427 replies to this topic

[Mayur]

Sorry - that was a typo. 60C is 140F - for 36 hours, which is also the temp and time that Heston Blumenthal uses for his famous pork belly (which, little known, he brines first). I'll look up the Ducasse recipes for you later to give more details.

Thanks SO much! My fault as well, though; I should have deduced that the celsius was the right metric.

As for cleaning the bath: The main reason for my selecting this particular unit was that it's new and thus hasn't been subjected to the potential nastiness of lab use. I've still cleaned it with some serious chemical solvents (I have lab worker friends of my own!) and it's sparkling at the moment.

I'll let you know how the ribs went!

[nathanm]

You have many choices. Ducasse does the ribs as described above.

I personally like them medium rare, so I do short ribs in a 131F/55C water bath for 24 hours. Past 24 hours the flavor isn't as intense. I had some today, as matter of fact.

However, you asked about Daniel Boulud - he does his short ribs in the style of a convential braise so the temp is higher. He does them at 66C for 24 hours.

Nathan

[slkinsey]

The one thing that is amazing about doing short ribs LTLT sous vide is the extent to which any flavorings completely permeate the meat. I included a small (maybe 2 inch) branch of fresh rosemary in a fairly large batch of short ribs I did for 36 hours. It was incredible the way every bit of the beef was infused with rosemary flavor. Even when I deliberately sampled meat from the innermost part of the short rib, it was flavored with rosemary.

[UnConundrum]

Nathan, 55C for 24 hours? Weren't they rather tough yet?

Has anyone noticed an "off" taste with the longer cooks....48+ hours? I've tried some 72 hour briskets, and noticed this taste that a friend has described as a "blood" taste. Anyone else notice this?

[Mayur]

Hmm; lotsa options!

Given that I have this precise temperature control at my fingertips, I'll try for as low and slow as I can get...

nathan: How do you do your short ribs? Any chance you could post a step-by-step? I'm curious as to how 55 C for 24 hours turns out; does this yield something with the texture of a good steak, then, or something with an actual braised meat mouth feel?

Thanks in advance!

[nathanm]

Nathan, 55C for 24 hours?  Weren't they rather tough yet? 

They are fine - not tough at all. They get more tender as you go -all the way out to 72 hours which is the longest i have done. But for these short ribs (bonless, from Costco in a big pack) they are plenty good to eat at 24 hours.

[BryanZ]

I've just read through most every sous-vide thread on eG, but I have one nagging question about the actual setup/function of the circulating water bath.

I thought I read in a different thread that circulating water baths have a hook-up for a water input. Does this mean they have a some sort of input to which you have to attach to a hose? Can't you just pour water in and the pump inside the unit will circulate the water by itself? I hope I'm not being unclear, but I just don't want to buy something that I won't be able to use.

Sorry for missing out on a pretty obvious part of sous-vide technology. I'm excited to invest in the equipment and make sous-vide cooking my holiday project.

[nathanm]

water baths typically have a pump and an inlet and outlet. This is used to circulate water through various tanks or scientific intstuments. You typically just connect input to outlet with a short tube.

Nathan

[BryanZ]

What's the best kind of fuel to use when blowtorching a sous vide protein? I know there has been some disagreement about this on other threads but what type of fuel canister should I be buying?

[johnder]

While you can probably buy one of those fancy smancy "gourmet" mini blow torches from Williams Sonoma or the like, I much prefer the cheaper bernzomatic torches you find in the local home center. One of these canisters will last quite a long time. You will have two choices, either pure propane, or MAPP gas, which burns hotter. I personally use the propane one.

[BryanZ]

I've always used propane with my blowtorch, but I thought there was some concern as to the safety of a propane flame when in direct contact with food to be consumed. I'm aware that most grilling is done w/ propane but isn't this different since you risk "contaminating" your food with byproducts from unburned propane (or something)

[Mayur]

Stupid question #umpteen:

Do you sear your ribs before or after sous vide braising, Nathan?

[Marc Olson]

Bryan,

The Lauda pump that I purchased works just fine with direct immersion. It does have a provision for attaching a hose for an external tank but it's not required.

Marc

[snekse]

Cheaper would be a crock pot and a PID, but a DIY project.

PID being?

My crockpot's "Low" setting is about 170 degrees. I've been thinking about getting a smaller one just for Sous Vide, but if I can regulate the temperature some other way, I might consider that. Like a reverse Wine-Stat

Here's what Rival has to say about crockpot temperatures.

We can not specify temperature ranges for the "High" or "Low" settings. Our slow cookers differentiate "High" and "Low" by wattage. These wattages are set to ensure that a standard food load (as described in AHAM spec SC-1-1979) will reach a safe internal temperature within approximately four hours. The wattage required to do this is different for different models, and many variables are involved; (start temperature, food load, room temperature, etc.). Eventually slow cookers will reach a maximum temperature, however the temperature will be different for different environmental conditions and different food loads. Given enough time most food loads will reach the same maximum temperature on both "Low" and "High."

[jsolomon]

From Wikipedia

A Proportional-Integral-Derivative controller or PID controller is a common feedback loop component in industrial control applications

Further info:

Ebay search on "pid controller"

Edited by jsolomon, 15 December 2005 - 03:49 PM.

[nathanm]

Do you sear your ribs before or after sous vide braising, Nathan?

I sear afterwards, because I like the sear crust to be crispy, and it isn't if you sear first.

[slkinsey]

I guess there really isn't much value to keeping the bones in when you cook short ribs sous vide.

[Mayur]

To bring the thread back to page 1 (!):

Any experience with doing lobster tail sous vide? Suggestions on time and temperature, perhaps? I'm wondering whether a fast immersion at 190 (Keller butter poaching style) is the way to go, or whether LTLT will help (or, even better, if there's a particular "alchemy temperature" that does for it something parallel to what 104 F does for cooking salmon fillet).

[nathanm]

I have done lobster sous vide several times. You need to get the lobster out of teh shell and there are two approaches to this. One is to kill the lobster and cut it up, removing flesh from shell. The other approach is to briefly pour hot (but not boiling) water over it, then proceed to cut it up. This is what Keller, and several other chefs, suggests. The hot water is just poured over the lobster, then poured off, so is only on the lobster for seconds. The advantage to the hot water method is that it loosens the flesh from the shell, claws etc.

Once you have the lobster meat separated (claw or tail) put into a sous vide bag - I ususally include some butter, and potentially some seasoning depending on teh recipe. I cook it at 45C/113F until cooked through (depends on thickness - see the fish time tables in this thread).

Lobster comes out wonderfully sous vide - it is tender and perfectly cooked.

I do shrimp and prawns at 45C/113F also.

[DocDougherty]

What's the best kind of fuel to use when blowtorching a sous vide protein?  I know there has been some disagreement about this on other threads but what type of fuel canister should I be buying?

I don't use a "fuel" per se, just a 1200W dual temperature electric heat gun from the local Ace hardware store. On high it gets up to 1000F which is enough to roast a pepper or brown a turkey or remove paint.

Doc

[BryanZ]

Good idea with the heat gun. I've got a couple of those lying around, so I'll give them a try.

My water bath from eBay is currently in transit--in Kansas now-- and should be here by the end of the week. I'm anxious to start experimenting.

[Ruth]

My water bath from eBay is currently in transit--in Kansas now-- and should be here by the end of the week.  I'm anxious to start experimenting.

Bryan what have you ordered? Most of the water baths/circulators offered on eBay come with the caveat that it "powers on" but other functions have not been tested. Please tell us what brand and model you bought and whether or not it works as it should. I am desperate to have one but very timid about buying on eBay

[Mussina]

I bought an immersion circulator on ebay that worked perfectly. The seller had a ten day return policy. Unfortuately, the wire that attached to the temp. probe shorted out (I didn't know it shouldn't get wet) and the repair costs exceed the price I paid on ebay. I just bought another immersion heater (after getting confirmation from the seller that I could send it back if it didn't hold its temp.). Hopefully it will work as well as the first one -- and last longer than a few weeks!

[nathanm]

I have bought lots of items on ebay, and they almost always work. One water bath died after being used for a while, but it is hard to blame the seller because it worked for many months. There are risks in ebay, but that is also why things are cheap.

There are used laboratory equipment dealers that offer somewhat more in the way of checking that things work, but they are also more expensive.

[BryanZ]

Bryan what have you ordered? Most of the water baths/circulators offered on eBay come with the caveat that it "powers on" but other functions have not been tested. Please tell us what brand and model you bought and whether or not it works as it should. I am desperate to have one but very timid about buying on eBay

I purchased a VWR 1203. I looked up its specs. online and it looks pretty legitimate. It's not a circulator though, but I don't think that should be too much of an issue. I paid $150 + $25 shipping for it. Not super cheap but a hell of lot less expensive than if I had bought it new or tried to use a used equipment reseller.

This unit does not have a return policy on it. I did correspond with the seller, however, and he informed me that the unit does hold temperature etc. One wonders why a lab would throw out a perfectly good hot water bath, but I'm banking on some good luck.

On a separate note I have a sous vide questions that I haven't seen discussed yet:
How does one cook something like a duck breast sous vide? Does one have to render out the fat first, or will the sous vide cooking process provide sufficient temperatures to melt that fat away? Any suggestions?

[nathanm]

On a separate note I have a sous vide questions that I haven't seen discussed yet:
How does one cook something like a duck breast sous vide?  Does one have to render out the fat first, or will the sous vide cooking process provide sufficient temperatures to melt that fat away?  Any suggestions?

There are as many ways to cook duck breast sous vide as there are to cook it in other ways.

The classic French approach to duck breast is to treat duck breast like the red meat that it is and cook it to medium rare.

I use a water bath at 131F/55C, I cook until the core reaches 130F/54.4C (see tables in this thread for the times). If you like you can then let it cook an additional there 20 min to 30 min for food safety.

Many French chefs serve duck breast even more rare than this - cooking only to 120F/49C. This is a matter of personal preference. A bunch of other chefs will worry about cooking it at that low temp and will cook it at 141F/61C instead, but I don't like like that hot.

You could, in principle, cook duck breast for a very long time (12 to 36 hours) at low tempertaure (I would use 131F/55C) to tenderize it similar to other kinds of red meat. Obviously this depends on the ducks as to whether the breast meat is tough or not. Given the duck that I use, I have not had to do this, but it is an interesting possibility. It would also be interesting for duck legs - traditionally one cooks them at higher temperature because the legs are tougher, but with long time cooking sous vide they might be fine this way. Something to try...

No fat will render at any of these temperatures, so you have two choices - serve the breast without the skin, or crisp the skin by searing under intense heat (broiler, blowtorch, griddle). Any method of cooking which renders the fat will ruin the meat under the skin. If you really want duck skin that is thin and crispy without a fat layer, you have to remove it from the meat and cook it separately.

Or you can overcook the duck breast, if you prefer (can you detect my point of view ), by cooking it at higher temperature. As an example, you can make duck breast confit by cooking it at 180F/82C - there is a whole thread on duck confit that discusses sous vide approaches. These approaches work for the breast too. Traditionally one uses legs because they were not useful for other dishes (too tough) so they were cooked as confit to make them tender and also preserve them.

Note that even cooked at confit temperatures for 8-12 hours, the skin will not render all of its fat, and will still need to be crisped or seared.

[Ted Hudgins]

I'm goint to try stone crab claws sous vide and see how they turn out. My local fish monger has agreed to sell me 5 pounds of "green" claws off their boat and we will then begin the experiments.

First, there's the cooking times & temps. Is 113F internal temp enough? I'm thinking that quick chilling it in a super saturated brine solution should get the little buggers cooled off pretty quickly.

I've been warned that if we try & freeze the claws after they've been cooked, the sharp points of the shells usually puncture the bags and they get freezer burnt. Those little "napkins" that the butcher ships put under individually wrapped steaks at the grocery store are suppoed to help a little, but probably not enough.

My friend Jacques' bottom line on this is that if we can figure out a way to do this and keep the claws frozen, we may be able to supply claws on a year round basis and make a buck or two out of it.

I'll post updates as we learn more.

[nathanm]

Butchers use a special tough wrap called bone guard to prevent puncturing vacuum packing bags that have meat on the bone (like rack of lamb). You can buy it from meat supply place (on the internet), but a small wad (i.e. more than one layer) of aluminum foil over the sharp parts also works pretty well, particularly for sous vide cooking because it conducts heat pretty well.

I have not cooked crab, but I would start at 113F/45C. It works for fish, shrimp and lobster, so it should work for crab.

For timing use the tables based on the thickest part of the claw, then add some time. I am not sure how much because I don't have any data for the insulating effect of the shell. I have not tried cooking crab claws.

The best approach is to use a temperature probe - directions in this thread talk about how to do that using a piece of foam weatherstripping to keep the bag sealed. Of course it is hard to get a temperature probe in a crab claw, but you certainly could drill a hole in the shell up front. That is what I would do, particulary if you plan on doing a lot of these....

Another option would be shelling them raw. This takes the traditional whacking of the claw at the table out of the experience.

Let us know how it turns out.

[BryanZ]

So I got my water bath tonight (though unfortunately it arrived at my house after dinner). Anyway, after cleaning it with every solvent I had on hand, I attempted to set it up on my counter. I warn you, it's not a good idea to move a water bath when filled (it's 25 lbs without water and who knows how much when filled). Needless to say, I drenched myself, my countertop, my floor, etc.

Some have asked as to this water bath's condition and ability to maintain temperature. So far it seems pretty good. A little tempermental with the control knob (it's not exactly calibrated perfectly), but I think once I've got it at a set temperature it will stay there. I've only had it for a couple hours, so I'm still working that out.

I'll be posting my attempts at scallops, jumbo shrimp, wild salmon, duck breast, short rib, and god-knows-what-else sous vide over the coming days. For now, here's my equipment:


Foodsaver v1205 with extended vacuum and instant seal. I decided that these two features were important and finding a model that had both these and a reasonable price was quite annoying.





The water bath with my thermometer inside it. I need to get that temperature down to 45 C.

[Ruth]

Thanks Bryan. I have everything else. Now I have to get back onto eBay once again and find one of those water baths. Please don't forget to post your results,