44 replies to this topic

[Dakki]

That's my experience with stews too, and, hey, the stuff about fat absorbing flavor makes sense to me. And I think demanding an explanation of why something is true before accepting that it's true is getting it completely backwards. But I think he's saying that if you're going to make a categorical statement you should be able to back it up with something peer-reviewed, which seems fair enough.

[Mjx]

Actually, if you're describing something as being based on your experience, peer review is by no means required. I'm picky as hell about accuracy (I make my living nitpicking), but these days, even less-than-attentive school children are aware of the phenomena of diffusion and oxidation.

[Shalmanese]

Actually, if you're describing something as being based on your experience, peer review is by no means required. I'm picky as hell about accuracy (I make my living nitpicking), but these days, even less-than-attentive school children are aware of the phenomena of diffusion and oxidation.

There are people who still believe that menstruating women prevent sauces from thickening. I don't hold much credence in personal observation unless backed by at least some degree of rigorousness.

For a long time, many people assumed that the "stall" observed in BBQ cooking was due to collagen conversion. While collagen conversion does occur and does take some amount of energy, the observed amounts were orders of magnitude too low to account for stall. It wasn't until Mhyrvold and a couple of other scientists decided to test it that we finally figured out it was almost entirely due to evaporation.

[Dakki]

Actually, if you're describing something as being based on your experience, peer review is by no means required. I'm picky as hell about accuracy (I make my living nitpicking), but these days, even less-than-attentive school children are aware of the phenomena of diffusion and oxidation.

But he wasn't.

Obviously "I think that" or "based on my experience" or "the Bible says" or "my sainted Nanna taught me" obviate the need but if I just up and baldly say "most serial killers prefer the Beatles over the Rolling Stones" you'd be right to ask for my sources. Call me anti-elitist but I'm prejudiced like that.

[Mjx]

Actually, if you're describing something as being based on your experience, peer review is by no means required. I'm picky as hell about accuracy (I make my living nitpicking), but these days, even less-than-attentive school children are aware of the phenomena of diffusion and oxidation.

There are people who still believe that menstruating women prevent sauces from thickening. I don't hold much credence in personal observation unless backed by at least some degree of rigorousness.

For a long time, many people assumed that the "stall" observed in BBQ cooking was due to collagen conversion. While collagen conversion does occur and does take some amount of energy, the observed amounts were orders of magnitude too low to account for stall. It wasn't until Mhyrvold and a couple of other scientists decided to test it that we finally figured out it was almost entirely due to evaporation.

Quite a jump there, from 'observation' to 'statement', since no one can accurately say they've 'observed' that the presence of menstruating women has any effect on food whatsoever; that sort of statement is a 'belief' (if you want to be charitable; 'a lie', 'imbecilic notion', or 'indication of insanity', if you're not feeling charitable), and has no basis in observation, scientific or otherwise.

If I say 'I've observed that the flavour of stews alters overnight', that is an actual observation. if I say, 'I've observed diffusion/oxidation in stews', you'd be completely justified in saying that unless I've correctly used a variety of pieces of equipment to observe and document this, I'm a liar/idiot with no grasp of English. I could say that I've read in a reliable source that this takes place, but frankly, I don't believe that I have read about this occuring in stews, specifically. On the other hand, I have observed diffusion in various substances (using dyes and so on on) in chemistry classes, and it seems reasonable to extrapolate the laws of chemistry from the classroom to the kitchen.

[Shalmanese]

Actually, if you're describing something as being based on your experience, peer review is by no means required. I'm picky as hell about accuracy (I make my living nitpicking), but these days, even less-than-attentive school children are aware of the phenomena of diffusion and oxidation.

There are people who still believe that menstruating women prevent sauces from thickening. I don't hold much credence in personal observation unless backed by at least some degree of rigorousness.

For a long time, many people assumed that the "stall" observed in BBQ cooking was due to collagen conversion. While collagen conversion does occur and does take some amount of energy, the observed amounts were orders of magnitude too low to account for stall. It wasn't until Mhyrvold and a couple of other scientists decided to test it that we finally figured out it was almost entirely due to evaporation.

Quite a jump there, from 'observation' to 'statement', since no one can accurately say they've 'observed' that the presence of menstruating women has any effect on food whatsoever; that sort of statement is a 'belief' (if you want to be charitable; 'a lie', 'imbecilic notion', or 'indication of insanity', if you're not feeling charitable), and has no basis in observation, scientific or otherwise.

If I say 'I've observed that the flavour of stews alters overnight', that is an actual observation. if I say, 'I've observed diffusion/oxidation in stews', you'd be completely justified in saying that unless I've correctly used a variety of pieces of equipment to observe and document this, I'm a liar/idiot with no grasp of English. I could say that I've read in a reliable source that this takes place, but frankly, I don't believe that I have read about this occuring in stews, specifically. On the other hand, I have observed diffusion in various substances (using dyes and so on on) in chemistry classes, and it seems reasonable to extrapolate the laws of chemistry from the classroom to the kitchen.

Plenty of people "observe" things incorrectly all the time. They might "observe" that their favorite high-priced vodka is far smoother than a middle ranged vodka or that this organic egg tastes far better than an industrial egg or that the MSG in Chinese food gives them a headache but it later gets revealed that the vodkas and the eggs were the same and this sample of Chinese food actually contained no MSG.

[nickrey]

Interestingly in the scientific method typically observation precedes experimentation. Testing whether something isn't incorrect is at the heart of the scientific method (note how this is worded).

I've observed that flavours seem more rounded when the stew/curry is left overnight and am tending towards supporting Michaela and others that flavours diffuse through the stew over time, in the same way that we marinate or pickle meat.

Please all the scientists out there, can you either disprove or explain this? Citing a lack of scientific 'proof' is almost as useless as an assertion of faith.

I'd add that saying that I 'know' these things may be taking things a bit far; let's just say that I hypothesise that they are true based on observation.

[Dakki]

What a derail.

The fat-absorbing-flavors mechanism makes sense to me, but certainly requires testing (if this hasn't already been done) before we start bandying it about as The Truth. Texture changes (which I think actually are documented? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) are also IIRC associated with extended resting. Supposing these two things are true, that still doesn't mean everyone's going to experience an improvement, simply because other people may have a completely different idea of what a good stew should taste and feel like.

No sciencetalk here, just pointing out "quality" is a pretty ambiguous concept.

Edited by Dakki, 20 June 2012 - 11:57 AM.

[Shalmanese]

OK, time to bring some empiricism into this.

I made a Linguica, Kale & Potato Soup tonight. I've separated it into three containers:



From left to right, the complete stew, just the broth separated out using a salad spinner & just the solids remaining in the salad spinner.

For the two on the right, diffusion cannot happen. If the diffusion hypothesis is correct, there should be a noticeable taste difference between the samples.

I'm going to let it sit in the fridge for 2 days, then taste a) the whole soup, b) the broth alone and c) the solids alone. I'll try and recruit a couple of friends and see if we can make it double blind. I'll report back in 2 days with the results.

[nickrey]

I never thought of using a salad spinner as a centrifuge. Brilliant! Look forward to your results. Only thing I'd add is to recombine the separated broth and the solids to make the two more equal in sensory terms rather than trying each individually.

[Charcuterer]

The part of the equation that hasn't been discussed is the movement of salt. Like in a brine the sodium is going to move toward equilibrium as the stew sits. This would "balance" the seasoning through the meat and veggies. That would improve the flavor.

Shalmanese if it wouldn't be too much of a hassle it would be great if you could include a freshly made sample and combine the two parts as Nickrey suggested. That would give you a control and two variables. It will be a small sample but would give some starting data.

[Shalmanese]

I never thought of using a salad spinner as a centrifuge. Brilliant! Look forward to your results. Only thing I'd add is to recombine the separated broth and the solids to make the two more equal in sensory terms rather than trying each individually.

The procedure I'm going to use is to put the whole soup in the salad spinner, then combine half the whole soup broth with the whole soup solids and half the separated soup broth with the separated soup solids. There's going to be 3 tests: combined whole soup vs combined separated soup, whole soup broth vs separated soup broth & whole soup solids vs separated soup solids.

I don't have a good idea of how to reheat them evenly though, I was thinking of putting both in the microwave...

The part of the equation that hasn't been discussed is the movement of salt. Like in a brine the sodium is going to move toward equilibrium as the stew sits. This would "balance" the seasoning through the meat and veggies. That would improve the flavor.

Shalmanese if it wouldn't be too much of a hassle it would be great if you could include a freshly made sample and combine the two parts as Nickrey suggested. That would give you a control and two variables. It will be a small sample but would give some starting data.

I think the variance between batches is going to be larger than any changes due to aging. If someone else wants to do an experiment, they should order the same stew dish from a good restaurant 2 days apart and taste them blind, under the assumption that restaurants are better able to control consistency than a home cook.

[Chris Hennes]

I don't have a good idea of how to reheat them evenly though, I was thinking of putting both in the microwave...

Do you have a sous vide setup? Even just a vacuum sealer? The closer they are to the exact same temperature and the exact same re-heat profile the more valid the test will be. Are you planning on a triangle-test setup?

[Shalmanese]

Preliminary update: Haven't had time for a full on tasting yet but I decided to just do a quick tasting of the broth, 2.5 days after making and report back. Had a friend over, I tasted them unblinded, she tasted them blinded.

Summary: There's definitely a difference but it's pretty contrary to my expectations.

Separated Broth: Tastes meatier, richer, slightly darker color, slightly saltier, she said it tasted "more tomatoey"
Combined Broth: Tastes lighter, cleaner, slightly acidic, you can make out the individual flavors easier but they're less integrated.

Overall, both of us rated the separated as tastier and preferred in this tasting.

It's obvious the two broths are different so diffusion is doing something at least although I'm not quite sure what. I was expecting the complete opposite result and had to check my labeling several times to make sure I didn't get them confused.

[Shalmanese]

OK, finally had time to do a full tasting. Soup was in the fridge for 4.5 days.

Procedure: I separated the combined soup using the same salad spinner procedure I used for the separated soup. I did a total of 3 trials, soup, then solids, then combined. For each trial, I put 2 of 1 type & 1 of the other type in some tasting bowls, cooked them in the microwave for 1 minute so I didn't know which was which and tried to see if I could spot the odd one out. I then compared them to some reference soup to confirm my diagnosis.

Trial #1:



On the left is the combined broth, the right is the separated broth. Colorwise, they were pretty much indistinguishable. Taste wise, the difference was moderate but obvious. Like in the preliminary tests, the separated broth had a saltier, roastier, "browner flavor". The combined broth had a slight sourness and tasted far lighter on the tounge.

Trial #2:



On the left is the combined solids, the right is the separated solids. For this, I tasted each major component 1 by 1. The potatoes were indistinguishable from each other as far as I could tell. The Kale, the difference was large. The kale from the separated soup was bland and dry, the combined soup, it was much juicer and noticably more savory. For the Linguica, the difference was mild. If there was any difference, it was that the separated was slightly spicer.

Trial 3:



On the left is the combined soup, on the right is the separated. While the separated broth tasted more savory, I would have to say, when you combine it, the combined evens out a bit more. With the combined, the flavors are a bit more harmonious and meld better together. I'd say they were both noticeably different but I'm not entirely sure which is better.

Overall, it was an interesting experiment and I'd love to see other people replicate it with some other dishes. Noticeably in this one was there there were no braised meats where resting for a day or two might have a significant effect on the texture.