So, finishing your cooking is probably okay, but it is outside FDA guidelines.

[slkinsey]

Its St Patricks Day.. No corned beef and cabbage a la sous vide?

I did a corned beef sous vide once before. Came out pretty good. There was a lot of shrinkage of the meat and production of liquid from the meat. The liquid was, as one might imagine, quite salty. I used the liquid to boil potatoes and steam wedges of cabbage. Came out pretty good, as I remember.