26 replies to this topic

[mskerr]

Growing up near Philly, I thought Italian food was pasta with red sauce, garlic bread, meatball sandwiches, calzones, and salami and cheese. (All of which I love, I should mention!) The more I learn about Italian cooking, I realize how much bigger it is than my much-beloved Italian-American childhood favorites. Not having been to Italy yet, nor even to a really authentic Italian restaurant, nor hanging out with any Italian grandmas (I grew up in, apparently, one of the few families in my area where none of the women were interested/skilled in cooking whatsoever), I find genuine Italian cuisine to be just about as mysterious as, say, Indonesian.
How would you describe Italian cuisine to a confused but absolutely intrigued person like myself?
Cheers!

[Keith_W]

I think most will agree with these statements:

- Italian food can be simple, or it can be complex - but it is mostly simple.
- Italian food is seasonal and emphasizes the quality of the produce.
- Italian food exhibits regional variations such that there might not be a definitive version of one dish

[Hassouni]

Italian food always struck me as very similar in concept to Japanese - very simple treatments of very fresh, seasonal food, to let the base ingredient shine forth.

[Mjx]

What Hassouni said.

I grew up in Florence, so my take on this is obviously biased by that, but I'd describe the fundamental difference between traditional Italian food and Italian-American food as a question of restraint v. excess. I've eaten all over the northern half of Italy (somehow, I've never made it further south than Rome), and the restraint may more evident in Tuscany than Emilia Romagna, but I'd still argue that restraint is always present in traditional Italian cooking. The example that leaps to mind is the two different ways pasta is sauced: in Italy, it's usual to toss pasta in a modest amount of sauce, then serve it; In the Italian-American tradition, it goes on top after it's served out, and usually a lot more is used (or so it seems, although its sitting on top no doubt emphasizes the effect).

My own experience is that Italy is fairly conservative about food, and tends to stick with some version of the traditional preparations (although 'convenience' foods are making inroads, and I've certainly come across Italians who cannot cook and only do so reluctantly); even modernist cooking actively embraces traditional flavours, often moving into pure nostalgia (this is not a criticicsm, by the way).

To me, Italian-American cooking means traditional Italian preparations adapted by Italian immigrants, owing to the absence of usual ingredients/affordability of previously too-expensive ingredients (not the careful, accurate recreation of traditional Italian favourtes, nor the 'Italian' dishes that have no basis in an Italian tradition, but merely happen to contain some sort of tomato or olive product).

Oddly, I've had very little exposure to Italian-American cooking: 'Sunday Gravy'? Never heard of it until I came across it in Cook's Illustrated, and apparently, it's something huge for many Italian-Americans. And it's bigness, it's so-much-ness, really encapsulates the excess (not necessarily a bad thing!) of Italian-American food. I can't think of any parallel to this meat+meat+meat+meatmeatmeat-fest in Italian cooking, but as I mentioned, I grew up in Tuscany, and Tuscans are kind of known for being cheap frugal; beans are really popular, no one is eating a serious bistecca on a regular basis, and traditional deserts run to the dry and the concentrated (e.g. torta della nonna, panforte), rather than creamy and rich.

But perhaps even more than the use of more of meat, it's in the use of dairly products, especially cheese, that the difference between Italian and Italian-American food really leaps out at me.
At least in savoury dishes, Italian food tends to either not involve dairy, or move it to the background: traditional ragù alla bolognese contains a good bit of milk or cream, but there's nothing creamy about the finished product; Italian lasagnas tend to use dustings of intensely flavoured cheeses, rather than a lot of soft, mild cheeses; cheese on pasta is a light snowfall, not a blizzard. My experience of Italian-American food is that it tends to involve alarming amounts of cheese, perhaps because back when the first waves of Italian immigrants reached the US, the traditional hard cheeses were impossible to find, so they compensated by using larger amounts of the milder available cheeses. This is pure hypothesis, obviously.

I'm hoping that some of the other Italian members who've sampled Italian-American cooking will add their perspectives on this.

[mskerr]

... I'd describe the fundamental difference between traditional Italian food and Italian-American food as a question of restraint v. excess...

But perhaps even more than the use of more of meat, it's in the use of dairly products, especially cheese, that the difference between Italian and Italian-American food really leaps out at me.
At least in savoury dishes, Italian food tends to either not involve dairy, or move it to the background: traditional ragù alla bolognese contains a good bit of milk or cream, but there's nothing creamy about the finished product; Italian lasagnas tend to use dustings of intensely flavoured cheeses, rather than a lot of soft, mild cheeses; cheese on pasta is a light snowfall, not a blizzard. My experience of Italian-American food is that it tends to involve alarming amounts of cheese, perhaps because back when the first waves of Italian immigrants reached the US, the traditional hard cheeses were impossible to find, so they compensated by using larger amounts of the milder available cheeses. This is pure hypothesis, obviously.

Cheers, Mjx, for your very thorough reply!

I agree about restraint vs. excess. I think restraint is more difficult in Italian-American cooking because our raw ingredients (tomatoes, olive oil, seafood...) are not as high-quality or flavorful in themselves as their Italian counterparts (from what I've heard), so it is more tempting to keep adding more ingredients to a dish to try to boost flavor rather than coaxing the maximum amount of flavor out of a few simple ingredients.

And on the cheese note - yes! Bang on. The ubiquitous massive pile of cheese on top of just about everything in the US is starting to really drive me nuts. Americanized-Mexican and Tex-Mex restaurants are particularly guilty of this, as well as down-home American restaurants. In a lot of the country, a salad still consists of a bowl of iceberg with a heap of shredded cheese on top. Yeah, I get it, we Americans love cheese and the bland stuff is pretty inexpensive here, but it's just gotten to be total overkill, in my opinion. I think I might start a different thread about this. It is really starting to bother me!

[Tri2Cook]

I don't have a lot of experience with authentic Italian but the thing that I like best about it compared to most Italian-American I've had is related to pasta dishes. It seems to me that Italian tends to lean towards pasta with a little something where Italian-American tends to lean towards something with a little pasta. Then again, maybe that's not an Italian vs Italian-American thing. Maybe it's an individual preference thing. I'm really not sure.

[naguere]

This dish of spaghetti, tomato and basil

is elegant,and simple. i find it charming.

Fresh produce, combined using a light touch. Very Italian.

Thanks to Cucina Italiana:

http://www.lacucinai...doro-e-basilico

Edited by naguere, 08 September 2012 - 06:10 AM.

[weinoo]

I agree about restraint vs. excess. I think restraint is more difficult in Italian-American cooking because our raw ingredients (tomatoes, olive oil, seafood...) are not as high-quality or flavorful in themselves as their Italian counterparts (from what I've heard),

At this point in our evolution, I don't agree with this at all. Great olive oil is available everywhere, be it from Italy, Spain, Turkey, California et.al. The tomatoes in my farmer's market this summer are amazing. And I'll put the fresh seafood I cook with (Maine lobsters, Peconic Bay scallops and Long Island littlenecks being just 3 quick examples) up against the best stuff from anywhere.

It seems to me that Italian tends to lean towards pasta with a little something where Italian-American tends to lean towards something with a little pasta.

As Marcella, Giuliano and Mario taught all of us Italophiles early on, the dish is about the pasta; anything else is condiment.

[Mjx]

I agree about restraint vs. excess. I think restraint is more difficult in Italian-American cooking because our raw ingredients (tomatoes, olive oil, seafood...) are not as high-quality or flavorful in themselves as their Italian counterparts (from what I've heard),

At this point in our evolution, I don't agree with this at all. Great olive oil is available everywhere, be it from Italy, Spain, Turkey, California et.al. The tomatoes in my farmer's market this summer are amazing. And I'll put the fresh seafood I cook with (Maine lobsters, Peconic Bay scallops and Long Island littlenecks being just 3 quick examples) up against the best stuff from anywhere.

. . . .

I wonder whether it wasn't once true, however, and the habits that inferior (or unfamiliar) ingredients created have never changed to reflect the fact that great stuff is now available. I do think access to ingredients and quantities of ingredients that might have been entirely unthinkable back in Italy contributed to the tendency to 'big up' once-restrained dishes (in Italy itself, many dishes have their roots in 'la miseria', or abject povery, which was what prompted most of the immigrants to leave Italy in the first waves of emigration to the US).

[weinoo]

I wonder whether it wasn't once true, however, and the habits that inferior (or unfamiliar) ingredients created have never changed to reflect the fact that great stuff is now available.

Yes, great point.

[mskerr]

I wonder whether it wasn't once true, however, and the habits that inferior (or unfamiliar) ingredients created have never changed to reflect the fact that great stuff is now available.

Yes, great point.

I agree as well!

I shouldn't have generalized so much. I don't mean that we don't have good raw ingredients, but I definitely doubt that they are as readily available and affordable for as much as the population, compared to Italy. When I lived in Maine, lobster was relatively affordable but now that I live in California, it's $30 a pound in my town, with infrequent turnover. And yes, the tomatoes in my garden are pretty damn tasty, but the supermarket ones are crap, and cans of San Marzano tomatoes can easily get pricey, especially when some recipes call for 4 cans. A lot of farmed seafood runs $10 a pound in my town, and wild- caught fish can be $20 a pound. So, I suppose it depends quite a bit where you live. I'm sure there are still plenty of towns in the US where San Marzano tomatoes and high-quality fresh seafood are unknown. And I think it's pretty accepted that high-quality ingredients, while available, are generally more expensive here than in Italy (and many other countries).

But - maybe Italian-American cooking will evolve to reflect the quality ingredients that are more widespread, though often far from ubiquitous or affordable, now?

[janeer]

I wonder if you are mostly talking about the difference between Northern and Southern Italian--many immigrants who settled here in NY/NJ/New England were Southern. I grew up there, eating "Italian American" food--pizza, lasagna, seafood salad, pastas with red sauce, meatballs, chicken and veal cacciatore, etc.

[SylviaLovegren]

I wonder whether it wasn't once true, however, and the habits that inferior (or unfamiliar) ingredients created have never changed to reflect the fact that great stuff is now available. I do think access to ingredients and quantities of ingredients that might have been entirely unthinkable back in Italy contributed to the tendency to 'big up' once-restrained dishes (in Italy itself, many dishes have their roots in 'la miseria', or abject povery, which was what prompted most of the immigrants to leave Italy in the first waves of emigration to the US).

Seems to me that the poor of southern Italy arrived in America and discovered that they could have cheese and meat all the time and celebrated that fact with delicious excess. Not only can we have meatballs with the pasta, we can have BIG meatballs AND cheese!

Incidentally, does anyone know the etymology of "Sunday gravy"? I'd never heard tomato sauce called "gravy" until we lived in Hoboken, NJ.

[weinoo]

Incidentally, does anyone know the etymology of "Sunday gravy"? I'd never heard tomato sauce called "gravy" until we lived in Hoboken, NJ.

Let's find out.

Now, back to the topic at hand...no matter where you live in this country (USA), there are bound to be local ingredients. Cooking with those can, in my opinion, only make your cooking more "Italian."

[Tri2Cook]

It seems to me that Italian tends to lean towards pasta with a little something where Italian-American tends to lean towards something with a little pasta.

As Marcella, Giuliano and Mario taught all of us Italophiles early on, the dish is about the pasta; anything else is condiment.

All I know is, authentic or not, Italian or Italian-American, a lasagna that has lots of pasta with some sauce and cheese between is much more to my preference than a big wet casserole with 2 or 3 layers of pasta floating inside.

[mskerr]

I wonder if you are mostly talking about the difference between Northern and Southern Italian--many immigrants who settled here in NY/NJ/New England were Southern. I grew up there, eating "Italian American" food--pizza, lasagna, seafood salad, pastas with red sauce, meatballs, chicken and veal cacciatore, etc.

I couldn't tell you. Not to start a civil war amongst the Italians here, but I do not know the difference between northern or southern. I have some Marcella Hazan here to read though, where she describes the different regional cuisines. From what you say though, sounds like I'm talking about southern as well.

[weinoo]

I couldn't tell you. Not to start a civil war amongst the Italians here, but I do not know the difference between northern or southern. I have some Marcella Hazan here to read though, where she describes the different regional cuisines. From what you say though, sounds like I'm talking about southern as well.

But you already did .

The most important thing to know is that Italians will argue about food and the way it should be/is prepared, no matter if they're from the north, south, east or west. As a matter of fact, they will argue even in the same household!

[huiray]

I couldn't tell you. Not to start a civil war amongst the Italians here, but I do not know the difference between northern or southern. I have some Marcella Hazan here to read though, where she describes the different regional cuisines. From what you say though, sounds like I'm talking about southern as well.

But you already did .

The most important thing to know is that Italians will argue about food and the way it should be/is prepared, no matter if they're from the north, south, east or west. As a matter of fact, they will argue even in the same household!

...and things like tomatoes are more common in Southern/Central Italian cuisines, ditto dry pasta; more dairy and rice and fresh/formed pastas (e,g, ravioli) in Northern cuisines; etc etc. I knew some people (from the NY/CT/NJ area) who had meals in Venice who were completely surprised that the food there didn't have tomatoes. I heard the sentiment "Whoever heard of Italian food without tomatoes!" being expressed. :-)

The "translated" cuisines in the US appear to ceratinly have regional aspects too - the NE immigrant population was heavy on the Southern/Sicilian heritage, whereas places like LA etc tend to be more Northern/Central Italian, I believe? I've certainly read narrations where someone in LA hosted guests visiting from the Tristate area who found Italian food in LA to be horrible - when what they really meant was that it wasn't the red-sauce type of Southern-derived Italian-American food they had come to expect.

[huiray]

I think most will agree with these statements:

- Italian food can be simple, or it can be complex - but it is mostly simple.
- Italian food is seasonal and emphasizes the quality of the produce.
- Italian food exhibits regional variations such that there might not be a definitive version of one dish

Y'know, one could say all these three things about classic Cantonese cuisine too!

[huiray]

In addition to the comments about USAmericans tending towards going extra heavy with the cheese - another cheese-related difference is cheese with seafood in Italian-American food (and in the US), no cheese (with very rare exceptions) in Italian-Italian food (and in Italy).

Relative cheese consumption with "Italian" dishes (note double quotation marks" in the US also strikes me as varying somewhat with the region too. When I moved from the Tristate area to the Midwest I was taken aback by the amount of cheese poured onto so-called "Italian" dishes (even more than I had noticed in a general sense previously) in all sorts of "Italian" places, which were, of course, more American-Italian places than something else. In my experience. It has been argued by some that cheese is such a typical and integral part of the food landscape in dairy-farming places like the Plains/Midwest that one should not be surprised by folks (speaking generally) desiring lots of cheese with everything. A generalization, of course. This extends even to things in other cuisines like "French Onion Soup", where a long-gone place here in my area used to serve this soup (highly regarded by the local food critic) which, to me, more resembled a crock of melted (and re-hardened) melted cheese with some bread and a vague hint of onion flavor. Heh.

Edited by huiray, 03 December 2012 - 04:58 PM.

[nickrey]

In my opinion it is not just a regional thing. A lot of Sicilian-Italians settled in Australia and my experience with Italian food here is that it is very similar to what I have eaten in Italy. This is very different from what I have seen of American Italian food. For the record, in Italy I will go to a local osteria/trattoria/ristorante and communicate as best I can rather than going to any of the tourist-trap type restaurants.

[SylviaLovegren]

Incidentally, does anyone know the etymology of "Sunday gravy"? I'd never heard tomato sauce called "gravy" until we lived in Hoboken, NJ.

Let's find out.

An interesting discussion, for sure, but still doesn't answer the question. Although the explanation that new immigrants had to choose "sauce" or "gravy" for "sugo" sounds plausible to me. Google so far reveals nothing, except that "gravy" appears across the country in various Italian immigrant communities, and not just in the greater NY area.

[heidih]

Kim Severson's piece about searching for the origins of her mother's red sauce incorporates and addresses some of the points made above about the transition in recipes from Italy to the US. LINK here

[Ashen]

I wonder whether it wasn't once true, however, and the habits that inferior (or unfamiliar) ingredients created have never changed to reflect the fact that great stuff is now available.

Yes, great point.

I agree as well!

I shouldn't have generalized so much. I don't mean that we don't have good raw ingredients, but I definitely doubt that they are as readily available and affordable for as much as the population, compared to Italy. When I lived in Maine, lobster was relatively affordable but now that I live in California, it's $30 a pound in my town, with infrequent turnover. And yes, the tomatoes in my garden are pretty damn tasty, but the supermarket ones are crap, and cans of San Marzano tomatoes can easily get pricey, especially when some recipes call for 4 cans. A lot of farmed seafood runs $10 a pound in my town, and wild- caught fish can be $20 a pound. So, I suppose it depends quite a bit where you live. I'm sure there are still plenty of towns in the US where San Marzano tomatoes and high-quality fresh seafood are unknown. And I think it's pretty accepted that high-quality ingredients, while available, are generally more expensive here than in Italy (and many other countries).

But - maybe Italian-American cooking will evolve to reflect the quality ingredients that are more widespread, though often far from ubiquitous or affordable, now?

Now, back to the topic at hand...no matter where you live in this country (USA), there are bound to be local ingredients. Cooking with those can, in my opinion, only make your cooking more "Italian."

I agree with weinoo.. I know if I was living in Cali , I would be using Stanislaus tomatoes instead of San Marzano. I would use them here even too, but there just isn't as ready a supply as the San Marzano.



To go off a a tangent. I grew up in a city in Canada that had one of the highest population of italian immigrants by % of citizens . They were from all over italy, and the differences in food formed an interesting Microcosm. I come from northern italian extraction trevisano and my best friends family came from abruzzi . My family in italy had a large farm and it showed in our sugo, basically meat based with very little tomato or onion and no garlic.. We used butter or lard instead of olive oil as we were above the butter belt. . When I would eat at my friends house, it was the total opposite. Mostly tomato sauce based, little or no meat, olive oil and plenty of garlic and peperoncino . In fact I think I owe my love of chiles to his grandfather/Shosho. We would sneak into his garden and dare each other to eat the little finger chiles he would grow. These styles were very much in keeping with the regions in italy they came from.. My father would talk about the very rare bottle of olive oil his mother would use for salads in italy, saying it would last for years, and that sometimes it seemed she would just wave it over the salad instead of tipping it enough to actually pour. That restraint I think was just the reality that they couldn't use more even if they wanted too. I think a little extra cheese or butter or oil was put in once they move to north america, simply because they could .

Edited by Ashen, 04 December 2012 - 01:37 AM.

[pastameshugana]

Wait, you mean Olive Garden isn't REAL Italian food?! The horror!!

...I kid, I kid...

Just heard the OG was moving into our (small) town and everyone is delirious with joy that we're going to get 'a real Italian joint' as they say. Ugh.

I'm glad because it means more people at the restaurants I'm at... ;)

[radtek]

The book "Red, White & Greens- The Italian Way with Vegetables" by Faith Willinger really opened my eyes. Simple cooking of what's in season basically appears to be how traditional Italian cooking has been done. Preparing what is in season in continual inventive ways since one'll be eating a lot of particular ingredients- vegetables in this case due to seasonal availability. Here today gone next week until next year so take advantage of the exciting largesse.

And it appears to me that the bulk of Italian recipes aren't complicated or heavily seasoned. In contrast our immigrant population arose from poverty in their homeland in a country of plenty; in particular meat was widely available to a meat-eating society. This had to have been exciting for a people who ate meat rarely and most likely in small portions. So large meat-centric preparations became the focus of the new Italian cuisine. And who could blame them- meat has been consistently and readily available in the States for hundreds of years.

[patrickamory]

All the points are taken, but it feels to me like they've been made many times.

Italian-American cuisine (or more likely cuisines) is very far from its Italian origins, but that doesn't mean it isn't delicious in its own, luxuriant right - "heavily seasoned," with more meat and more fat than the original versions. It's still great home cooking.