977 replies to this topic

[phan1]

I have a question. Does "time" matter, or does only "internal temperature" matter? I never timed my sous vide; I just throw it in there and then can come back for it when I have the other elements of my cooking done (usually 1-2 hours). But for things like brisket, it takes a very long time because that's how long it takes to reach that temperature throughout the meat, or is the meat going to tenderize if you keep it at the ideal temperature for a couple hours?

I've heard of Heston Blumenthal cooking his duck legs SV for 48 hours! So the extra time has got to play a factor, not just internal temperature, right? So if I cooked lobster at 45C for 10 hours, will it be more tender than the one I cooked at 45C for two? Or is a 45C lobster still a 45C lobster?

[DouglasBaldwin]

For a good discussion on why time is important, see NathanM's post #181. You can also see my sous vide web guide which goes into quite a bit of detail here. Basically, there are two time scales in sous vide: how long it takes to come up to temperature and how long it takes to dissolve the collagen into gelatin. The first strongly depends on the thickness of the meat, and can be approximately calculated using either NathanM's or my own tables. The long cooking times (8-48 hours) must be at or above 131F (55C) for food safety reasons (so no fish or rare meats); the long cooking times are only appropriate for tough meats, because a tender cut of meat would turn to mush.

[MikeHartnett]

I've looked through the thread for info re: fruit sous vide, and I haven't found all that much. I'm curious as to whether anyone's using sous vide methods for anything other than traditional meat and fish, etc.

I'd be interested in hearing about experiences with anything unique.

[slkinsey]

Other than preventing oxidation, it's not clear that sous vide cooking has any particular advantages when it comes to fruit. Using some of the sous vide equipment, it's possible to do some interesting effects with certain fruits -- for example, compressed fruits or fruits that are infused with other liquids by vacuuming the fruit in a liquid bath and then returning the fruit to atmospheric pressure, causing it to "suck" the liquid into the spaces previously occupied by air. But these things require a machine that can pull a pretty hard vacuum. I tried doing Negroni-infused cucumber using a vacuum container and a friend's FoodSaver the other day, and the infusion was only partially successful.

[jackal10]

I cook rhubarb with more precision, 75C for half an hour.

[Ruth]

I love the texture when I cook it for 1 hour at 68°C. I wonder if there is any difference in our results. My stalks were cooked but firm and retained their shape.

[origamicrane]

Hi
has anyone tried using a laboratory digital hotplate for sous vide?
They are precise to 1 degree and have a temperature range from ambient up to 350C.

something like this
https://extranet.fis...ltSetPosition=0

Looking at them on ebay seems like they cost a similar amount as pidding a rice cooker and are a less fiddly setup.
A lot cheaper then a used immersion circualtor or a dedicated hot waterbath and you can avoid having to cleanse it as you can just stick a normal pan on it.
Some even have an inbuilt magnetic stirrer so you can have water circualtion too.

The temperature range goes up to 350C could also use it as a deep fat fryer too.


Anyone see any problems with this setup?
a stirred digital hot plate with a 200mm deep, 1/2 aluminium gastronorm pan on top?

Edited by origamicrane, 06 March 2008 - 07:31 AM.

[CaptainJack]

I have a question:

If you do this for service how can you minimize wastage? if you SV 15 lamb cutlets and then only sell 2 for service what do you do with the rest? What about having sous vide lamb on the menu and then running out?
Sorry this is more of a logistical thing, but I am interested to see how restaurants get around the very long cooking times and inflexibility of the technique?

[origamicrane]

each cutlet would be individually vacuum packed and pre cooked, then cooled quickly and then put back into the fridge/freezer until required for service.
When an order comes in, you would stick 1 of the lamb cutlets into the water bath and bring it up to temperature.

[joesan]

Origamicrane - I bought a similar unit to the one you asked about off of eBay. It works well but the problem is that the control of the unit is analog so it is a little difficult to set the temperature correctly however once set they are pretty good. I ended up Pidding mine as it is a lot easier just to punch in the correct temperature digitally.

One thing that I was thinking about trying with my unmodified unit is that it could effectively be used like a low cost Thermomix. Set the nice low temperature and activate the stirrer and you could make a nice hollandaise or risotto with little manual intervention. I haven't bought one of the special stir bars yet but plan on getting one from eBay.

[nathanm]

There are many options here.

The first big decision is between SV served immediately, and SV that is chilled, stored and reheated.

1. For very fast cooked items, you can cook to order and serve. Most fish dishes would be a good example, because I like cooking fish at a lower temp then would be a good idea for cook-chill-store. Cooking time is kept short so they can be cooked to order in the water bath or combi oven. The key to short times is to keep the pieces thin - cutting the thickness in half cuts cooking time by a factor of 4.

2. Food cooked up to sterilizing time-temperatures combinations (i.e. the FDA time-temperture tables) can be held at 130F/54C (or cooking temperature if higher than that) all through service. If you sell them - great - use them directly. If you don't sell them then at the end of service you can rapidly chill them and refriderate and treat like cook-chill-store SV - see below.

3. Or you can do cook-chill-store from the onset, in which case you cook the food SV, then rapidly chill (immerse in ice water, or use blast chiller).

4. Regardless of whether you chill right after cooking, or after service store the cooled bags no more than 4 days at 7C/45F, or 7 days at 5C/41F, or 1C/34F for 30 days (this is US FDA SV rules). Or if you freeze them, you have much longer. Reheat by putting into a water bath or combi-oven. The time table for reheating is the same as cooking in the first place - at least to come up to tempertaure.

So, as a pratical matter, with lamb cutlets, I would cook them at 130F/54C, probably for one to several hours (depends on cut of lamb, how tender I want them). I would hold them at that temp during service. If they don't sell do the chill-store at end of service. Then store cold until ordered at which point you can reheat them. However, once you have chilled them, keep them cold until reheat and serving - don't take them out reheat then re-chill etc.

With braised meat - say lamb shanks instead of cutlets, cooking time would be more like 160F/71C for 8 hours. You can then hold them during service at anywhere from 135F/58C to 160F/71C. If you don't sell them the first service then once again you chill and store.

Depending on what effect you want you could do final sear at the end, or at the beginning.

[nathanm]

Origamicrane - I bought a similar unit to the one you asked about off of eBay. It works well but the problem is that the control of the unit is analog so it is a little difficult to set the temperature correctly however once set they are pretty good. I ended up Pidding mine as it is a lot easier just to punch in the correct temperature digitally.

One thing that I was thinking about trying with my unmodified unit is that it could effectively be used like a low cost Thermomix. Set the nice low temperature and activate the stirrer and you could make a nice hollandaise or risotto with little manual intervention. I haven't bought one of the special stir bars yet but plan on getting one from eBay.

These things are great - I have several. I like them particularly for hydrating (dissolving) hydrocolloids. For SV they work fine. Note that you really must stir them - so those with integral magnetic stirrers work best. Also, you need to have one that has a temperature probe. The best ones are digital with a built in PID contoroller, but naturally they are more expensive. As mentioned above a PID controller can also be added to simple magnetic stirrer/hotplate if you into a bit of electronics hardware hacking.

[Mallet]

A few more sous-vide experiments from a recent game diner (link)

[SignGuy]

Any thoughts on alternatives to hook your SousVideNMagic to?

I recently purchased a SousVideMagic unit so I could start experimenting. It arrived in good shape, and seems to work well. I then spent some time agonizing about the best heating unit to use it with - my first thought was a large. commercial type rice cooker, but I was having a hard time justifying the $300 cost.

I then purchased an Aroma brand home rice cooker at Sams Club (for $25!) and gave it a try - it seems to work fine, although clearly capacity is limited. So my plan for now is to use it and see how it works...

But, a few days later I ran across another option that seems ideal, although I have not seen anyone talk about using it instead of a rice cooker. What I saw was a free-standing table top "steam table" type warmer which is designed to be filled with water and than have a standard restaurant pan inserted into it. It seems like it would work great -cost is only about $100, it has major capacity compared to even the big rice cookers, it is designed to be able to maintain temp at 140 degrees + so should be able to cycle on and generate heat quickly, appears to have the coils on the bottom (not sides) like a rice cooker so should be decent for convection, is all stainless stell, and is rated at 1200 watts so should be ok with the controller. Almost seems to good to be true!

I'd appreciate any thoughts or input on if this would be a good idea, or if I should stick to a rice cooker...

Thanks!

[e_monster]

If you are on a budget, an inexpensive alternative that works well for larger volumes are the Rival tabletop roasters. I use one when I am cooking large cuts of meet like brisket or a rack of ribs. I use my smaller Presto multi-cooker for anything that will fit in it because the temperature stabilizes so quickly and there is rarely any overshoot.

There is a caveat with the table top roasters, you will need to tweak PID parameters and it takes some time for the temperature to become stable. Also, a $10 aquarium air pump is useful for making sure that there is enough circulation to keep the water temperature uniform since the heat comes for the sides (hence little natural convection). They run about $50 from Amazon and places like Fry's Electronics (if they have those where you live).

[DouglasBaldwin]

Up thread, pounce mentioned using a counter top food warmer/steam table with a PID. When using a swamp cooler water pump to circulate the water, he said it worked just as well as an immersion circulator.

If a water pump (or air bubbler) is not necessary in a rice cooker, it may not be necessary in for a counter top food warmer either. Since I have an Auber PID and a food warmer, I will experiment with them this coming week and report back.

[Kerry Beal]

Any thoughts on alternatives to hook your SousVideNMagic to?

I recently purchased a SousVideMagic unit so I could start experimenting.  It arrived in good shape, and seems to work well.  I then spent some time agonizing about the best heating unit to use it with - my first thought was  a large. commercial type rice cooker, but I was having a hard time justifying the $300 cost. 

I then purchased an Aroma brand home rice cooker at Sams Club (for $25!) and gave it a try - it seems to work fine, although clearly capacity is limited.  So my plan for now is to use it and see how it works...

But, a few days later I ran across another option that seems ideal, although I have not seen anyone talk about using it instead of a rice cooker.  What I saw was a free-standing table top "steam table" type warmer which is designed to be filled with water and than have a standard restaurant pan inserted into it.  It seems like it would work great -cost is only about $100, it has major capacity compared to even the big rice cookers, it is designed to be able to maintain temp at 140 degrees + so should be able to cycle on and generate heat quickly, appears to have the coils on the bottom (not sides) like a rice cooker so should be decent for convection, is all stainless stell, and is rated at 1200 watts so should be ok with the controller.  Almost seems to good to be true!

I'd appreciate any thoughts or input on if this would be a good idea, or if I should stick to a rice cooker...

Thanks!

I think it's a great idea. Particularly if the coils are all on the bottom. I have been using an old slow cooker with great success with the SousVideMagic and have wondered about something with a larger capacity for grander projects.

Love to have a link to the steam table warmer you have found.

[pounce]

although I have not seen anyone talk about using it instead of a rice cooker.  What I saw was a free-standing table top "steam table" type warmer which is designed to be filled with water and than have a standard restaurant pan inserted into it.

http://forums.egulle...dpost&p=1517668

As mentioned I use a counter steam table/food warmer unit. Here is what I like about it:

It has a drain spigot. I set it up and let it run next to the sink so when I am done I just open the spigot to drain.
I can put large items in it. Full racks etc.
I can use it as a steam table :)

Note: I use the unit without putting another hotel pan in it. In other words when doing SV I am not using it like a steam table. I also fill it with hot water instead of letting the unit bring the water all the way from cold up to cooking temp.

I do mostly use my Julabo unit with the steam table, but for the weeks I was testing and using the PID it worked very well. I'm going to set up a friend that lives at a hunting ranch with the PID setup and a steam table unit like mine so he can us it with the all the elk and other game they seem to keep disassembling.

Edited by pounce, 09 March 2008 - 07:17 AM.

[manwith8ovens]

We have some experiences using using PID temperature controllers like SousVideMagic, J-Kem PID temperature controller, .... etc.
Here is what we find:
- always set the baine marie (steam table)'s thermostatic control to highest, this way your controller can do all the controlling.
- you will get better stability and heat distribution if the baine marie uses embedded resistive heating elements and has good insulation.
- you get better results (stability, homogeneousness) if you don't use inserts having another layer of hot water bath. But for long term cooking (over 24 hours), using another s/s inserts over another water bath is acceptable.
- because baine marie dimension has big surface area to depth ratio, this present problems of greater heat loss, less heat convection and more crevices for cold spots.
- always make sure your sensor is not touching the food pouches.

It is perfect for bulky items like whole beef short ribs and whole rack of side ribs.
Yes, steam table is a viable SV cooker for long term SV cooking.
Have fun!

[MikeTMD]

There is certainly more than one type of equipment that can be used for successful SV application - my strong preference is still immersion circulators.

I hate to anger anyone, esp. pounce and e_monster - but amateur SV equipment will yield corresponding results. Personally, I had to wait for two years to buy my set, and there is still a lot of ground to cover. Granted, everybody sets up their own benchmarks, but just like you need a NASCAR-type car to take part in a NASCAR race - one needs proper SV equipment to cook SV. It's just that simple.

PID controllers and rice cookers create an illusion of SV cooking - an acceptable alternative for some, but make no mistake about it - it's not the real thing.

[e_monster]

MikeTMD,

I don't know where you have come by this (incorrect) belief that using an Auber PID makes a system not TRUE SV. You are simply wrong. There are at least two list members who have both an Auber PID and a lab-quality immersion circulator and one has posted that they get the same quality of results with an Auber setup although it is not as convenient as using a lab-quality immersion circulator.

Since there is at least one person that has your 'Nascar' setup and a low-budget setup like mine who says that the results are identical in quality, I tend to give credence to that person rather than to you since you have no experience with a setup like mine

You can do professional quality sous-vide with an Auber PID and an appropriate heat source (and, in some cases, a $10 aquarium air pump). It does require some extra work (tuning the PID parameters to the heat source). It would certainly be more convenient to have an immersion circulator, but it is not necessary. (NOTE: I am not saying that I would use a setup like mine in a professional environment -- but that is not because of the quality of the food that one can produce with it.)

Please provide the background that you have used to come to your conclusions rather than making blanket proclamations without a hint as to what experience provides the foundation for your claim. As far as I can tell, you have no experience with a setup like mine (or you did not tune it correctly) and so have no basis for comparison.

If you have an empirical basis for your claim, please share it. Otherwise, please stop making pronouncements of fact that are pure conjecture on your part.

I hesitate to post because you have shown a tendency to flame people that disagree with you. However, I am afraid that someone will read your posting and think that you know what your talking about in this regard, and I would hate for someone to think that they need to spend hundreds of dollars more than they actually do just because you have decided that an Auber PID is not capable of producing excellent results.

Given your past mis-statements about the role of vacuum-sealing in the killing of pathogens during SV cooking, I would think that you would tone down the disrespect in your posts and offer them as your opinion rather than fact. But hey, what do I know I don't have a NASCAR setup.

[origamicrane]

Make up your own minds.

these manufacturers all sell IC units as well as unstirred waterbaths for sous vide

http://www.cliftonfo...co.uk/range.htm

http://www.cuisinete...rmal-baths.html

http://www.julabo-so...m/products3.htm

and as far as I can tell a pid crockpot/ricecooker is a cheap homemade unstirred water bath.

Some professional chefs upthread have said, they use a combi steam oven for sous vide.

[joesan]

I also strongly disagree with MikeTMDs assertions - they are unfounded and demonstrably wrong.

I have used both a low end setup (simple heating coil and cheap eBay PID) and a high end laboratory immersion circulator. There was NO difference in the quality of what was produced. There may be some greater ease in punching in 51.3C into the digital high end stuff but I can guarantee there are no end user perceptible differences if you are careful. As many of us here are hobbyist cooks it is important that people realise that great results are achievable with some budget equipment and plenty of care and attention, and are not put off by equipment snobbery.

Anyway the two solutions use extremely close technologies i.e. PID electronics and methodology with some only lacking the circulation effect of the immersion circulator. As many of us know even the circulation can be achieved cheaply with an aquarium bubbler or other pump.

If you break open a laboratory circulator what do you see - PID controller circuit, heating element and pump. If you put together a budget system what do you have - PID controller circuit, heating element and pump. They are the same thing! It is not voodoo here it's mathematics, electronics and physics.

Cooking SV does not require 0.01C accuracy and it is foolish to believe that it does when so many other variables are uncontrolled in our cooking.

So I would urge anyone wanting to try this - don't be discouraged by some - get yourself a cheap PID controller and nice heat source (electric coil, rice warmer, steam table, crock pot whatever) and you can really experience quantum improvements in the quality of your cooking especially of proteins like meat and fish.

[origamicrane]

has anyone done sous vide curry
or sous vide rice dishes?
I am looking specifically at risotto or paella?

Usually for curries you marinade the meat and use yoghurt to tenderise.
Vacuum packing would reduce the marinating time and depending on the cut of meat cooking sous vide will help tenderise could we omit the yoghurt?
Also the area of interest for me is the flavour concentration of sous vide cooking would mean that the amount of garlic and other spices would have be reduced alot.
Seeing as spice like saffron are expensive I would imagine this to be a plus point for sous vide indian cuisine.

And for risotto and paella I am wondering if sous vide could help in reducing the labour required to cook these dishes. Just measure the rice and the stock, seal and drop it into a waterbath.
Is there an optimum temperature for sous vide rice?

[pounce]

I've used the bath to make GABA brown rice. Kept it at 104 for a few hours and then finished off in a cheap rice cooker.

I'm not convinced SV is going to get you good results for paella. Different perhaps. I'm certainly no expert, but the process for paella asks for crispy caramelized bottom (socarrat) that you aren't going to get with SV.

[joesan]

I must say I am not convinced that there would be many benefits of cooking risotto SV either. I am reminded of the old saying that "when you only have a hammer every problem begins to look like a nail"!

...but am always open to a bit of experimentation and look forward to seeing if it does work well.

[jackal10]

Curry, risotto and paella are different and have different cooking requirements.
The key to meat curry is cooking the protein, for which sous vide works well. I would put it raw in the bag with a well made curry sauce, and cook at say 63C (for chicken) for 12 hours. The long slow cooking will dissolve the collagen, while not toughening the meat fibres. I would suggest it would also replace the marination.

Risotto's key is the release controlled gelatanisation of the starch, for which I'm doubt if the long cooking of sous-vide helps. Temperature would need to be above the gelatanisation point, around 80C

Paella is different again, and my impression is that the process is various cooked meats and shellfish together with rice. Sous vide will help with the proteins, cooked seperately, but not really with the rice, except for convenience of handling, like boil-in-the-bag rice

[origamicrane]

I've used the bath to make GABA brown rice.  Kept it at 104 for a few hours and then finished off in a cheap rice cooker.

I'm not convinced SV is going to get you good results for paella. Different perhaps.  I'm certainly no expert, but the process for paella asks for crispy caramelized bottom (socarrat) that you aren't going to get with SV.

Hi thanks for replying.

When you cooked the rice did you reduce the amount of water you used?
As I would imagine that as there is no steam lose the amount of water required to cook the rice would be less then in a rice cooker?
Also what texture did you get after the few hours at 104?
was it edible? as i had the starch cooked? or was it just fully rehydrated rice?

Also for paella I am thinking you could SV the rice and then finish it off on top of a stove to get the socarrat?

think i will have to give thi a try

[Mallet]

pouce, did you mean 140? 104 seems low (and is firmly in the "danger zone" , especially for a couple hours cooking time).

Cheers,
Martin

[nathanm]

If you break open a laboratory circulator what do you see - PID controller circuit, heating element and pump. If you put together a budget system what do you have - PID controller circuit, heating element and pump. They are the same thing! It is not voodoo here it's mathematics, electronics and physics.

This states the situation very well.

The main variation between water baths is wattage, water movement and PID control.

To plug into a standard US electrical circuit, all of the devices discussed are 1800 watts or below. You get faster heat up with 208/220/250 volt, but most water baths do not feature this (but you can build or buy them that do).

Commercial laboratory water baths have components chosen to do the job well.

You can approximate those results with re-purposed components like Auber instruments controller, rice cookers, steam tables and so forth. The main issues that you need to watch are getting PID parameters adjusted properly (or use automatic tuning PID), and making sure that the water is stirred.

If it is all set up properly there is no difference in functionality between this and a commercial water bath.

On the other hand, if you don't stir the water you could get temperture stratification. If the temperure sensor is sensing unstirred water it will do the wrong thing. If the PID parameters are set wrong it won't control well. These are all simple to solve.