724 replies to this topic

[pounce]

Actually you would want the lowest gph you could find for a gentle stir of water. 

I don't agree with this. You want as much as possible. There is a benefit in having fast moving water over a gentle stir.

If you look up thread at some of my posts there is existing discussion about using fish tank pumps.

A swamp cooler pump is the best I have used so far. They are desinged for long running periods and can be had in the $20 range. Submersible pumps for fish tanks are questionable over time given temps much higher than they expect.

[Blamo]

Huh. It's that loud? My Lauda is quiet as a mouse.

Yes, unfortunately. I thought perhaps it was due to being unclean, so I took it apart and meticulously scrubbed each part. It's just as loud now as it was when it arrived from Ebay. Outside of the sound, it works perfectly fine. I've run it for as long as 12 hours straight, and it held temperature within .2-.3 degrees C (confirmed by a seperated thermometer).

[rasputin1072]

it might work for scallopine n stuff... but what about the good ol maillard ??
your meat will lack flavor ?!... ?? 


cheers

t.

Quite right. Thats why sous vide cooked food is commonly seared after cooking . I cook mine to a slight bit lower than 160 to account for the high heat afterwards. Of course that was for a catering party, if you are eating it right away it doesn't really matter.

[Daniel]

Great thread and thanks for everything, especially Mr. Nathan..

Just got the Polyscience big boy a month ago.. Have been playing around alot.. Have a couple of duck breasts in now with different things from chocolate to maple sugar and anise, juniper berry and things.. Cooking at 54.4 C since 2 am last night. Looking forward to eating them tonight..


Just wanted to say what a wonderful, informative, cool thread this is..

Edited by Daniel, 16 December 2007 - 11:47 AM.

[DocDougherty]

I suspect I should have returned it to the cooker at 55C for (how long?) to bring it back to temp before searing it.

Anna,
In a case like that I would cool the sous vide tank down to 120-125°F with some cold water and after chilling the meat put it back in the tank and leave it until I was ready to sear. The chilling will stop the cooking of the meat and at a water bath temperature of 125°F it shouldn't go beyond medium rare. When you sear it, the outside will heat up but the inside won't receive much of that heat, assuming you are using a really hot pan.

If it is going to be more than a couple of hours you might chill it as you did, and then put it back in the tank. For that I would just use Nathan's tables to figure out how long (selecting the right table based on the temperature difference rather than the end point temperature as Nathan suggested up-thread a ways)

Doc

[Anna N]

Thanks! I have gone all the way through this topic many times but don't remember anything about temperature difference but I am happy to search again!

I think I am pretty anal now about food safety as I am dealing with someone with a compromised immune system so I hesitate to do anything that I am not sure about. Cook and hold was not recommended so I am not sure I totally understand where I might get into trouble. I'm guessing a few hours in the fridge at close to 0C should not be a problem for a beef steak?

[Daniel]

I dont know if this has been discussed but, what about a pork and beans sous vide.. Using pork stock, presoaked or not beans, either smoked ham hock, fresh foot, maybe some duck skin, or some double smoked bacon chunks.. A little grade b Maple or brown sugar, or molasses added.

Maybe take the pork pieces out afterward and crisp or just remove and eat later..

I was thinking regular beans but now am thinking gigantes..

Edited by Daniel, 16 December 2007 - 02:02 PM.

[Daniel]

Well first attempt came out ok.. The meat was just slighty over cooked and I thought dry.. The meat was a medium dark pink and cooked so evenly..(have photos later) However, I was looking for a more meaty medium rare..My girl felt it was better then I thought.. We had it going for about 12 hours at 130. I might want to drop the temp to 122 and see the results.

I put a little chocolate in the sous vide bag.. I dont think it dried the meat out.. It did make a wonderful sauce..

Edited by Daniel, 16 December 2007 - 05:23 PM.

[Kerry Beal]

I dont know if this has been discussed but, what about a pork and beans sous vide.. Using pork stock, presoaked or not beans, either smoked ham hock, fresh foot, maybe some duck skin, or some double smoked bacon chunks..  A little grade b Maple or brown sugar, or molasses added.

Maybe take the pork pieces out afterward and crisp or just remove and eat later..

I was thinking regular beans but now am thinking gigantes..

I wonder if the beans would cook properly under sous vide conditions. It would be worth an experiment just to see what sort of time it would take to get them to soften. If it did work it would be a great way to get all the amazing flavours together for something like a modified cassoulet.

[slkinsey]

I'm wondering what would be the advantages of cooking beans sous vide? This doesn't seem like a food that would benefit from LT/LT cooking, so at the most you'd be sealing in aromatics.

[Daniel]

Just for my purpose with the beans.. I have to cook a bunch of things and to have one less thing that needs a burner or the oven would be a great help..

But obviously the finished product is the most important thing..

Edited by Daniel, 16 December 2007 - 07:34 PM.

[slkinsey]

Is it possible to sufficiently soften dried beans significantly below the simmer? This would be the major limiting factor.

[Anna N]

OK- now I see what you are getting at. Since I have always (so far) cooked to temperature, i.e., if I want 130F as final then I cook at 131F I wasn't understanding the temperature difference you meant. Thank you.

[jackal10]

I have a large ham from a neighbors pig (organic, free range, outdoor, home brine cured and then soaked to remove excess salt). I would like to cook it sous-vide.
Any idea as to time/temperature?

I'm inclined to say its just a large piece of meat and use 60C for 18hours or so, but could argue for anything from 55C to 75C.
Needs to have time for the collagen to dissolve

Suggestions?

[Daniel]

So here is the sous vide machine:



Bagged with an ounce of chocolate, some cinanmmon sticks, star anise, maple sugar, and a couple of other things..



Love the even cooking and I guess by a lot of people's preference, this would be ideal.. However, I am looking for a more rare finish..



Sliced and eventually I added the sauce back..

[Daniel]

Salmon cooked to finish at 113 F..

Simple salmon added truffle butter, salt and pepper..



It was really well cooked.. Had properties of both raw and cooked.. Had a really nice flake to it..



Bite:



It was super moist and flavorfull.. I put it in the fridge and enjoyed it cold as well..

[Dave Weinstein]

Oh, that sounds astounding.

I made up some truffle butter this weekend (Washington White Truffles), and that sounds like a lovely use.

And I can do salmon sous vide the old fashioned way (i.e. pot, thermometer, burner).

[DocDougherty]

I have a large ham from a neighbors pig (organic, free range, outdoor, home brine cured and then soaked to remove excess salt). I would like to cook it sous-vide.
Any idea as to time/temperature?
I'm inclined to say its just a large piece of meat and use 60C for 18hours or so, but could argue for anything from 55C to 75C.
Needs to have time for the collagen to dissolve
Suggestions?

I would be inclined to go a little longer than 18hr, but the temperature is about right (actually I would smoke it with apple wood for 12 hr@ 250°F, then @225°F until it reaches a core temperature of 190°F - about 23 hr total, but this is the sous vide forum so you get the sous vide answer). I do Tri-tip for 24hr@59°C and you are probably quite a bit thicker, so maybe 30-32hr. Others may have more experience with sous vide pork and thus provide more relevant guidance.

Doc

[TheSwede]

This is my low budget sous vide setup. Controller from Auberin, a pot and an electric plate. Note that Auberin doesn't recommend using an electric plate. Partially for safety reasons (although this plate actually has an adjustable independent thermostat shutoff), partially because I guess you will get a more even heat distribution with a rice cooker.

Nevertheless, this setup looks pretty promising. With some tweaking of the PID parameters I belive I can get it to keep stable within 1 C, although there will some uneven heat distribution in the pot unless you stir or add a pump.

[slkinsey]

Interesting setup. That is a very small volume water bath. What do you propose to cook in there?

[jmolinari]

I tried the exact same setup, except that instead of a PID i used an on/off temperature controller. It worked quite well. If i remember, it had the least overshoot if i set the hotplate to minimum.

Remember you'll have to retune the PID if you change the volume of water, the pot or the hotplate setting, so try to keep everything the same every time.

[TheSwede]

Interesting setup.  That is a very small volume water bath.  What do you propose to cook in there?

The pot isn't actually that small (12 cups), maybe it is the fish eye lens on my cellphone? I've manually sous vided two portions of cod in it without any problems, and I guess 2-3 portions of anything wouldn't be a problem.

But that was just a test setup. As jmolinari notes, it is better to tune the system to a specific volume of water so I think I will tune it to one of my larger pots just to have more flexibility. That will probably also increase the thermal stability of the system, but might increase the problem with different temperatures at different depth.

[wattacetti]

So here is the sous vide machine:

Wow - PolyScience 8306C. If I can stop taking 122 flights/year I might actually get around to buying one of these. Did you get it directly from them? And have you conducted your bean experiment yet?

[Daniel]

Yeh, I am pretty happy with the PolyScience machine... I purchased it through JB Prince..

I have yet to do the beans but, last night I made something..

Cooked a duck breast, lamb chops and some milk fed baby goat riblets..

The duck breast was salt and pepper..

The chops were done with garlic, butter, salt and pepper.

The riblets with Cajun Mustard.

They were all cooked for about 10 hours at 120 degrees F..

I seared them all before serving along side roasted radishes,parsnips, shallots, and garlic with cubed duck skin throw in at the end..

I was very happy with the lamb and not so happy with the duck..

I only cooked duck twice but, nothing has come close to pan searing a duck breast and finishing in the oven yet..

I would love to hear someone's favorite way to sous vide a duck breast.

Making duck legs confit is something I am so looking forward to..

[e_monster]

They were all cooked for about 10 hours at 120 degrees F..

120 degrees F sounds like a dangerous temperature to cook at for so long -- at that temperature you can be incubating some nasty microorganisms -- especially when cooking for a long time. My impression has been that for lengthy cooking 130 F is pretty much the minimum temperature that one can use without the water bath becoming an incubator.

Hopefully Nathan will chime in -- as he seems to have a very good handle on this topic.


Anyone?

[wattacetti]

I was very happy with the lamb and not so happy with the duck..

I only cooked duck twice but, nothing has come close to pan searing a duck breast and finishing in the oven yet..

I SV skinless duck breast similar to what NathanM and BryanZ have described: moulard breasts with salt, pepper, little bit of solidified duck fat at 130ºF for about 3 hours. When they come out I color them in a pan with some butter and a blowtorch. Maillard goodness, evenly-colored tender duck.

Still playing with the best way to do crispy skin as accompaniment. Haven't quite worked out the crispy transparent skin chip technique but have tried and like Blumenthal's skin crochet.

[Ruth]

Moulard or mallard?

[wattacetti]

Moulard. The domesticated variety that's generally used for foie gras production.

[BryanZ]

I was very happy with the lamb and not so happy with the duck..

I only cooked duck twice but, nothing has come close to pan searing a duck breast and finishing in the oven yet..

I SV skinless duck breast similar to what NathanM and BryanZ have described: moulard breasts with salt, pepper, little bit of solidified duck fat at 130ºF for about 3 hours. When they come out I color them in a pan with some butter and a blowtorch. Maillard goodness, evenly-colored tender duck.

Still playing with the best way to do crispy skin as accompaniment. Haven't quite worked out the crispy transparent skin chip technique but have tried and like Blumenthal's skin crochet.

I got 4 hours on thicker breasts, about 3 on thinner ones. As I've stated many times, as long as it's in moderation you'll be fine. Anywhere from 2.5-5 should be totally fine. I know some people like doing really short cooks, but I'm not sure I'm sold on any tangible benefit. I go at 55C. I've been cooking with S/P and foie gras butter in the bag.

I quickly sear in the pan. Don't bother with the blow torch.

For the crispy skin, obviously you take off the skin, season with salt and pepper (I use grains of paradise here), and press between two sheet pans with some foil or silpats. Cook at 325 until very crisp. It makes for a nice duck chip. It's not super thin, but it gives the CSV duck a bit more of that salty, duck fat/skin taste the everyone loves.

In general, CSV duck is quite different than a pan roast. The latter to me tastes heartier; the former more delicate. I like both very much.

[nathanm]

120 degrees F sounds like a dangerous temperature to cook at for so long -- at that temperature you can be incubating some nasty microorganisms -- especially when cooking for a long time. My impression has been that for lengthy cooking 130 F is pretty much the minimum temperature that one can use without the water bath becoming an incubator.

Hopefully Nathan will chime in -- as he seems to have a very good handle on this topic.

Anyone?

So, here is the story.

FDA rules say the lowest you can do to sterilize (i.e. kill pathogens) is 130F, for times given by tables elsewhere in the post (the FDA tables, not my timing tables). But basically 90 minutes at 130F is considered safe by FDA.

FDA says you can be below 130F for no more than 4 hours. So, technically speaking the FDA rules are OK with up to 4 hours at < 130F, but no more.

This is a guideline of course - it is a rule that is sometimes excessive, but sometimes not.

So, if you want to follow the FDA rules, then no more than 4 hours between refrigerator and done if less than 130F. Or, 130F for 90 minutes or MORE.

Does that mean that if you do 122F for 5 hours you will get sick? Probably not, but it is technically outside the rules.

Doing 120F for a really long time could be a problem however