99 replies to this topic

[Fat Guy]

In each instance I microwaved on high for 1 minute after separating the curds, but it didn't seem to move them toward anything usable. I did an additional minute on a later attempt and it also made no difference. It was clear just from mushing the curds around that we were never going to move out of the cottage cheese phase.

[Fat Guy]

The answer is, most likely, that it was the brand of milk that was at issue. I tried two new brands just now, and one of them -- Five Acre Farms Local Milk -- has turned into something like mozzarella. There's a lot I still need to learn about the stretching and forming. The other brand of milk produced more cottage cheese. I also switched to bottled water but I imagine this is not the issue, since one worked and one didn't. But I will backtrack in subsequent experiments to see what happens.

[Fat Guy]

What about taking a little road trip down to DiPalo's and ask if you can watch them make theirs?

I don't know that DiPalo or any of the local places will have relevant knowledge. They purchase their curds, I believe, and the problems I've been asking about have to do with making curds. I'm sure Polly-O or another curd supplier has knowledge, but I figure they use industrial processes that wouldn't be relevant to me.

[weinoo]

What about taking a little road trip down to DiPalo's and ask if you can watch them make theirs?

I don't know that DiPalo or any of the local places will have relevant knowledge. They purchase their curds, I believe, and the problems I've been asking about have to do with making curds. I'm sure Polly-O or another curd supplier has knowledge, but I figure they use industrial processes that wouldn't be relevant to me.

Ahhh, quite true. Maybe you can get Ann Saxelby to give you two a lesson!

[TheTInCook]

The rennet by the way is Marschall M-50 Vegetable Rennet.

Vegetable rennet tends to make a softer curd.

[Shalmanese]

I'm sure Polly-O or another curd supplier has knowledge, but I figure they use industrial processes that wouldn't be relevant to me.

I like to browse through Google Books because occasionally, it'll have a big enough snippet of a food science book to be useful. For example, on page 150 of this book, it talks about some of the factors of curd formation including pH and calcium.

[JTravel]

I'm also intrigued - why did you add water to the citric acid? When I curdle milk for cheese I simply bring the milk to the boil, turn the heat down to ultra low and then add lemon juice, or actually more commonly I add slightly soured yoghurt. In addition, if you are using an acid, why is rennet also required? This is just a question out of curiousity, I do not claim to know anything at all! I have never made mozzarella but this looks very interesting.

I know this is about Mozzarella, but could you post your method for making paneer with yogurt. How does one get "slightly soured yogurt"? Let it spoil, add acid? This whole cheese thing is interesting with all the different methods.
Thanks

[Jenni]

Absolutely. Bring milk to the boil. Lower the heat to the lowest setting and add yoghurt. You can sour the yoghurt by keeping it out of the fridge for a few hours in a warmish place. Let me see, I think for 8 cups/2 litres of milk you might use 1-1/2 cups yoghurt. Stir gently in one direction. The curds will separate out leaving greenish looking whey. As soon as this happens remove from the heat and strain through a piece of muslin (keep the whey for adding to soup, dal, etc. or for using instead of water to make roti. Also many paneer dishes utilise the whey instead of adding water). Rinse the bundle with cool water. The idea is to not heat the curds at this point as it can toughen them. Now you can press the cheese for varying lengths of time, depending on what you are making.

[mkayahara]

FWIW, when I had this problem, the solution seemed to be "add more rennet." Even then, my curd was pretty crumbly, but it eventually came together with kneading. I wasn't heating the curds in the microwave, though; I used hot water. Our processes - not to mention milk - might be different enough that this isn't much help to you, though...

[Fat Guy]

We may experiment with using more or different rennet. Though, the half tablet is supposed to coagulate 25 liters of milk -- I wonder just how much more it's worth trying.

[tikidoc]

Vegetable rennet just does not work as well as animal rennet, at least in my experience. Even at a higher "dose", the curd is just not as firm.

If you want to give this a real try, I would get online and order a small bottle of animal rennet and give it another try. It's pretty cheap, since it takes very little to make a batch of cheese.

http://www.cheesemak...imalRennet.html

Edited by tikidoc, 30 April 2012 - 12:50 PM.

[Fat Guy]

I wonder how one gets hold of the lab-created, synthetic rennet that's the same as animal rennet. Isn't that what most commercial producers are now using?

[tikidoc]

http://sargentwelch....r:referralID=NA

From Wikipedia, "CHY-MAX® is bovine chymosin produced by the biotech company Chr. Hansen A/S. CHY-MAX® is produced by fermentation of the fungus Aspergillus niger. Bovine chymosin is an enzyme that causes milk to curdle. Being a non animal derived product, CHY-MAX® is suitable for consumption by vegetarians, as well as for production of cheese certified Kosher or Halal."

[Jenni]

Vegetable rennet must work well enough because as a vegetarian, I only buy cheese made with non animal rennet and the mozzarella has always been fine.

[andiesenji]

I've been using liquid vegetable rennet for years with no problems.

I do add calcium chloride for most cheeses to get a firmer curd. I think the problem is usually with the ultra pasteurized milk.

For some cheeses I buy the NON ultra pasteurized Manufacturing Cream (Alta Dena here in CA) and mix it half and half with supermarket fat free milk.

I think this mixture gives me enough of the non super heated milk fat to produce a good, firm curd that I use for aged cheeses made with cultures.

[TheTInCook]

I wonder how one gets hold of the lab-created, synthetic rennet that's the same as animal rennet. Isn't that what most commercial producers are now using?

Microbial rennet. Most internet cheese supply retailers sell it.

Edited by TheTInCook, 30 April 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[TheTInCook]

I think there might be a double effect going on here with the '30 minute' citric acid mozerella. Pasteurization reduces the amount of available calcium in the milk, and the citrate in the citric acid sequesters calcium. Leading to poor curds.

For this kind of cheese, you want something that looks like this http://cheeseforum.o...heeseforum-org/

Not ricotta.

I think this mixture gives me enough of the non super heated milk fat to produce a good, firm curd that I use for aged cheeses made with cultures.

I thought the problem with the high temp pasteurization was that it messed with the casein micelles.

[andiesenji]

I think there might be a double effect going on here with the '30 minute' citric acid mozerella. Pasteurization reduces the amount of available calcium in the milk, and the citrate in the citric acid sequesters calcium. Leading to poor curds.

For this kind of cheese, you want something that looks like this http://cheeseforum.o...heeseforum-org/

Not ricotta.

I think this mixture gives me enough of the non super heated milk fat to produce a good, firm curd that I use for aged cheeses made with cultures.

I thought the problem with the high temp pasteurization was that it messed with the casein micelles.

I'm sure you are correct. I used to get regular pasteurized milk that was non-homogenized (cream top) or sometimes I could get milk locally from a friend who has cows. Unfortunately, she married and moved over to Hesperia, which is a bit too far to drive for milk. I have an electric pasteurizer and did pasteurize all the milk I used. That milk made wonderful cheeses.

I experimented with various combinations and finally settled on the mix with the manufacturers cream, which I also use to make butter.

[Fat Guy]

I wonder how one gets hold of the lab-created, synthetic rennet that's the same as animal rennet. Isn't that what most commercial producers are now using?

Microbial rennet. Most internet cheese supply retailers sell it.

Do you have a link? I've only seen animal and vegetable rennet on the cheesemaking sites.

[tikidoc]

I wonder how one gets hold of the lab-created, synthetic rennet that's the same as animal rennet. Isn't that what most commercial producers are now using?

Microbial rennet. Most internet cheese supply retailers sell it.

Do you have a link? I've only seen animal and vegetable rennet on the cheesemaking sites.

Look upthread, I posted a link.

[Fat Guy]

Just to clarify, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that there are 3 rennet options:

1. Animal rennet

2. Vegetable rennet

3. "Microbial" rennet, which is an analog of animal rennet but made in the lab

I have not seen 3 on any of the cheesemaking sites, only on the lab sites. I'll order some from a lab company if that's the only option, but would rather support the cheesemaking people. You indicated that most internet cheesemaking supply sites sell the microbial rennet, and I wasn't able to find that. Looking upthread, I don't see a link that helps on that front, but I can easily miss things because I'm dumb.

[mkayahara]

OK, what is vegetable rennet? Are we talking thistle extracts here? I always assumed that "vegetarian rennet" was microbial rennet.

Edit: My cheesemaking supplier, for instance, lists only calf rennet and microbial rennet.

Edited by mkayahara, 01 May 2012 - 06:40 AM.

[andiesenji]

There are actually two types of microbial rennet that were developed for commercial use and the one derived from molds is specifically forbidden for use by the European Food Safety Authority because of safety concerns with the "parent" molds.
Cheeses made from this rennet often have a bitter flavor. (I don't know why.)

The other type is the genetically engineered Chymosin (Chymax) made when cow genes are inserted into bacteria, fungi or yeasts and this is produced mostly from aspergillus niger.
I don't like to use any genetically modified product and I want nothing to do with aspergillus niger or anything derived from it.

One caveat. Soy proteins are used in the production of Chymosin and people that are allergic to soy can react adversely.

[Jenni]

Just as an extra bit of info, here is a vegetarian rennet commonly seen in the UK in supermarkets and other shops. It's made from "Mucor Miehei" apparently and after looking that up on Wikipedia I am confused as to whether it is "vegetable" or "microbial" or indeed what the exact difference is. I am only skim reading though, 'tis late here. Fascinating stuff though and plan to have a proper read up on it all tomorrow.

Edited by Jenni, 01 May 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Fat Guy]

Rennet nomenclature turns out to be more complex than I'd imagined. I hope someone will present a definitive taxonomy.

[andiesenji]

You can start with this brief abstract.

On the right side you will see a list of other reviews and abstracts dealing with this subject.

There have been numerous studies at universities all over the world that evaluated various types of rennet.
Some time ago I read an informative one from a uni in India but can't find it right now.

I subscribe to Culture magazine (quarterly publication) and saw a mention of that study in an earlier issue.

[OliverB]

I haven't made it in a while, but I used Ricky Carrol's recipe from Home Cheese Making and it came out great. I used fresh whole milk from Whole Foods (thus creating the most expensive moz I've ever eaten) figuring it'll be better with "better" mils and if I go through the process, might as well.

I did wear rubber gloves I bought for that purpose, the hot curd 'rubber' is pretty - well - hot. It worked well the two or three times I did it, eventually I figured it's not worth the effort, as I can buy very nice moz at Whole Foods that's just as fine.

But I like the idea of this as a science project, I have to keep that in mind!

[TheTInCook]

I recieved some new dry calf rennet (powdered, ~8% pepsin) and some cultures from Steve Shapson's website yesterday. I'm going to put this 30 minute mozzerella to the test once I get some milk.

[TheTInCook]

I'm going to try this in a little bit, using the same method as Fat Guy
http://www.cheesemak...ellacheese.html

[TheTInCook]

Initial results are discouraging. I got some instant curdling when I added the diluted citric acid (1.5 t citric acid in 1 c bottled water). Possible cause: recipe calls for the dilute acid to be added to COLD milk. I had left the milk on the counter when I got home this afternoon so it would warm up a little bit. It was around 75-80 degrees when I added the citric acid.

I wonder if I'll get a clean break.